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TedsDead


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Quote:
verum subsequentis said: Yeah, i need a different type than they sell.
hmm... what type then?
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
Posts: 4,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TedsDead]
#26436908 - 01/16/20 02:21 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Grow shops sell co2 meters that jst activate a relay to release more co2. They dnt tell you info about co2 levels
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jbgtaa
extraterrestrial



Registered: 06/09/19
Posts: 1,785
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Is CO2 truly that important for mushrooms? I mean, just anecdotally, I don’t think my tubs hold very much CO2 and they usually grow just fine. Do mushrooms have the same properties as plants in regards to its carbon or nitrogen fixation?
-------------------- If the thunder don't get ya, the lightning will. In another time's forgotten space, your eyes looked through your mother's face. Trade List Forever giving away prints. PM at anytime for a free print.
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Grimsweeper
don't fear the sweeper


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 4,843
Loc: broom closet
Last seen: 7 days, 15 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: jbgtaa]
#26437029 - 01/16/20 03:39 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I think verums concern was for his own health. Concern makes sense for some people with tubs lined up and down the walls.
-------------------- When you clean a vacuum cleaner you are a vacuum cleaner Build yourself a Flow Hood in these 99 simple steps
 
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footpath
ὕδωρχοίρος

Registered: 07/16/19
Posts: 1,367
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Grimsweeper]
#26437051 - 01/16/20 03:49 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I mean... they obviously respire. So, to some degree, the level of carbon dioxide in the air is going to have an impact on their overall growth. And I dunno, maybe verum's, too - mycelial growth does produce CO2. Traditional practice in Agaricus farming is to lower the CO2 level by something like 0.1%.
Much of this site is proof that those levels are clearly not all that critical so long as air is being exchanged to some degree.
But... optimally?
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tedoro
ToadStool Tender



Registered: 02/06/15
Posts: 2,206
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: footpath]
#26437058 - 01/16/20 03:55 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I grow in mono's in a closet and I've always wondered the CO2 levels in both the monotub itself and the closet. Its pretty hard for me to estimate the breathing that is going on with a brick of substrate. But I know its happening. Very interested in some metering happening. And I bet this is all very well understood in large commercial grows.
-------------------- -------------------- Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC
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AyePlus
Stony Danza



Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 3,393
Loc: Fairfield, Connecticut
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: jbgtaa]
#26437116 - 01/16/20 04:34 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
jbgtaa said: Is CO2 truly that important for mushrooms? I mean, just anecdotally, I don’t think my tubs hold very much CO2 and they usually grow just fine. Do mushrooms have the same properties as plants in regards to its carbon or nitrogen fixation?
Mushrooms are like people, they use oxygen and expel CO2. So to answer your question, yes! If you were constantly having trouble breathing, would you thrive?
And no mushrooms are nothing like plants, they're much closer to animals, with inside-out stomach/brains. They do need nitrogen(which they get from the grain) and also carbon, which they get from the coir and the grain.
Nitrogen is basically tantamount to energy, its the thing most organisms need the most of to grow.
Nitrogen phosphorus and potassium are the “macro-nutrients” that pretty much everything needs a fair bit of.
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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
Posts: 4,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: AyePlus]
#26437269 - 01/16/20 06:12 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Yeah fungus is odd shit. Phototropic not photosynthetic. Bends to light, grows healthier with light, dnt knw why.
Oh im totally excited to see what Verum comes up with. I wanna knw how shrooms feel about levels of gasses. I'd guess that they dnt require too much o2 or expel too much co2 cuz i got plate pins like mad that mature and sporulate 'n shit. Cant be much gasses in a sealed dish. But idk im justa scrub.
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AyePlus
Stony Danza



Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 3,393
Loc: Fairfield, Connecticut
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Feasoghorm]
#26437389 - 01/16/20 07:26 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I mean, humans don’t “need” light. But lack of vitamin D can make a person super irritable and depressed. Mushrooms also produce vitamin D from light somehow so seems like a legit analogy to me.
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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
Posts: 4,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: AyePlus]
#26437404 - 01/16/20 07:33 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Oh they do? I thought light was like part of fungi mental health. I guess in a way it may be.
Humans dnt need light? I'd imagine we wud turn into some kinda cave critter without it.
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shroomgirl645
Microdoser extraordinaire 🍄😊🍄



Registered: 12/03/19
Posts: 151
Loc: The Shroom Shack
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Caps McGee]
#26437415 - 01/16/20 07:39 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I've got a couple tubs that are coincidentally 17 days from spawn today. they seem to be still colonizing. does temperature make a difference? I don't keep my place hotter than I need to for my personal comfort
-------------------- New to Shroom Cultivation | Current Status: Tubs 3/5/2020 1&2 (Fruiting)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 9 days
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I wanted to get this explanation out there, for folks who have a misunderstanding, or just don't know these details. Let me know what you think! Very long paper incoming, with explanations for each step:
Definitions:
Strain: A genetically distinct member of the species, which can be a monokaryon, or a dikaryon. Every spore in a print yields a genetically distinct monokaryon, so every spore could be said to contain a strain. My usage of the word here is mostly referring to dikaryotic strains capable of fruiting.
Nucleus(ei): The best part of a cell, which contains all of the DNA. It houses all the genetics of an organism, and ultimately controls every single process or trait. Tasty, but you need a lot of them for a good meal.
Plasmogamy: The open exchange of cytoplasm and cellular contents between two cells, preceded by anastomosis. For fungi, it represents fusion and exchange of nuclei.
Anastomosis: The fusion of two hyphae, technically the term refers to the fusion of two tubes.
Mono-karyon: Single-Seed, a fungal colony where each cell only contains a single set of the genome, haploid.
Di-karyon: Two-seed, a fungal colony where each cell contains two sets of the genome, somewhat similar to diploidy.
Spore: The propagule formed by a fungus, in this case a sexual spore produced by a mushroom. It is haploid, containing a single set of genetics, and germinates to form a monokaryon.
Mushroom: Seriously?
Colony: A single individual, the collective reference to a single cohesive strain in the form of mycelium. There can be multiple colonies of the same strain, but not multiple strains of the same colony.
Meiosis: The fusion of two unique nuclei, followed by segregation, recombination, and division into new unique nuclei that contain genetics from both parents, but in new combinations. Mutation can produce novel genes possessed by neither parent. See; SEX (but not mating, which is separate in fungi).
FIRST PAGE
1:
A mushroom releases spores, each of varying genetics and mating type. Each spore is represented by a different color, R, B, G, or Y. A single spore is haploid, carrying only a single set of the genome.
2:
The spores germinate as a group, forming multiple colonies that also only possess a single set of the genome, making them “monokaryotic”, and making the colonies “monokaryons”.
3:
If compatible, the hyphae of two monokaryons will fuse into a new colony, possessing both of their sets. This colony is “dikaryotic”, and is called a “dikaryon”. It is illustrated as purple, being a fusion of the red and blue monokaryons.
3a:
An illustration of the transfer of genetic material: Each cell in the monokaryon contains just a single nucleus of identical genetics. Upon fusion (anastomosis), one of the colonies (red in this case) will donate nuclei through a portal formed by their fusion (plasmogamy). The new cells containing both red and blue nuclei are dikaryotic, and behave much differently from monokaryons. The cells are wider, grow faster, and form clamp connections which coordinate the pairing of the nuclei into new cells. Now that two sets of genetic material are present, sex (meiosis) is possible.
4:
The dikaryons are illustrated as purple and orange, for convenience, though in reality it would be a rainbow of colors, one for each dikaryon. Not all purple or orange colonies are the same genetically, each one represents a unique dikaryon.
Dikaryons grow way faster than monokaryons, and as soon as they are formed, start to outgrow their parent colonies. The dikaryons are incompatible and stay separate from one another, unlike monokaryons they will not fuse or exchange genetics. Now that their goal is fruiting, it is a territory dispute, rather than a fuckfest. They radiate away from the original group of monokaryons.
5:
Each of these dikaryons will grow and dominate territory until enough resources have been accumulated that it decides to fruit (ignoring the many environmental factors involved). The mycelium of the dikaryotic colony goes through a series of changes, and through the process of primordial initiation. The mycelium making up the mushroom is identical in every way to the mycelium it came from, it is all the same purple dikaryotic cells. Even if there are multiple dikaryons overlaid and directly involved with one another, their genetics stay separate, and fruitbody formation is performed only by a single colony without involvement from any other. At this point in time we are far from the point where genetics are flexible.
5a:
An example of what does not happen. Two dikaryons, two strains, will not work together to produce a fruitbody, no matter how many of them are present and overlapping. It is hard enough for a single colony to coordinate with itself to produce such a complex structure, let alone for two unrelated colonies (who want eachother dead) to work together and make it happen. This is not even really up for debate, it is just a basic fact of fungal biology. Some oddballs like Armillaria have segregate tissues made up of haploid, dikaryotic, and diploid mycelia, but the vast majority of agaricoid species (including Psilocybe) have homogenous tissue, each cell being identical (except for the basidia, which are briefly diploid, and the spores, which are haploid).
NEXT PAGE
1:
In cultivation, spores are used a few ways, I’ll show a couple.
2:
The spores are placed on agar, usually through a spore solution or scrape. These spores germinate to form monokaryons. Visually, this is the first growth you’ll see, forming a small patchy group extending the area you inoculated.
3:
Eventually, the compatible monokaryotic colonies will start fusing with eachother, and forming dikaryons. On agar, these manifest as a sudden increase in growth rate starting at the edge of the area inoculated. In my experiments, the monokaryons don’t actually grow very far beyond the area you inoculate, the first growth to start dramatically extending past it is all dikaryotic.
It does depend on the amount of spores you used, but in almost all scenarios a very large amount of dikaryons are going to form somewhat simultaneously, all trying to get as much colonized as they can. Rapidly, the ones most capable of outcompeting (which may or may not be correlated with growth rate) sort out and the number of active dikaryons drastically reduces. You won’t really see the massive amount of dikaryons formed, because most of them never get very big. You only see the successful ones.
As they get bigger, growth rate or appearance will make them noticeably different from one another, they’ll form what people call sectors. There is some level of overlap, but the very front margin of a sector should be almost entirely a single colony.
4:
With proper isolation methods, you can separate one of the dikaryotic sectors and “isolate” it away from all of the others (I’m not sure why people need to make 4 damn transfers, you can do it in a single step). This produces a single colony, the same all around. These are not always symmetrical, not always even, and the growth rate and morphology can change over time.
5a:
You then inoculate spawn or inoculant with this isolate, allowing inoculation with a single strain.
5b:
Spores added directly to spawn or inoculant, where steps 2-3 take place uncontrolled within the substrate, skipping step 4 altogether. This means that you can have many many dikaryons colonizing the substrate at once, competing for space and resources.
6a:
Substrate inoculated with a single colony will colonize quickly and contain the same genetics throughout, it will be totally clonal. The fruits produced by this colony will all be the same genetically, cloning from any one of them will yield the same exact isolate, identical to the one in step 4. Because the substrate is colonized by a single colony, all of the resources have been available and utilized towards its growth, and fruiting takes place more or less evenly across the entire surface, cooperatively.
6b:
Substrate inoculated with multiple dikaryons will often divide into a patchwork, as each one grows and walls the others off. Because they do not cooperate, the substrate gets divided up into territories, and each one only gets a small portion of the resources, rather than all of them. Each colony will fruit on its own timeline, with its own traits, separate from the others. You can get multiple phenotypes or “varieties” in a single tub/fruiting. In this scenario, cloning different mushrooms may well get you genetically distinct isolates, unless you accidentally clone two from the same colony. The reduced amount of available resources means that each colony is only producing a small portion of what it could given the whole tub. Fruiting tends to be sparse and inconsistent, with smaller overall fruits. In terms of outright yield, this method tends to be lower, and less consistent.
Even though there are multiple colonies overlapping, multiple colonies fruiting, you cannot get multiple strains from the same mushroom. Each one still only contains mycelium from the colony that made it, and that colony is a single dikaryon with a set amount of genetics. There is only one individual there.
CONCLUSION
The main takeaway is that while yes, there are technically two strains comprising a dikaryon, two strains inside a fruitbody, they ceased to exist as individuals in step 3 on the first page. From that moment on there is only a single cell type in the mycelium, and the fruitbody is only made of that mycelium. Thus, cloning a mushroom from any source, any place or origin, will yield only a single dikaryotic strain per mushroom. I think people see asymmetrical results on their first tissue culture, and think it represents multiple genetics. There are a few reasons for that.
The trauma of transfer means that not all sides of the tissue will jump off equally, one side tends to do better than the others, making a large “sector” appear surrounded by sparse young growth.
Not all colonies are symmetrical, even under ideal conditions, some isolates just grow with uneven margins or dead zones. Light can play a role in this, as is seen in Schizophyllum commune and a few other species.
Occasionally, and especially with newer people, spore contamination can occur, producing actually different strains on the tissue clone plate. These should be small and short lived, generally not an issue, but with proper technique (or collecting before sporulation), it should not be occurring.
Genetic damage can occur from the trauma of cloning, potentially producing new colony types or faulty looking sectors.
Sometimes there isn’t an explanation, and what appear to be sectors are present. This does not justify the prospect of there being multiple strains in a fruitbody. There is just so much evidence, such a large amount of precedent showing that this isn’t the case. Whatever may be going on, it is not the presence of multiple strains. Every single hyphae showing up on that plate came from the same genetic source, the same individual.

Posted on Facebook thought I'd post it here
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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AyePlus
Stony Danza



Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 3,393
Loc: Fairfield, Connecticut
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: cronicr]
#26437532 - 01/16/20 09:21 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Yaaa boiii.
Sidnee is the shit, I save every thing instructional he posts, Love that order of kwisats group that he mods too.
Only thing that trips me out is he works open air with upside down petris, he treats each petri like its own SAB or something. It is all done in a lab that I’m sure has filtered air, but its still wild to me.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 9 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: AyePlus]
#26437540 - 01/16/20 09:26 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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That's because he uses starving agar and is a book nerd as opposed to an actual cultivator
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Hobbit GDF
Deadhead



Registered: 02/14/19
Posts: 3,386
Loc: Terrapin station
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: cronicr] 1
#26437955 - 01/17/20 07:28 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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PE6
With my 4qt spawn 58qt mono has put out about 95%BE. I got 107g dry. 100% would been 113g dry. I was really close. I'm so happy with this clone.
 Now time to make a master slant to keep.
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MLPismyOPSEC
That One Ponyfucker


Registered: 11/13/18
Posts: 884
Loc: Equestria? Mordor? Wester...
Last seen: 11 days, 11 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Hobbit GDF]
#26437980 - 01/17/20 07:45 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Here's what I got for ordering two """AA941s""" 
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Hobbit GDF
Deadhead



Registered: 02/14/19
Posts: 3,386
Loc: Terrapin station
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: MLPismyOPSEC]
#26438200 - 01/17/20 09:43 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
MLPismyOPSEC said: Here's what I got for ordering two """AA941s""" 

Do they like fix it or refund you? Where did you guys order these at again?
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,782
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 5 hours, 43 minutes
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Hobbit GDF]
#26438220 - 01/17/20 09:54 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Lol it’s like they just send out whatever’s laying around.
Better than a bracelet though.
You only got one item?
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LAGM2020     
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verum subsequentis
seeker of truth



Registered: 03/22/16
Posts: 8,732
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: A.k.a]
#26438273 - 01/17/20 10:23 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Regarding co2 levels, my interest in it is for myself and for my mushrooms. Last time i went to visit a shiitake farm i do some work for we did some testing of co2 levels at found that the grow area was borderline fucking death. I haven't done a lot of research into it but i know we do a lot better breathing o2.
Quote:
Fucking google said
Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, coma, asphyxia, and convulsions.
That sounds far from good for you, me or our magical friends.
We all know what happens to fruits trying to mature without adequate fresh air. I just want to dial my game up another notch and make sure i'm not poisoning myself or my magic.
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Huskies
Boop More Snoots



Registered: 03/22/16
Posts: 1,048
Last seen: 1 day, 5 hours
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I forgot to put paper towels over my pastyplates. Am I fucked, or should they still be fine?
-------------------- I call them Huskies cause you tell them to go "Mush! Mush""
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