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vinnie boombotz
Reggaejunkiejew

Registered: 04/29/19
Posts: 492
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Psicomb]
#26132190 - 08/12/19 12:09 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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About 177 farenheit ..... thats ok?
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ShaperDreaming
Weirdo



Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 3,429
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 3 days
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Here's why heat helps protect your harvest from someone smarter than me: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25956433#25956433
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
Grungeman17 said: IMO the drying tek that gives me the greatest results is a 2 stage drying 1st course drying over a screen and fan 1xday. And then buy a bucket of damp rid and and some 99cent paper bags and put your yeild in bag or bags and check them the next day at which point you shoukd have some wetness on your paper bag, switch em out with fresh paper bags, rinse repeat may not have to, the damp rid container with secure layers of paper bags can be used as and extended temporary storage container for them. Once again IMO the fruit bodys seem to "cure" "crimple" "dry up" better with the slower and steadier draw of moisture and without the force of heat.
Just going to leave this here..
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Tylershatto5 said: i have a dehydrator i did it to help people who dont have one and it says on the box itll hold 2x the moisure as the weight and it weighs 9.8 ounces and theres maybe 50 grams wet in it not to mention all them were fan dried but 2 large caps so im sure its gonna work but i do think the dehydrator effects potency bc theres heat involved and anything over 90 degrees in my opinion has an effect bc i have ate fresh and dried and its just an experiment so no loss all gain
well you're very misinformed
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23541779
one of the biggest things we have to always teach noobs is that heat actually protects potency by killing the enzymes that oxidize the active chemicals. and it dries them the fastest, fast drying = potency retention
Cronicr has put cubensis mushrooms in a pressure cooker and they still remained just as strong as the ones that were not cooked
psilocybin and psilocin don't even melt until well over 300F but in room temperature will readily degrade if the mushrooms are still wet on the inside.
if you don't use a food dehydrator you would be far better off putting them in the fridge to dehydrate over the course of a few days.
I always make my mushrooms into tea. I boil them for 10 minutes in 212F water and then strain them with a french press. they hit hard as fuck, water is the best solute for the actives and gives the best extraction.
Quote:
Tylershatto5 said: dont use a house hold heater especially if u dont kno how hot it gets thats like saying put them in the oven
the oven is fine if you set it as low as it goes, leave the door cracked, and point a fan at it.
psilocybe cubensis is usually 91-93% water in my experience. 100g wet will weigh about 7-9g dried up
Quote:
bodhisatta said: I argue that heat will "fix" the mushroom. That is all the enzymes responsible for degrading the mushroom are inactivated by 160-170F heat.
Oxidation reactions involve moving electrons not necessarily diatomic oxygen molecules in the air. Steel doesn't readily rust for instance unless you get it wet. Faster dry more locking in of potency
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
wolfedawwg said:
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amidogen said: dehydrators with heat lock in potency. Potency loss is largely attributed to degradation of psilocybin by enzymes in the mushrooms (not heat)
Sorry but this is bad information!! Oxidation is the biggest factor in degradation, but when you also add heat this process is accelerated! Heat does NOT lock in potency. LESS exposure to oxygen BEST helps maintain potency. With that being said, heat does kind of help keep the potency but ONLY because the shrooms have less exposure to oxygen which is most detrimental!

Quote:
Mad Season said: Oxidation just means the exchange of electrons. Sometimes this is done with oxygen, but not in the case of psilocin. It's actually oxidizing because of hydrogen [H+] the air is actually mostly H2, O2, N2, etc, which in natural state are pretty stable and shouldn't cause too much potency loss, if at all. Enzymes breaking things down are where the OH- comes from. Enzymes are activated due to water, so yes water is partially the reason why it's breaking down. Although it's actually because of the enzymes. Enzymes also can be denatured at temps past 140. So realistically dehydrators turned to max are the absolute best at preserving potency. They denature the enzymes as well as dry the fruits to cracker dry ASAP.
The water in the air can start reactivating enzymes if its exposed to open air long enough. So yeah water is the reason, and not at all O2. Here's a cool pic of the oxidation, notice there's less hydrogen:
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
Edmunter said: Oxygen and heat will quickly degrade psilocin into ineffective compounds. Psilocin is so sensitive to oxygen, that when picking mushrooms, the stems quickly bruise bluish to dark black.
Did you like not read the post above this? Let me break this shit down.
Psilocin oxidation involves the exchange of electrons. In this case hydrogen NOT oxygen.
Psilocin has a melting point of 350°F. Heat DOESN'T break it down. Actually the heat in a dehydrator (140+) helps maintain potency by denaturing enzymes (the reducing agents in this case)
Also show me the proof that 5mg of psilocin per 10g of fruit body is causing the entire fruit body to turn blue/black. Hint: mushrooms contain a quinone, a pigment that turns blue when digested by enzymes. It also has an alternating double and single bond that trap the wavelengths used to determine why they bruise
Honestly getting tired of saying this shit over and over again.
Quote:
Mad Season said: It still hasn't been scientifically proven what causes bruising, but the wavelengths caught are the same as a quinone, and it's in mushrooms, they just haven't actually proven quinones are the cause of it. This shit comes from the 60s research. I really can't find the article on the 60s research right now. I'm in a rush, but here's the thread we really hashed out bruising, psilocin/potency, and links and what not to other bruising mushrooms, and how various pigments getting digested by enzymes cause them to bruise.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23667461#23667461
This has been very thoroughly discussed lol.
Also proven because you can leave fruits in a dehydrator for 48+ hours and see no potency loss.
All this was found using the search function properly.
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El Chupacabra
Stoned Ape



Registered: 01/07/19
Posts: 676
Loc: 🇺🇸
Last seen: 1 year, 17 days
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Thats fine. Even faster drying times i'm sure.
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vinnie boombotz
Reggaejunkiejew

Registered: 04/29/19
Posts: 492
Last seen: 8 months, 4 days
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Thx SharperD, I feel better now
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Funky Monkey
Human Suppository



Registered: 05/14/19
Posts: 1,099
Loc: In your MOM's poop shoot
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Quote:
vinnie boombotz said: Is there a tek for these, or do you think I could safely remove the heating element, or disable it safely on this? I've had it for years to make jerky, but I'm not sure I want to dry mushrooms in it because it does put out a good amount of heat.

Listen to shaper's LONG scroll worthy post 
Can't beat the heat. Use it and reap the benefits. I do with this MONSTER.
Edited by Funky Monkey (08/12/19 02:19 PM)
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FiatFirmamentum
Stranger


Registered: 04/15/19
Posts: 59
Loc: Central EU
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Funky Monkey]
#26132408 - 08/12/19 02:49 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Did anyone tried to quantify FAE optimal for cubensis growth? For many commercial species, optimal FAE is given in air changer per hour and it's up to 10 for oyster mushrooms (most of sources say around 5-7), 3-4 for Calocybe indica etc.
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ShaperDreaming
Weirdo



Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 3,429
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 3 days
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Quote:
FiatFirmamentum said: Did anyone tried to quantify FAE optimal for cubensis growth? For many commercial species, optimal FAE is given in air changer per hour and it's up to 10 for oyster mushrooms (most of sources say around 5-7), 3-4 for Calocybe indica etc.
I think that our collective research in the hobby (i.e. collecting anecdotal evidence over decades not science) has shown that less and less FAE is needed than we all initally thought when it comes to cubensis.
As someone who grows both cubes and oysters, I can tell you that cubes need no where near the FAE that oysters need. Not by a long shot. I started out with oysters doing about 2-3 air changes per hour and had to up it to 6 to even get fruits that wouldn't abort almost instantaneously. Cubes I can literally set and forget without almost any air changes for weeks and get better BE rates than my best attempts at oysters.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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I prefer to look at it as maximum concentration of co2. A max ppm CO2 is a far better measure than air exchange per hour. If your species tolerates a max of 600ppm CO2 it requires as many air exchanges per hour as it takes to keep it < 600 regardless of any other factors like room size or the co2 % of new the air going in
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
#26132434 - 08/12/19 03:18 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oysters need a breeze
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Quote:
vinnie boombotz said: Thx SharperD, I feel better now
I have two of those exact same dehydrators. Dried countless ..grams in those.
They kickass
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Oxidation just means the exchange of electrons. Sometimes this is done with oxygen, but not in the case of psilocin. It's actually oxidizing because of hydrogen [H+] the air is actually mostly H2, O2, N2, etc, which in natural state are pretty stable and shouldn't cause too much potency loss, if at all. Enzymes breaking things down are where the OH- comes from. Enzymes are activated due to water, so yes water is partially the reason why it's breaking down. Although it's actually because of the enzymes. Enzymes also can be denatured at temps past 140. So realistically dehydrators turned to max are the absolute best at preserving potency. They denature the enzymes as well as dry the fruits to cracker dry ASAP.
The water in the air can start reactivating enzymes if its exposed to open air long enough. So yeah water is the reason, and not at all O2. Here's a cool pic of the oxidation, notice there's less hydrogen:
Hmmm, that image looks wrong, I'm not sure if data from the 1960's is a good as data from 2018 (psliocybeen is a misspelling).
https://psychedelicreview.com/psilocin-active-component-magic-mushrooms/ (2018)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin -- More images, updated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocin -- More images, updated
====
Extract from my journal (happy to update if corrected):
----
Active mycelium:
Baeocystin: [C11]--[H15]--[N2]--[O4]--[P] Norbaeocystin: [C10]--[H13]--[N2]--[O4]--[P]
Psilocybin: [C12]--[H17]--[N2]--[O4]--[P] Psilocin: [C12]--[H16]--[N2]--[O]
From above:
"Psilocybin is a tryptamine compound with a chemical structure containing an indole ring linked to an ethylamine substituent. It is chemically related to the amino acid tryptophan, and is structurally similar to serotonin." "Psilocybin is a member of the tryptophan-based compounds that originally functioned as antioxidants in earlier life forms before assuming more complex functions in multicellular organisms."
"Psilocin is relatively unstable in solution due to its phenolic hydroxy (-OH) group. In the presence of oxygen it readily forms bluish and dark black degradation products" "Most species of psilocybin-containing mushrooms bruise blue when handled or damaged due to the oxidization of phenolic compounds"
"Psilocin is broken down by the enzyme monoamine oxidase. Some psilocin is not broken down, and forms a glucuronide"
Notes:
Nor-baeocystin are analogs of psilocybin, meaning single or various elements are added or removed. It appears they can be phosphorylated or dephosphorylated (cleaved, added, a cycle?). All four compounds contain carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.
Serotonin: [C10]--[H12]--[N2]--[O]
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3488923/
Forum bugged, copy the above link!
Edited by Ferather (08/13/19 09:00 AM)
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Camera93
We got dicks like Jesus



Registered: 08/15/18
Posts: 3,224
Last seen: 11 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
#26133448 - 08/13/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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how do you do the maths on air exchanges? or how do i know how many I am having every hour/day
As I type this I can recall bod saying something a day ago..
Quote:
bodhisatta said: I prefer to look at it as maximum concentration of co2. A max ppm CO2 is a far better measure than air exchange per hour. If your species tolerates a max of 600ppm CO2 it requires as many air exchanges per hour as it takes to keep it < 600 regardless of any other factors like room size or the CO2 % of new the air going in
so scratch the exchanges, how do I figure out CO2 levels and tolerance and know that I made adjustments for it? My oysters did awful in my GH, but I wasn't sure what to manipulate to get more exchange/lessen CO2. Im gonna attempt pans in there next at some point, but am looking for a better understanding of what "controls" i have the ability to tweek, and which ones to tweek when needed.
I don't like my wording, and I'm sorry for the vaugeish post. but basically I was wondering how to calculate how long to run my exhaust fan to "empty" out the GH to create an exchange?
-------------------- All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine. Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival Close your eyes, and do the best that you can
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ShaperDreaming
Weirdo



Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 3,429
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 3 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26133571 - 08/13/19 10:32 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Hmmm, that image looks wrong, I'm not sure if data from the 1960's is a good as data from 2018 (psliocybeen is a misspelling).
Hey Ferather, have you seen this thread? https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26132280 You may know some info to drop on it
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Failboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 12 hours, 35 minutes
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 Here's a shot of 1/7 pints of MNAPE I wanna use for G2G. Looking for opinions.
I will of course wait till 100% colonization.
Edited by Failboat (08/13/19 11:30 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26133729 - 08/13/19 12:28 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said:
Quote:
Mad Season said: Oxidation just means the exchange of electrons. Sometimes this is done with oxygen, but not in the case of psilocin. It's actually oxidizing because of hydrogen [H+] the air is actually mostly H2, O2, N2, etc, which in natural state are pretty stable and shouldn't cause too much potency loss, if at all. Enzymes breaking things down are where the OH- comes from. Enzymes are activated due to water, so yes water is partially the reason why it's breaking down. Although it's actually because of the enzymes. Enzymes also can be denatured at temps past 140. So realistically dehydrators turned to max are the absolute best at preserving potency. They denature the enzymes as well as dry the fruits to cracker dry ASAP.
The water in the air can start reactivating enzymes if its exposed to open air long enough. So yeah water is the reason, and not at all O2. Here's a cool pic of the oxidation, notice there's less hydrogen:
Hmmm, that image looks wrong, I'm not sure if data from the 1960's is a good as data from 2018 (psliocybeen is a misspelling).
https://psychedelicreview.com/psilocin-active-component-magic-mushrooms/ (2018)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin -- More images, updated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocin -- More images, updated
====
Extract from my journal (happy to update if corrected):
----
Active mycelium:
Baeocystin: [C11]--[H15]--[N2]--[O4]--[P] Norbaeocystin: [C10]--[H13]--[N2]--[O4]--[P]
Psilocybin: [C12]--[H17]--[N2]--[O4]--[P] Psilocin: [C12]--[H16]--[N2]--[O]
From above:
"Psilocybin is a tryptamine compound with a chemical structure containing an indole ring linked to an ethylamine substituent. It is chemically related to the amino acid tryptophan, and is structurally similar to serotonin." "Psilocybin is a member of the tryptophan-based compounds that originally functioned as antioxidants in earlier life forms before assuming more complex functions in multicellular organisms."
"Psilocin is relatively unstable in solution due to its phenolic hydroxy (-OH) group. In the presence of oxygen it readily forms bluish and dark black degradation products" "Most species of psilocybin-containing mushrooms bruise blue when handled or damaged due to the oxidization of phenolic compounds"
"Psilocin is broken down by the enzyme monoamine oxidase. Some psilocin is not broken down, and forms a glucuronide"
Notes:
Nor-baeocystin are analogs of psilocybin, meaning single or various elements are added or removed. It appears they can be phosphorylated or dephosphorylated (cleaved, added, a cycle?). All four compounds contain carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.
Serotonin: [C10]--[H12]--[N2]--[O]
----
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3488923/
Forum bugged, copy the above link!
Your data from 2018 is a review which means they're just regurgitating data that might be older than the 60s
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Psicomb


Registered: 01/13/18
Posts: 4,636
Loc: the womb
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat]
#26133757 - 08/13/19 12:44 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Looks like a perfectly acceptable jar for g2g to me
--------------------
When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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Failboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 12 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Psicomb]
#26133847 - 08/13/19 01:51 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Prepping ~10lb of oats meow
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
#26133926 - 08/13/19 02:51 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Your data from 2018 is a review which means they're just regurgitating data that might be older than the 60s
Very possible, however the data is accurate enough to correlate with other modern sites (such as wiki). I do not mean to sound offensive, just trying to help, as I see some errors with the info.
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What I do find interesting, tea phenols require oxidation (enzymes-reactants) to decay, and Cubensis produces a few. On T-Gel (black tea), Cubensis produced thick healthy growth, and did not bruise until exposed to air.
Technically speaking, I should see constant bruising, but it reacts more like an antioxidant.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6331815 (copy link).
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kingstatic
Stranger

Registered: 05/29/19
Posts: 1
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26134184 - 08/13/19 05:08 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Preface to my question: my monotub substrate is dry as all get out. I didn't pay enough attention to it during first flush and my coir was a little too dry. I didn't pack the sides down and then the dryness pulled the sub away from the tub and BOOM! Side pin city
Flash forward to today: it is 2nd flush, my tub is more dryand the flush is pretty spotty. I misted after harvest and today I added water to the sides of the substrate in hopes to rehydrate it a bit.
here is a pic. what should I do next? What have I done wrong?
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BigSkyMind
Stranger



Registered: 08/13/19
Posts: 50
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: kingstatic]
#26134193 - 08/13/19 05:14 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can someone refer me to a source where I can buy spore syringes and/or spore prints? I have spent an inordinate time on this site without finding such. One page refers to the site's "vendors" and "sticky" threads, but I can find no vendors or any way to make spore syringes without already having mushrooms on hand. Thank you!
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