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Offlinenixximus
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Supercake Formula Modifications?
    #23524770 - 08/09/16 12:24 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I have been able to locate all of the ingredients for the Supercake formula in my local area except cottonseed meal, I would prefer to buy local especially with the crazy canadian shipping costs. The feed store employee suggested that I use canola meal as a replacement, does anyone know if it will match up to cottonseed meal in regards to mycological usage? From what I can see in charts the theres a difference of about -1 N in canola but I'm not sure if thats too much of a difference and you need that extra N or if its maybe missing something else or has too much of something else? Or possibly there is something else I might be able to find that is a suitable replacement? I know worm castings and coffee are supposed to be good for N but I've also heard you can "burn" the mycelium by adding too much...

Any and all guidance appreciated!

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23524789 - 08/09/16 12:31 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Best super cake is 2:1:1 verm:brf:water

If there was a recipe more super that that. It would have became the standard for the PF TEK. It's not like we are holding out on the good stuff. Supercake is stupid all those extras do is dilute the cake

Do yourself a favor and look up threads only newer than 3-5 years so you can avoid pulling up the old garbage

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23524793 - 08/09/16 12:32 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Is there a specific reason you're doing this?  Regular old PF mix is pretty much perfect for cakes.  Maybe someone will come along who's really into spending tons of time and effort doing unnecessary things and help out.  :shrug:

I would think if it was worth doing, it would be a topic drug up more than once every 6-8 months.


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                            :rainbowdrink: Tea doesn't work?                            AMU  (Q & A)                  Grain prep for Intergalactic Space Oats :pes:     

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23524805 - 08/09/16 12:40 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Super cakes=super contamination rates.

Adding a pinch of this and a teaspoon of that is not going to help one bit.

KISS is the #1 rule when growing cakes ime.


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KRAMER CAKES



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Offlinenixximus
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: george castanza]
    #23538322 - 08/13/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry I didn't give any context. I haven't done actual pf cakes in over a decade, just looking to add a nutrient pack to my primarily CVG subs growing cubes. Was wondering if the cottonseed meal was perhaps the primary hot component and I could swap it out for another nitrogen rich or if perhaps its unnecessary... maybe in my research I missed a post that said "Supercake mix in subs causes problems" and someone could point that out.

I have been reading threads newer than 2 years in my research on the subject of adding this mix to my tubs, thank you for your concern "TC".

This ain't my first rodeo, but it is my 3rd or 4th shroomery forum account over the past 15 years as a hobby mycologist.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23538878 - 08/13/16 08:02 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

If you want your cakes to be as hot and nutritional as possible then don't add anything but BRF to the verm and water. Anything else is just space that BRF could be taking up.

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23538952 - 08/13/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nixximus said:
Sorry I didn't give any context. I haven't done actual pf cakes in over a decade, just looking to add a nutrient pack to my primarily CVG subs growing cubes. Was wondering if the cottonseed meal was perhaps the primary hot component and I could swap it out for another nitrogen rich or if perhaps its unnecessary... maybe in my research I missed a post that said "Supercake mix in subs causes problems" and someone could point that out.

I have been reading threads newer than 2 years in my research on the subject of adding this mix to my tubs, thank you for your concern "TC".

This ain't my first rodeo, but it is my 3rd or 4th shroomery forum account over the past 15 years as a hobby mycologist.




Well then first off let me welcome you back!
:costanza:

Ya, the assumption was definitely cakes and absolutely that you were a newbie, what with asking about super cakes formulas. Of course I'm discussing the cultivation of p.cub because I'm under the assumption that is the type of mushroom your attempting to cultivate.

Idk what it is exactly that your trying to do but ime kiss is also the #1 rule when growing bulk as well. Of course my goal is to fruit the fungus.

Years ago I used to add a bunch of unneeded things to my various mixes of substrates in search of a way to get better yields and/or increase potency. No magic bullet out there that I was ever able to find but I don't want to discourage you from continuing the search. Be sure to let us know if you find something.

Please be sure to post back with some pictures, most people around here love to see pictures of successful grows.


Here is a second flush of ms SA Kramer Cakes spawned to 50/50 cow dung/verm.

Enjoy!


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KRAMER CAKES



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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: george castanza]
    #23539006 - 08/13/16 09:12 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

The only magic bullet is clean spawn, awesome genetics(agar work+testing), and keeping it simple.

Coir verm water and oat spawn. That's it. Potency off the charts from genetics. Bullshit in your grows only gets you bullshit. Bullshit in bullshit out. You don't need fancy ingredients. Everything we use to grow indoors is borderline too nutritional anyway.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23539067 - 08/13/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

IIRC supercake was a bulk sub additive. While it may provide a nute boost I will suggest more consistent results will be had via culture. I recently did a side by side where coir verm (often derided as being a super low nutrition substrate) beat the manure and nitrogen supplimented sub every time across 3 different clones. Bulk is less about nutes and more about water supply IMO.

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InvisibleMoabfighter
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23539102 - 08/13/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Pasty would you suggest making my bulk subs slightly on the more moist side?


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KSSS And PE WBS.
 

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: Moabfighter]
    #23539106 - 08/13/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

No. Always proper field capacity.

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23539123 - 08/13/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I was checking that thread out. It made me want to search around this place for those bricks of coir I have somewhere and put them to use!

:bigyesnod:


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KRAMER CAKES



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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: george castanza]
    #23539130 - 08/13/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

It's so quick and easy George.  You will love it :super:

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Offlinenixximus
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23542721 - 08/15/16 01:22 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I understand the concept of KISS when you are getting your feet wet but after I pushed out enough bulk subs on CV subs and have done straw/dung I thought perhaps I could spice it up and maybe even see some colonization speed or yield increases.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
IIRC supercake was a bulk sub additive. While it may provide a nute boost I will suggest more consistent results will be had via culture. I recently did a side by side where coir verm (often derided as being a super low nutrition substrate) beat the manure and nitrogen supplimented sub every time across 3 different clones. Bulk is less about nutes and more about water supply IMO.




When you say the CV beat the manure/nitrogen subs do you mean both colonization times and yield?

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23542726 - 08/15/16 01:26 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

colonization time has a lot more to do with genetics and temperature. isolate fast colonizing genetics. either way the difference in time should be pretty minimal. your spawn rate, and temperature will make the most difference.

as for yield increases, that's going to be genetic, as well as just dialing in fruiting conditions. the magic bullet for that couldn't be farther from the ingredients. chances are you are not even maximizing a flush on a cake in the first place once you get into bulk substrates just dialing in your fruiting conditions can make a world of difference. then getting a good performing set of genetics. you're not going to make a lick of difference choosing fancy ingredients. if the choice of ingredients mattered that much we would have seen a clear trend in the last 30 years that some things are superior to others, yet we still all use different subs and grains and find that potency comes from hard work on petri dishes.

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: nixximus]
    #23543021 - 08/15/16 06:25 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nixximus said:
I understand the concept of KISS when you are getting your feet wet but after I pushed out enough bulk subs on CV subs and have done straw/dung I thought perhaps I could spice it up and maybe even see some colonization speed or yield increases.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
IIRC supercake was a bulk sub additive. While it may provide a nute boost I will suggest more consistent results will be had via culture. I recently did a side by side where coir verm (often derided as being a super low nutrition substrate) beat the manure and nitrogen supplimented sub every time across 3 different clones. Bulk is less about nutes and more about water supply IMO.




When you say the CV beat the manure/nitrogen subs do you mean both colonization times and yield?




Just yield. Colonization and pin times were identical.

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Offlinenixximus
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Re: Supercake Formula Modifications? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23545974 - 08/16/16 04:16 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Trusted Cultivator said:
colonization time has a lot more to do with genetics and temperature. isolate fast colonizing genetics. either way the difference in time should be pretty minimal. your spawn rate, and temperature will make the most difference.

as for yield increases, that's going to be genetic, as well as just dialing in fruiting conditions. the magic bullet for that couldn't be farther from the ingredients. chances are you are not even maximizing a flush on a cake in the first place once you get into bulk substrates just dialing in your fruiting conditions can make a world of difference. then getting a good performing set of genetics. you're not going to make a lick of difference choosing fancy ingredients. if the choice of ingredients mattered that much we would have seen a clear trend in the last 30 years that some things are superior to others, yet we still all use different subs and grains and find that potency comes from hard work on petri dishes.




What temperatures do you suggest for colonization speeds in relation to the medium? Like what temp for grain jars, or for agar petris or for spawning bulk subs?

I started with the TMC chart over a decade ago and generally kept my grain jars at 82-84f and tubs at 72-75f during spawning/fruiting. I came back to the forums for this grow and what I read now says to colonize/fruit at 68-76f  for jars/tubs so I have been using these parameters.

My experience with MS has been all over the place. From 100% contam free grows using various MS genetics (B+, EQ, Haut) in 55qt tubs on dung/straw based 3" subs in what I later learned to be a HEAVILY black mold infested carpeted room with somewhat mediocre yields (about 2-4oz over 3+ flushes with and without dunking and not one tub ever saw a contam before I tossed it) to my current which is all Z from MS growing in a much cleaner environment using same tubs/sub depth/spawn ratios on CVG with about a 50% contam rate on tubs before they are fully colonized, but the ones that make it thru a flush without becoming contaminated are pushing out 8oz or more... which now that I think about it re-confirms what Pastywhyte said about CV subs beating out nute rich subs in yield.

I suspect that the contam rates might also be related to the time of year, as my most contam free grows happen in fall/winter/spring and the few times I've grown in the summer I have troubles getting a flush before trich starts eating the subs.

My recent research has shown that gene isolation is a way to go, and honestly I kinda knew this from the beginning but the fear of trying something new mixed with my fairly successful MS grows over the years had me in a rut of thinking "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

What do you suggest as the most direct path for isolating fast colonizing genetics?

I have my first set of agar plates with B+ spores from syringe on about day 5 right now and the myc is starting to spread, I think I may see some bacterial slime but they are my first plates so not really sure. My understanding is that I am to transfer from the edge of the fastest growing identifiable "cell" of mycelium that is contam free to another agar plate. If it grows out as a single "cell" of growth rather than multiple competing and is contam free then make it a master isolate and I can start a new set of plates to transfer to grains or just transfer it straight to grain jar for g2g multiplication, am I missing anything?

I have a flushing Z tub that I am going to be cloning to agar, also thinking about doing a spore swab to agar from that tub since I'm now at about 5 generations of G2G from the original spores and I'm looking for any excuse to get more experience with agar.

When it comes to cloning to agar does the same "cell" identification and transferring have to happen or since its a clone will it only have one set of genes to grow out with? If its already an isolated set of genes I'm guessing that isolating away from contamination is the only goal?

Thanks for the tips to steer away from "beefing" up my substrate and to dial in my culture work instead, exactly what I needed to hear! Perhaps once I've got some isolates I'm happy with I will revisit substrate additives.

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