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OfflineRandalf the Grey
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Sankhara]
    #26384667 - 12/16/19 08:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Freezing it would be my preferred method.


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Randalf the Grey
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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Sankhara]
    #26384668 - 12/16/19 08:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If you want to make an extract, that's what mush tea is. You don't have to actually add tea to it. The alkaloids are water soluble, thus boiling them produces a solution. With fancy equipment i suspect one could produce powder, but IDK how stable it would really be exposed to air in that state, maybe someone more knowledgeable could chime in on that bit. If your friend has refrigeration then a chilled water solution would be best for a basic extract. If you were to process it into edibles then perhaps refrigeration could be less necessary.


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OfflineSankhara
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat]
    #26384682 - 12/16/19 08:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Freezing could be an option... but i'd rather make a more shelf stable extraction.

Would making tea, reducing it and mixing it with 40% or so ethanol be a good option? Alcohol would prevent microbilogical degradation and doses could be volumetric simple and as far as i am concerned very shelfstable


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Sankhara]
    #26384694 - 12/16/19 08:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know about degradation, but if you want to add alcohol to minimize microbial growth then yes that would certainly help. I have made "swamp juice" in which I simply added powdered mush to moonshine and it kept well enough. I would use something strong like 151, Everclear, or undiluted moonshine. Mix that into your solution until you reach 80-100 proof.


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Sankhara]
    #26384699 - 12/16/19 08:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If you're gonna make tea, reduce it and then add sprits, why not just use spirits to begin with? Reducing it is going to degrade the actives unless you do it under vacuum. Or use less water so you don't have to reduce it. Solvent management is critical in extractions esp in small batches. This is a chem generalization. If the goal is tincture then just start with alcohol. All the good stuff is water sol so it will be alcohol sol as well.
Psilocybin conversion to psilocin and extraction this basically uses water and vinegar. Glacial acetic acid is vinegar without water in it. When they say dilute glacial acetic acid they're basically saying white vinegar. The last steps for recrystallization don't matter for you tincture. You don't need to evap in nitrogen bath at the end, you could just as easily evap off the ammonia under vacuum using an aspirator and a bucket of ice water with a water pump. This will boil off the solvent at room temp, protecting your extract from degrading under heat.


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Edited by spiritlands (12/16/19 09:03 AM)


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: spiritlands]
    #26384726 - 12/16/19 09:14 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Why would reduction degrade the alkaloids? The conversion with acetic acid is cool especially the production method for producing pure powder as described. So to go straight to alcohol, maybe if you heated it in the alcohol just under the boiling  point.

I thought the consensus was boiling temperature doesn't degrade the alkaloids.

Why do you need to hit it with the ammonium hydroxide if not going to powder?


Edited by Failboat (12/16/19 09:20 AM)


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OfflineRandalf the Grey
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: spiritlands]
    #26384730 - 12/16/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't tried this, but if your goal is a shelf stable tincture, instead of trying to extract in water and then reduce, extract using lemon juice and then add your alcohol. Will be no need to reduce and should be able to make it shelf stable as you described.

I would suggest a longer soak than for making lemonade but should work the same.


--------------------
Randalf the Grey
Lost in the right direction
A wizard is never late..........but I can try
Randalf's Book of Genesis: In The Beginning - Teks, ratios, recipes and log entries
LAGM2O2O Grow Log
Genesis II: Electric Boogaloo - The Restart


Edited by Randalf the Grey (12/16/19 09:31 AM)


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OfflineSankhara
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Randalf the Grey]
    #26384767 - 12/16/19 09:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Randalf the Grey said:
I haven't tried this, but if your goal is a shelf stable tincture, instead of trying to extract in water and then reduce, extract using lemon juice and then add your alcohol. Will be no need to reduce and should be able to make it shelf stable as you described.

I would suggest a longer soak than for making lemonade but should work the same.



That would work for sure

The reason i dont want to extract with ethanol is because i have read over an over that acohol is not a good solvent for psilocybin. So making tea and adding alcohol would seem a good idea.

Perhaps everclear wpuld work as it already has water content


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Sankhara]
    #26384785 - 12/16/19 09:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

All liquor has water. Everclear, has the least. So it seems that chilling your solution is rather important, but what temperature does psilocin actually degrade at and how quickly?

In any case were getting pretty far from cultivation discussion. I'm gonna go pour plates and streak these APE, RW, and KSSS.:rockon:


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Offlineinorganik
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat]
    #26384983 - 12/16/19 11:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)




Hey guys, does my newly constructed almost finished 2' x 3' FH look fucked? I am thinking I will lay it on its back and silicone over the tear & test it in a day or two. Still need to wire up and attach the blower but that's it. Really hope this goes well wish me luck everyone!


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: inorganik]
    #26384994 - 12/16/19 12:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Bent aluminum fins is no big deal you can bend them back with 2 chopsticks,
but that hole looks serious. How deep down the fin does it go? Is it a long tear
or a puncture hole?


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Offlineinorganik
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26385019 - 12/16/19 12:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is more of a puncture hole than a long tear tbh. I believe it occured when I was installing the outer wire mesh which is made of metal. The pointy edge must have gotten it :/ damn thing was suppose to PROTECT not PUNCTURE it


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat] * 1
    #26385176 - 12/16/19 01:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
Why would reduction degrade the alkaloids? The conversion with acetic acid is cool especially the production method for producing pure powder as described. So to go straight to alcohol, maybe if you heated it in the alcohol just under the boiling  point.

I thought the consensus was boiling temperature doesn't degrade the alkaloids.

Why do you need to hit it with the ammonium hydroxide if not going to powder?



It's can degrade them if ppl use to much solvent which is common for ppl new to extractions of any kind. This is a general statement for alkaloids, may not be gospel for mushrooms but I know plenty of ppl that boiled it and bunked good shrooms so it does happen I just don't know at what point. Ppl get impatient and turn up the heat. Most ppl won't take the time to set up a vacuum aspirator even though you can do it under $20. I can boil water from the heat from the palm of my hand only using vacuum. This is the proper way for evaporating and concentration a solution.

A better way is called a Soxhlet extractor which is a glorified coffee maker. You put the material to be extracted in it and a small amount of solvent. As it heats up solvent condenses in the top extracting the material. When it fills up past a point it siphons it into the bottom vessel. The solvent is reboiled and continues again. You can extract 100% of the substance using a very small amount of water or whatever your solvent is. If this is done under vacuum like I mentioned it can also be done at room temp eliminating chances of heat decomposing your molecule. I don't think psilocin or psylocibin are destroyed but oxidized into inactive compounds. This is basic chem but the quality of the product using a soxhlet is outstanding. Using this device you can concentrate as much as you want using maybe 100ml of solvent.

Water is a better solvent than alcohol in this case. methanol is better than ethanol but methanol will make you blind or kill you even at low doses. When I run any reaction or extraction pull up then Chem properties to find the best solvent and knowing what it's insoluble in can help for filtering out unwanted substances with similar solubility. This is why they used ether but any non polar solvent would likely work.

My guess on the ammonia (aqueous ammonia hydroxide) is bc psilocin and psylocibin are alkaloid meaning they are produced as a free base. The acid binds to the molecule. They pH to 4 during the conversion but in order to produce a neutral product they freebase it with ammonia. Weak acid/weak base, gentle on the molecule. This procedure was to produce samples for analysis, they dont want salts in the sample. In this case the byproduct of neutralizing it is ammonium acetate. I don't know off hand it's solubility but I suspect it's soluble in ether and is removed at that step.

Last thing. The alkaloids in mushrooms oxidize faster as a powder so when we heat them whole like in a dehydrator or perhaps when making tea, the body of the mushroom protects the insides from oxidation. Maybe this contributes to the controversy?


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Germinating old spores progress page
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:spiralflip::spiralflip:




Edited by spiritlands (12/16/19 02:07 PM)


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: spiritlands]
    #26385216 - 12/16/19 02:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

....or boil some water toss in some shrooms drink the liquid and trip balls.

Now you're telling us I need to use heat from the palm of my hand...? shit you lost me:shrug:


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
    #26385219 - 12/16/19 02:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Thats not what he's saying..

He's saying that using a vacuum to reduce volume is better because water will
boil at room temp under a vacuum.


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
    #26385230 - 12/16/19 02:10 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
....or boil some water toss in some shrooms drink the liquid and trip balls.

Now you're telling us I need to use heat from the palm of my hand...? shit you lost me:shrug:



No I'm talking about the right way to extract alkaloids in general. When you have good equipment this is how it's done. Doesn't mean a microwave and a coffee cup won't work. But if I was going to go through the effort of extracting a good amount I wouldn't half ass it. I'm just explaining what is happening in the link I posted, why they do what they did.

It's a straight forward method to convert everything to psilocin and end up with crystals without fancy equipment. Most reactions aren't this friendly.


--------------------


Germinating old spores progress page
how to calibrate your Martha



:spiralflip::spiralflip:




Edited by spiritlands (12/16/19 02:17 PM)


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26385231 - 12/16/19 02:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

my comment was commentary on the impracitical nature of using a vacuum to make a tea reduction/extract.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #26385255 - 12/16/19 02:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Impractical for you maybe. Can't tell you how many times I've wished I had
rotovapes or vacuum ovens for certain applications.

If someone wants to go beyond makimg a simple tea I say get at it. Try new things
and what not.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26385260 - 12/16/19 02:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Impractical for like 90% of people here.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy] * 2
    #26385269 - 12/16/19 02:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Do we always have to limit what we post about based on the 90%?

Some people are interested in more than just the basics and this is a general
discussion thread, not an appease the majority thread. Even if no one uses the
information, it's still an interesting read :shrug:


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