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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: AyePlus]
    #25978597 - 05/07/19 07:42 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I wouldnt sweat it then, just pastuerize ... you can case at spawn which is what I usually do .. or do a fahts late case he waits till the pins pop then sprinkles a very light top layer ..


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Boogieman47]
    #25979088 - 05/08/19 02:39 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Continued from this thread:

Quote:

filthyknees said:
I understand the concept. Point being if you wanna have something reliable how are you gonna base that off five different people with different genetics in different conditions, doesn't sound nearly as measured or reliably accurate at verums experiment where he has some constants of strain and environment and that fact that he knows what he is doing matters and it's not his first year or anything.




Because you're testing multiple variants at a single time instead of one single set of genetics. This makes it easier to reach statistical significance with an obvious and weighted trend, not harder. It'd be much more than 5 folks, for sure, which contributes to its benefit. My goal is to create a "testing skeleton" for each experiment that outlines the paramaters and conditions for it to be considered. Not only would the OP serve as a sort of tutorial on the overall process, but folks can chip in forever. Use it as a sort of rite of passage or "earn your bones" type shit on new growers.

Anyway, verum is running a unique hybrid with no baseline for manure performance. Maybe his culture just sucks on this sub? It's part PE, perhaps the most unreliable and poorly understood variety we work with. Not saying the experiment is worthless by any means. But the results of a single person's unique and unproven genetics on this incredibly small scale are much less reliable than the proposed group experiments. This experiment shows what? That the exact same parameters of uncommon and unique genetics yield one result over an insignificant sample size by one person who does things his own specific way?

Well if verum runs it multiple times over, with the same genetics, but changes manure sources, or sub depths, or something one at a time, we can eventually have solid data on verum's specific setup, skill level, all for his unique set of genetics we don't have (which might not be super different from common varieties in this regard, but certainly more so than multiple folks running AA+ MS or something). This is not very helpful to the average grower without his setup, skill level, or unique set of genetics, IMO. And it's not very fun for verum to keep running it over and over to reach a meaningful sample size, either.

The alternative: with fairly controlled parameters, multiple people run the same experiment with as close as conditions as possible and we look for trends. I feel like you're immediately assuming everybody is going to have wildly different results with every experiment. And I disagree with that. Domesticated cubes are fairly stable and reliable with many metrics. And we don't need the exact same genetics to establish anything useful anyway. If we have different metrics, but show the same overall results with different genetics, they aren't discounted, they'd be strengthened. Regardless, it wouldn't be tough to share genetics or use similarly proven ones if that's a worry.


Quote:

filthyknees said:
It's a nice community idea to do that, but in terms of like science *cue gifs* and trying to find definitive statements, I don't think anyone would propose a bunch of people making 2-6 shoeboxes would be the best way to return a concrete measured result as definitively as a single person with a single genetic with proper conditions could provide. Not sure if you where serious though. Might I add, mad respect for stare.




Definitely disagree. For the reasons you've stated, there is more statistical significance to a weighted result with additional, but still controlled variables than a single person's, especially with unique genetics. This is even more important for us if we're trying to reach optimal practices for the community as a whole. And it can be accomplished faster and more reliably with the entire message board.

"Why is there a Tampax dispenser in the men's locker room?" "Well, our marketing and research team only questioned women in the 18-35 bracket and the results were very definitive!"

I highly doubt a fraction of what you do as your SOP was done with clinical trials by scientists in lab coats. The reason I fruit at spawning, which seemed like blasphemy forever ago with fools wrapping colonizing tubs in garbage bags, isn't from conclusively proven experiments by scientists. It was the banned God of Fuck posting jizz gifs who tried it out and recommended it. And then everyone tried it, reported results, and it worked for them. None of us had the exact same genetics, but enough people did it and reported successful results, and now it's pretty standard. Is this shit not awesome? The Josex Poke for LC is the same shit.

Plus not everything needs to be proven to be true. We can show that we don't yet understand why something happens and then begin to tighten if we desire. That's an excellent result for me. Instead of folks swearing FAE is the trick to avoid PE blobs, or consolidation, or casing at 30%, it'd be dope to fairly conclusively say, "50 people did that experiment over the course of 2 years with documented grows. Everybody had different results. There isn't one specific fix we've narrowed down."

Anyway, I'm hoping I can make this happen soon enough on a small scale to start. I hate all this talk without follow-through, but personal stuff getting in the way and taking precedence. Cheers everyone!


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InvisibleBph
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: towndaze]
    #25979175 - 05/08/19 04:59 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

towndaze said:
Quote:

gauze is cotton and stuff will grow on it. Sounds like contam Central. Poly is plastic so that won't happen



Hah, yeah that's fair.
Though I think they've got other materials closer to what I want. We'll see what expires when and when I can visit him.
Defo gonna hit him up for syringes gloves & needles either way once it's time to get PRINTING.
:grin:

Also, yes, they're very officially permitted by their immediate bosses to take whatever's no longer viable.

Material-wise, anyway, I'm not entirely sure how they deal with medicine and I'm not gonna ask because fuck that kind of attention.
:rolleyes:



Gause can be used as alcohol wipes. If they got any swabs they are good for streaking spores. And get some masks to go  with the gloves and syringes.


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25979225 - 05/08/19 05:57 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
Continued from this thread:

Quote:

filthyknees said:
I understand the concept. Point being if you wanna have something reliable how are you gonna base that off five different people with different genetics in different conditions, doesn't sound nearly as measured or reliably accurate at verums experiment where he has some constants of strain and environment and that fact that he knows what he is doing matters and it's not his first year or anything.




Because you're testing multiple variants at a single time instead of one single set of genetics. This makes it easier to reach statistical significance with an obvious and weighted trend, not harder. It'd be much more than 5 folks, for sure, which contributes to its benefit. My goal is to create a "testing skeleton" for each experiment that outlines the paramaters and conditions for it to be considered. Not only would the OP serve as a sort of tutorial on the overall process, but folks can chip in forever. Use it as a sort of rite of passage or "earn your bones" type shit on new growers.

Anyway, verum is running a unique hybrid with no baseline for manure performance. Maybe his culture just sucks on this sub? It's part PE, perhaps the most unreliable and poorly understood variety we work with. Not saying the experiment is worthless by any means. But the results of a single person's unique and unproven genetics on this incredibly small scale are much less reliable than the proposed group experiments. This experiment shows what? That the exact same parameters of uncommon and unique genetics yield one result over an insignificant sample size by one person who does things his own specific way?

Well if verum runs it multiple times over, with the same genetics, but changes manure sources, or sub depths, or something one at a time, we can eventually have solid data on verum's specific setup, skill level, all for his unique set of genetics we don't have (which might not be super different from common varieties in this regard, but certainly more so than multiple folks running AA+ MS or something). This is not very helpful to the average grower without his setup, skill level, or unique set of genetics, IMO. And it's not very fun for verum to keep running it over and over to reach a meaningful sample size, either.

The alternative: with fairly controlled parameters, multiple people run the same experiment with as close as conditions as possible and we look for trends. I feel like you're immediately assuming everybody is going to have wildly different results with every experiment. And I disagree with that. Domesticated cubes are fairly stable and reliable with many metrics. And we don't need the exact same genetics to establish anything useful anyway. If we have different metrics, but show the same overall results with different genetics, they aren't discounted, they'd be strengthened. Regardless, it wouldn't be tough to share genetics or use similarly proven ones if that's a worry.


Quote:

filthyknees said:
It's a nice community idea to do that, but in terms of like science *cue gifs* and trying to find definitive statements, I don't think anyone would propose a bunch of people making 2-6 shoeboxes would be the best way to return a concrete measured result as definitively as a single person with a single genetic with proper conditions could provide. Not sure if you where serious though. Might I add, mad respect for stare.




Definitely disagree. For the reasons you've stated, there is more statistical significance to a weighted result with additional, but still controlled variables than a single person's, especially with unique genetics. This is even more important for us if we're trying to reach optimal practices for the community as a whole. And it can be accomplished faster and more reliably with the entire message board.

"Why is there a Tampax dispenser in the men's locker room?" "Well, our marketing and research team only questioned women in the 18-35 bracket and the results were very definitive!"

I highly doubt a fraction of what you do as your SOP was done with clinical trials by scientists in lab coats. The reason I fruit at spawning, which seemed like blasphemy forever ago with fools wrapping colonizing tubs in garbage bags, isn't from conclusively proven experiments by scientists. It was the banned God of Fuck posting jizz gifs who tried it out and recommended it. And then everyone tried it, reported results, and it worked for them. None of us had the exact same genetics, but enough people did it and reported successful results, and now it's pretty standard. Is this shit not awesome? The Josex Poke for LC is the same shit.

Plus not everything needs to be proven to be true. We can show that we don't yet understand why something happens and then begin to tighten if we desire. That's an excellent result for me. Instead of folks swearing FAE is the trick to avoid PE blobs, or consolidation, or casing at 30%, it'd be dope to fairly conclusively say, "50 people did that experiment over the course of 2 years with documented grows. Everybody had different results. There isn't one specific fix we've narrowed down."

Anyway, I'm hoping I can make this happen soon enough on a small scale to start. I hate all this talk without follow-through, but personal stuff getting in the way and taking precedence. Cheers everyone!



yeah. I hear you, sounds like you're very passionate. Maybe when you're less busy you can do something with the idea and then we can all see how it turns out.

Until then wtf are we talking about haha.

Pastys already done a thread like verums, it's nothing new at all. So the documentation has been there. Idk how you would do it differently, other than asking people to join? Idk, I'll have to see. I'd just consider the coir vs poo debate to not matter, after using many dozens of both they both preform.

But for those without the first hand knowledge I'm sure further testing could help some newer folks and let them get their bones. Tehe.

Fruiting at spawning from 13 years ago, ohmatics monotub tek. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5276282


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


Edited by filthyknees (05/08/19 06:37 AM)


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InvisibleCypressRage
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: filthyknees]
    #25979497 - 05/08/19 09:12 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Today I'm heading into the woods and collecting material to make my own potting soil that can be used as a casting layer. I plan on fruiting a tray without a fruiting chamber, my only real concern is finding material that isn't nutritional


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: filthyknees]
    #25979513 - 05/08/19 09:22 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

filthyknees said:
yeah. I hear you, sounds like you're very passionate. Maybe when you're less busy you can do something with the idea and then we can all see how it turns out.

Until then wtf are we talking about haha.

Pastys already done a thread like verums, it's nothing new at all. So the documentation has been there. Idk how you would do it differently, other than asking people to join? Idk, I'll have to see. I'd just consider the coir vs poo debate to not matter, after using many dozens of both they both preform.

But for those without the first hand knowledge I'm sure further testing could help some newer folks and let them get their bones. Tehe.

Fruiting at spawning from 13 years ago, ohmatics monotub tek. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5276282




I don't care to try and do manure vs. coir and never mentioned that specifically. Pasty and verum is not a significant sample size. The entire point of my post up there was explaining fundamental ideas in sample size, statistical significance, and optimal ways to achieve them which seem to confuse you based on what you recommend. :undecided:

"Idk how you would do it differently, other than asking people to join? "

Yeah man, that's the entire point. Instead of waiting 2 years for 2 people to test something, you can organize multiple people to do it at once and have better, more significant data. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to shake half 5/10 agar wedges and record the results to hit 100%.

When I'm less busy, indeed.


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OfflineCamera93
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25979576 - 05/08/19 10:00 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

On saving cultures

Do you keep a slant/master plate/LC of multi spore for any reason?
I don't have the space really for a special fridge for my culture stuff and I have a handful of MS plates that I am going back and forth with on how to preserve them. Just keep making transfers, or every time i use a wedge make a new plate as well.


--------------------
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine.

Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival
Close your eyes, and do the best that you can



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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Camera93]
    #25979580 - 05/08/19 10:03 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

You can store them in the fridge .. and even though multispore isnt as consistent as clones you can cut yourself down into some great genetics.. but storing in the fridge will keep it dormant..

I hate how we gotta make 1000 transfers a week to keep shit going as well Haha but thays part of the game


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25979604 - 05/08/19 10:16 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Not confusing stuff, I just forsee a bunch of people being involved means loads more variables, we have a difference of opinion I am thinking in that you are not minding that if 100 people do the experiment similarly to a degree, with enough time reaching a general answer although all those people will have prepped things slightly differently, with different genetics, different size containers, different conditions. Yes there may be parameters but it will turn out differently due to individual circumstances.

I thought an experiment was the idea is to change/measure one variable. But I guess we aren't talking about science just general concensus. Guessing what happens when half the people never used manure or even know how to properly pasteurize try to participate, hopefully enough people would know how to do it and record all their info. Some times less voices are better is what I am saying, that's where we're differing on a matter of opinion as far as I can tell. It's not black and white, they like a diverse substrate, but it's 6 one way, half dozen the other imho. That's what all the anecdotal evidence points to in my eyes. People just choose what is easiest to them.


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: filthyknees]
    #25979629 - 05/08/19 10:32 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I will run this test with bags once I get a good clone.. bags will be in the same tub so the environment will be the same as far as prepping goes I cant prep mine how you would or start or pasty even if done what I believe to be the same..

We dont have enough people running these kind of tests at all and you both are right considering the circumstances.. I for one think poo works great and loved to use it I always mixed with coir .. even adding verm and all that it still came out a little muddy adding coir made it nice and fluffy ..


But even still I think the majority of people testing this out is the only way to be sure of results the environments are crucial as stare put it the peoples skills.. and fk you're right people half asking pastuerizing will make the results shitty, certain clones ect...


There are also clones that got domesticated to coir or poo so prefer one or the other .. just how using malt all the time then changing a year later to pda will affect the growth of your myc .. really this argument isnt going to go any where far without proper testing... I have been using coir verm lately and love how I can throw it in my steamer and walk away .. using poo you gotta baby sit it if you dont have the proper tools ..


its only been pasty that did a side by side right ? And I mean the coir was better by maybe an ounce per tub? Which actually is alot considering still not enough to prove other wise.

So I mean really it's in what we wanna use and how to use it poo is free coir is easy .. so either you're poor, cheap, or a lazy ass I think they both are great sub material..


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OfflineCamera93
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Boogieman47]
    #25979632 - 05/08/19 10:32 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:
You can store them in the fridge .. and even though multispore isnt as consistent as clones you can cut yourself down into some great genetics.. but storing in the fridge will keep it dormant..

I hate how we gotta make 1000 transfers a week to keep shit going as well Haha but thays part of the game





okay Ill pry save a few in the fridge then
my plan of attack is like this

I use these to establish a good size clean culture, then for my grow I just transfer a small piece to a pastyplate, tiger drop to LI and noc up 6 quarts.

I figured I can store the larger plate as a master for awhile before needing to expand it to another large plate

maybe mix in some LC to ride out too instead of making a pastyplate for 6 quarts each time?

Am I adding unnecessary steps or holding onto anything I shouldn't from that nutshell description?

I have a RW clone on a large plate I plan to save and use in the same manner


--------------------
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine.

Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival
Close your eyes, and do the best that you can



Edited by Camera93 (05/08/19 10:40 AM)


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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Camera93]
    #25979644 - 05/08/19 10:41 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

No that sounds like a good idea and making an lc is just another added step in securing your culture .. as long as everything is clean they will stay good for awhile .. I normally only save stuff for about 2 months before transferring but it can go way longer .. make your storage plates a little heavy on nutes and wrap the lid with saran wrap kind of like you would on a petri


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OfflineCamera93
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Boogieman47]
    #25979650 - 05/08/19 10:44 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:
No that sounds like a good idea and making an lc is just another added step in securing your culture .. as long as everything is clean they will stay good for awhile .. I normally only save stuff for about 2 months before transferring but it can go way longer .. make your storage plates a little heavy on nutes and wrap the lid with saran wrap kind of like you would on a petri




Thanks Boogie, I have this question/convo with myself all day... glad I pitched on the forum for some input and reassurance!


--------------------
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine.

Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival
Close your eyes, and do the best that you can



Edited by Camera93 (05/08/19 10:51 AM)


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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Camera93]
    #25979657 - 05/08/19 10:47 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

No worries I'm glad to help man


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: filthyknees]
    #25979688 - 05/08/19 11:04 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

filthyknees said:
Not confusing stuff, I just forsee a bunch of people being involved means loads more variables, we have a difference of opinion I am thinking in that you are not minding that if 100 people do the experiment similarly to a degree, with enough time reaching a general answer although all those people will have prepped things slightly differently, with different genetics, different size containers, different conditions. Yes there may be parameters but it will turn out differently due to individual circumstances.

I thought an experiment was the idea is to change/measure one variable. But I guess we aren't talking about science just general concensus. Guessing what happens when half the people never used manure or even know how to properly pasteurize try to participate, hopefully enough people would know how to do it and record all their info. Some times less voices are better is what I am saying, that's where we're differing on a matter of opinion as far as I can tell. It's not black and white, they like a diverse substrate, but it's 6 one way, half dozen the other imho. That's what all the anecdotal evidence points to in my eyes. People just choose what is easiest to them.





Enjoying your discussion here...

Is there a place in the forum where the more seasoned vets have asked each other specific questions (is X better than Y)?

Could always begin another section that specifically lays out a method and requires that those conducting the "experiment" have a certain amount of experience (perhaps proven via photos or verbal agreement). This is the same model researchers use when conducting multi-center clinical trials in order to boost sample size and have a greater statistical power to observe results.

Once those validated to be part of a given "experiment" complete the trial, their individual results can be put into a sheet, and a forest-plot could easily be generated (commonly used in meta-analyses to show individual study results and create a pooled consensus using the available date).

The hardest part is actually in asking specific questions that allow those participating in the experiment to ensure their design is question-specific.

Just my thoughts while reading. I would love to be involved in the write ups of "methods" sections for these threads, should they ever exist.

G-S


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: golden-student]
    #25979690 - 05/08/19 11:07 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Ain't happened yet probably never will. Idea comes up all the time tho


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25979751 - 05/08/19 11:48 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

If it comes up all the time, why does it never happen? Lack of interest from mid level growers?


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: filthyknees]
    #25979769 - 05/08/19 11:59 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

filthyknees said:
Not confusing stuff, I just forsee a bunch of people being involved means loads more variables, we have a difference of opinion I am thinking in that you are not minding that if 100 people do the experiment similarly to a degree, with enough time reaching a general answer although all those people will have prepped things slightly differently, with different genetics, different size containers, different conditions. Yes there may be parameters but it will turn out differently due to individual circumstances.




Fair enough. I just disagree entirely. What variables could be so different that over a hundred people getting similar results is not conclusive or at least a reliable indicator of something? We just have the opposite idea on what something like that proves. To me, if a specific result shines through no matter what you throw at it, it's exponentially less likely to be random variance.

Why would everybody be using completely different shit? The whole idea is that we would try to be a similar to one another as possible. And even if certain things are different, such as somebody only has shoe boxes and not full size totes, then other people can toss and shoe boxes as well and you can glean whatever information you want from it. Because not everything falls completely apart due to a change in tub size.

LOL,I I think it will be a lot less of the shitshow you're envisioning.

Like it's really odd to me that you consider Pasty and verum documenting the same concept as enough to draw some conclusions, but 100 people reaching the same result with different conditions is incomplete data? I mean, PW and verum had different conditions, different genetics, different substrate,etc.


Quote:

I thought an experiment was the idea is to change/measure one variable. But I guess we aren't talking about science just general concensus. Guessing what happens when half the people never used manure or even know how to properly pasteurize try to participate, hopefully enough people would know how to do it and record all their info. Some times less voices are better is what I am saying, that's where we're differing on a matter of opinion as far as I can tell. It's not black and white, they like a diverse substrate, but it's 6 one way, half dozen the other imho. That's what all the anecdotal evidence points to in my eyes. People just choose what is easiest to them.




As I said, with larger sets of data, you can get away with more and pick out anomalies. And if something is inconclusive, we can whittle down by changing one thing at a time. I mean we have to establish some sort of base-line results before we know what to change anyway.

I don't agree that everyone's set up is so different it's problematic. Cubes are cubes and everyone can record their own results to establish their personal standard metrics and then compare to whatever we are testing. Your clown that pumps out 5 oz first flush in 2 weeks will show the same result as my piece of shit MS if both of us had an increase in our yields using the same method.

I don't think it's that difficult to identify someone's results as being skewed by their environment or anything else. And again, figuring out that certain fruiting conditions or environments might make certain techniques or whatever difficult is also a win.

You seem to still be using coir and manure as an example so I'll pretend that's what we would do. I'm also not worried about having a bunch of people who are incapable of performing the tests messing anything up. It would be easy to vet people ahead of time, just as it would me to discount certain users results. The idea in my head that I've had since the beginning is the OP has the skeleton of all information that must be present for the admission to be valid. I don't know enough about the boards Journal features, but I would like completed experiments placed in a finalized journal for each one. Baller.

As you said, there's technically enough variables involved to ensure nobody's experience is the exact same. But enough of the same role results across the board is more than enough for me to change my game or incorporate something new. There's a reason we all do similar things. Because they work across the board. It's not tough to make judgment calls on what is working. You clearly do it and it's help you become such a solid grower.

Sorry, on phone in this voice to text is letting me go buck wild. I'll just trying to make something happen sooner rather than later. Cheers brother.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
star eat clouds?
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: golden-student]
    #25979777 - 05/08/19 12:02 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

golden-student said:
If it comes up all the time, why does it never happen? Lack of interest from mid level growers?




Because it's a lot of work. I'm definitely going to get something going though.


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Offlinegolden-student
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Registered: 04/25/19
Posts: 56
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25979781 - 05/08/19 12:05 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

See ya then, bud


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