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OfflineAlonzo
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The Value of Life
    #23515844 - 08/06/16 11:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life and suicide (voluntary death).

I.
We have determined that there is no specific need for an individual to live. In terms of evidence, we have no signs of intelligent life on nearby planets, our existence appears to be the result of chance, not purpose, and our bodies gradually decay and die leading to inevitable oblivion. Most individuals forget not only their life but also the lives of the dead in a matter of days. The value or significance of an individual life is statistically negligible considering the massive population of the human species. Despite subjective accounts that the experience of life is precious, rare, and, for many, pleasurable, the phenomenon is no more unique than other subjective experiences such as dreams, near-death experiences, and out of body experiences. Presence of life on Earth is irrelevant with regard to other matter and/or entities that may exist elsewhere in the universe. Furthermore, the amount of time that physical beings were nonexistent implies that physical existence of animated bodies is a byproduct or excrement of the universe.  Extraterrestrial beings who have no desire for life on Earth may safely disband and eradicate it. Since the costs of living sometimes exceed the benefits, intelligent subjects may freely discard any human life or body including their own.

II.
You're at a big party surrounded by friends. You've been at the party all your life. You're tired of the music, the excitement, the dancing and just want to go home. You tell your friends and they beg you to stay, so you stay. Now you're miserable. You just want to leave. You forgot how the outside looks because of drugs, amnesia, or injury, but you're to the point where it doesn't matter so you head toward the exit. Your friends and family and other influencers see you and get in your way shouting 'no, please stay!', 'don't go', but you're tired and have had enough so you regretfully push them out of your way so you can leave. It isn't easy, but you manage. You're now at the exit and when you leave you can't come back. You don't know what's outside, but you've decided it can't be any worse than this, so you go. Where, you don't know, but hopefully someplace better than this.

III.
I am a traitor. But I own who I am. I'm doing this because I believe no one should suffer from anything. If this is the cost for peace then so be it. Everyone should have infinite access to peace. Everyone should be free to do what they want without fear of judgment as long as they do not violate, disrespect, or intentionally abuse another being, human or otherwise. If anyone wishes to suffer or live life here, that is their choice and right. If anyone does not wish live here, they have a right to leave without question.

Peace


Edited by Alonzo (08/06/16 12:09 PM)


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 2
    #23515860 - 08/06/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

you are your thoughts. 



I think therefore I am.


"I am an idiot, I am not attractive, I'm not good enough, im not smart :blah:" you will believe it, as a result you become it.


things like "I am kind, I am respectful, open, courteous, genuine, thoughtful, caring :blah:" are much more beneficial.

I believe people can cause their own death with thought alone.  Chronic depression can lead to auto immune diseases and cancer IMO.  The body is constantly sending deep destructive messages to itself over a long period of time.  I also believe in self healing.  The power of the brain is amazing.



The Power of I AM.  Joel Osteen has a book on this.  Read it.  (i confess that i also need to)


--------------------
welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326


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OfflineStuckInShanghai
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 2
    #23516825 - 08/06/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What makes you think life ceases after death?

When the leaves fall from the trees in autumn don't they grow back in the spring? Everything in the universe goes in cycles.

Like everything around us, we are an expression of the universe. Everything in it is made up of energy.

We will be continue as another expression after this body dies. Hence you were never born and you will never die.


Edited by StuckInShanghai (08/06/16 07:15 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23517820 - 08/07/16 04:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Existentialism is a philosophy that emphasizes individual existence, freedom and choice. It is the view that humans define their own meaning in life, and try to make rational decisions despite existing in an irrational universe.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23517866 - 08/07/16 05:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I liked the part where you referred to the existence of animated bodies as the excrement of the universe.

:lol:

It's highly debatable but I also found it hilarious.


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23517885 - 08/07/16 05:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Your part II analogy didn't make much sense.
But using it, in reality the party that is the coexistence of humans (and kitty cats) on Earth is so vast that you couldn't experience all of it in your lifetime if you tried. To leave because you're fed up with some of it begs the question, why not explore more of it because there's always going to be something new or a given set of circumstances that could pique your interest and introduce a shiny new perspective.

As far as the existential nihilism goes,
Why does it matter? Why does it matter that it doesn't matter? If it doesn't, then why cut things short. We're all going to die in a cosmic blink, but for now we're here. Might as well do something with that time. Perhaps the closest thing to any existential satisfaction we can get is to explore the next best thing - the fields of science which touch on those big questions. Why are we here? How are we here? What questions have answers that will reveal deeper questions within our ever exceeding grasp?


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: StuckInShanghai]
    #23518756 - 08/07/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

StuckInShanghai said:
Like everything around us, we are an expression of the universe. Everything in it is made up of energy.
.




Yep! Everything is iconic.

Every material entity is an expression of a spiritual counterpart.

I.e We can perhaps conclude from our earthly 'pecking order' that there is also a spiritual heirarchy, split through many realm 'layers'.

The Pistis Sophia text emphasises this, in that the inheritance of Christ (the spirit light) allows one to bypass to the highest reaches. The 'key to the kingdom', acquired through eradication of the seven sins (the veils masking the essence of truth).


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23519295 - 08/07/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




Strictly from a logical view point, it is perhaps funny to consider that the whole investigation depends on the over looked assumption that (measuring) value has value. Sort of like the saying: "He knows the price of everything but the value of 'nothing' ". The saying of course distinguishes 2 kinds of value. But I question the very notion. We almost always overlook this. Except when we consider the notion of doing something for its own sake.

A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.
But a child running and laughing in a field on a nice Spring day, does it for no reason. Certainly not for their health.

The whole investigation above depends on assuming it is possible to be outside of life observing it. We do this sort of 'thing' when thinking all the time. It is the nature of conceptualization - but not the nature of reality. The hand cannot grasp itself, the eye cannot see itself, etc. And it isn't necessary. Experiencing experiencing for its own sake is just fine.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23519610 - 08/07/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.






Many people lift weights for the pleasure and in some cases, the pleasure alone.

I lift light weights regularly for the sole sake of evoking endorphins, especially when I feel my mood ebbing.

Getting strong is pleasure for others too.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (08/07/16 05:54 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #23520019 - 08/07/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.






Many people lift weights for the pleasure and in some cases, the pleasure alone.






I'm glad you enjoy lifting weights. I understand that. No problem.

Sometimes it seems though, that there's always someone who 'sees a tree for the forest' and misses the point.

You and anyone is/are welcome to invent whatever example they like (that they don't feel they have argue with) to understand the simple point being made, that what the OP is attempting is unnecessary, namely to attempt to judge life (from some hypothetical point outside of it - which is of course impossible).

However whether it is christian culture, and its attempt to impose arbitrary moral  values on everything that has unconsciously permeated our psyche - or a poor educational system, it seems to me what we have here is a common error of much that passes for thought.

to quote, from Alice in wonderland:

"'If there's no meaning in it,' said the King, 'that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any..."


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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23520107 - 08/07/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It is a frank and honest admission that the pleasureful experiences were not worth the pain of continued existence. Most people who end it all don't think this directly, they act before they have considered all options, and as they die are confronted with their deepest desires and worst fears. Usually desire first, than fear. My $0.02 worth.


--------------------
"Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eywa_devotee]
    #23520735 - 08/07/16 11:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Personally, I believe that life has absolutely no value except that which you place upon it. If you think you're here for a higher purpose (not "God" higher, this could be as simple as "My purpose is to eat this sandwich", personally, mine happens to be "make new drugs that will save lives") then good for you. If you think your existence is meaningless, then good for you. Either way, you have just evaluated your own life. The question is what you do with this evaluation. Do you embrace it? Ignore it? That is also your choice. As OP mentioned, there isn't really any intrinsic cosmic value to a single human life past the current market value of the elements/structures in the body (~200$ elementally, several million in contiguous organs/bones/marrow, though it's illegal to sell organs outside Iran), unless you subscribe to some religion that places value on whatever they call their version of the soul or spirit.

Seems like this argument is veering a bit towards a discussion of suicide, so let me add my thought on the matter. It's a pretty familiar argument if you're a drug user that would like to see legalization, or a woman. Your body, your choice. Just in case some of you missed it: Your body, your choice.

The standard arguments are:
-But if you commit suicide you'll miss out on the wonders of the world!
Yeah, and if you're too poor or too sick to see the wonders of the world, the only wonder that you get to marvel at is how loud your stomach can growl or how cold the winter nights are or how much pain you can be in while remaining conscious.
-Suicide is selfish!
I think the party analogy is pretty good here. It's selfish to expect someone else to live just so that you're happy. It's selfish to believe that your lack of grief trumps the pain of their existence. If you can't handle someone checking out, you should probably try to sort your own life out enough to not rely on others for happiness. Is it selfish to get into a fatal car accident? Or maybe to die of old age?
-You hurt your tribe by depriving them of your skills!
This is probably the only argument I buy as semi-valid. However, now that we have modern medicine (and penicillin!) most people survive into adulthood. We do not have a shortage of labor, if anything we have an abundance of it.
-You need to talk to a mental health specialist, you need help!
Well, that's probably good advice, but the point isn't to have some psychologist talk you out of suicide or put you on happy pills, the point is to be able to work through all of the pros and cons and come to an informed decision that works for you. Sadly, talking openly about suicide usually gets you put on 24 hour observation as a legal requirement, so...maybe this is something that you should think about on your own.
-It gets better!
How do you know? Got a time machine you haven't told me about?

I wanna be clear that I'm not saying "go kill yerself". I'm not. I'm saying: Reflect honestly on your life, reflect honestly on your previous accomplishments, and what you can accomplish in the future, and decide for yourself if you want to continue living. This is the most important decision you'll ever make in your life, so spend some time on it. Most suicides happen on a whim just because you were sad and happened to own a gun or some pills or had a nearby bridge. That's the kind of thing I would prevent. If someone has thought long and hard about their lives, and decided that continued existence wasn't worth it, I could not in good conscience stop them. As the OP analogy went, they're miserable at the party, they just wanna leave, and I don't have any right to force them to stay against their will. Life is a party, not a prison.

I think most of the "christian" ideals of suicide being "evil" or "sinful" was based on the tribe idea I mentioned before. When people regularly died of infections and injuries and more able-bodied hands were always necessary, suicide actually hurt society. Now? Not so much. However, christian ideals seem to have stuck around out of habit. (As long as they're convenient, lot of "Good Christians" violating the first commandment for reasons they see as justified, completely ignoring the binary nature of the commandment.)


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Offlinetump
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Kryptos]
    #23521056 - 08/08/16 03:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Suicide is evil form a Christian or any monotheism. Conspect wise god knows all and created all. Including your life, but since he knows all they must stand out side the possible time loop. In any case death like any fate will happen weather you force it or not. Where most Christian conscripts fail to tell is suicide is evil becausr you are suppost to live in chirst and make others join through out your life. We live in a era where we do more damage staying alive at 85 then dieing earlier. Statement two is just wasted on me.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: tump]
    #23521530 - 08/08/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No, suicide is evil from the perspective of any society without access to reliable healthcare. Religion is just normally used to propagate the idea that it is evil, as it was one of the first ideas we came up with and propagated. As much as I like hating on organized religion, I cannot blame them for this.

Again, the point is that before approximately 1850, every life was incredibly important and had a lot of value, because many people died young from causes we did not understand and could not fix, and many people died for things that we would laugh off now. (Small cut? Minor infection? Go get some antibiotics! Oh, no antibiotics? Well, pick your favorite pine box.) Society needed you alive and productive, because there were way more things to produce than people to produce them. That has changed.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Kryptos]
    #23521832 - 08/08/16 12:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

every bodies somebodies everything.
nobodies nothing.

OK, now lets look at your 1.
Quote:

We have determined that there is no specific need for an individual to live. In terms of evidence, we have no signs of intelligent life on nearby planets, our existence appears to be the result of chance, not purpose, and our bodies gradually decay and die leading to inevitable oblivion. Most individuals forget not only their life but also the lives of the dead in a matter of days. The value or significance of an individual life is statistically negligible considering the massive population of the human species. Despite subjective accounts that the experience of life is precious, rare, and, for many, pleasurable, the phenomenon is no more unique than other subjective experiences such as dreams, near-death experiences, and out of body experiences. Presence of life on Earth is irrelevant with regard to other matter and/or entities that may exist elsewhere in the universe. Furthermore, the amount of time that physical beings were nonexistent implies that physical existence of animated bodies is a byproduct or excrement of the universe.  Extraterrestrial beings who have no desire for life on Earth may safely disband and eradicate it. Since the costs of living sometimes exceed the benefits, intelligent subjects may freely discard any human life or body including their own.




first of all, who is this we who has determined there is no specific need for an individual to live?
the Nazis?
As well, from what specific context are you using the word need here?
The first sentence just seems so incredibly ...wrong.
  there is no specific need for the word 'need' when speaking of existence, or living.
The only need when living is to continue living.
Since this need is specific to the individual living, your first statement is illogical and fallacious.

You also seem to contradict yourself with regards to 'value' when you say that there is no intelligent life on other planets, and then state that intelligent life evolved by pure chance on our own planet.

If we are the only intelligent life (seriously though, we are not even the most intelligent life-form on the planet), wouldn't that make the entire species quite valuable in a universe seemingly devoid of intelligence?

As well, given a finite universe which spawned intelligence intelligent enough to figure out its eventual demise, would it be logical to assume that, given a long enough time-line and ever-evolving knowledge (such as the time-binding sort we humans are capable of), that a civilization at the end of time-space would figure out a way for more time?
In such a scenario, the purpose of life would be to save the universe (I mean, since life is a part of the universe and all)
There are multiple thought experiments which reveal a purpose of life or two in the universe.


Your statement stating that individual life is statistically negligent given the vast population of our species may be right from a mathematical point of view, but little else.

from the point of view of say another human, I think its obvious that nearly every human would agree that every individual life is incredibly important and valuable, if only to one another...and isn't that really all that matters?

the fact that we are of the universe, composed of atoms which have been around since the beginning of the universe, doesn't mean we are the 'excrement' of the universe...it means we are not separate from the universe.

Since we are the universe, the question on the purpose of life is synonymous with questions such as,
What is the purpose of gravity?
Clearly, there is a purpose.
We just haven't figured it out yet.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineAlonzo
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23524516 - 08/09/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23524897 - 08/09/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
... my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, ....On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...





I did not read the whole thread,

why? because the opening statement already shows con-fusion

3 things are con-fused that should be sep-arated

1) you want to be rational

2) why should some one care -- that is feeling / emotion

3) what is the value of life --- moral philosophical

But

but emotion is not reasonable

and reason is not emotional

(math aint love (unless you're a mathematician of course))

and philosophy usually mixes in judgements and beliefs (although it pretends it doesn't do so without  good reason) which con-fuses 'things' further.

one can feel anything about life one wants without justification, hence people have moods etc. One might prefer to generally feel positive - but that is another matter.

from a rational view point we can say things about how 'life' functions, as opposed to 'non living' matter, but we cannot step outside of the experiencing of living that is happening moment to moment to judge it objectively from some hypothetical outside vantage point. Of course conceptual thinking does attempt to do this all the time. But conceptual thinking is of course always somewhat escapist.

It is precisely because certain things inhibit thought that they make us feel more alive. Like sex, skiing, car racing, mountain climbing.
Whereas being overly intellectual is deadening - hence the cliche of the stuffy boring philosophy and literature professors. People seek out dangerous activities to find greater connection with experiencing living. As a result some people confuse adventure with 'really living'.

But the heart of the matter is simply understanding that awareness is the pinnacle life, and that thought is neither awareness, life, or yourself. But thinking about this is not the experiencing of it.

for nit pickers


But the heart of the matter is simply understanding that awareness is the pinnacle life, and that thought is neither awareness, (the essence of) life, or 'yourself'. But thinking about this is not the experiencing of it.


Edited by laughingdog (08/09/16 01:40 PM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23525187 - 08/09/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...






you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23525286 - 08/09/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:


you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.




:thumbup:


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23525547 - 08/09/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

White Fang said:
There's a quote from Mr. Robot that really hit home for me in regards to this topic.

"Existence could be beautiful, or it could be ugly. But that's on you. Dream. You gotta find out the future you're fighting for. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and really envision that shit bro. If you like it then it's beautiful. If you don't... You might as well fade the fuck out right now."




Thing is that no vision can change what reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23525554 - 08/09/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...






you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.



Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23525590 - 08/09/16 06:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




Strictly from a logical view point, it is perhaps funny to consider that the whole investigation depends on the over looked assumption that (measuring) value has value. Sort of like the saying: "He knows the price of everything but the value of 'nothing' ". The saying of course distinguishes 2 kinds of value. But I question the very notion. We almost always overlook this. Except when we consider the notion of doing something for its own sake.

A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.
But a child running and laughing in a field on a nice Spring day, does it for no reason. Certainly not for their health.

The whole investigation above depends on assuming it is possible to be outside of life observing it. We do this sort of 'thing' when thinking all the time. It is the nature of conceptualization - but not the nature of reality. The hand cannot grasp itself, the eye cannot see itself, etc. And it isn't necessary. Experiencing experiencing for its own sake is just fine.




Actually the hand can grasp itself and the eye can see itself. You can in fact be outside the whole thing and observe it, I do it quite a few times. Experiencing for its own sake is frightfully empty to be honest, that's why there has to be a "point". If there wasn't, we probably wouldn't exist today. There has to be a reason to live, because otherwise we would just off ourselves.

I think his observation is accurate. There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).


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OfflineMurzelpfrumpft
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23525917 - 08/09/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else.
I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.

But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.

I'd still suggest for you to grow up a bunch first and try again later. Influence of school on writing style is still too obvious.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
    #23525926 - 08/09/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else.
I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.

But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.




Dumb fuck cop who used to live in the house I'm in tried to whack himself by running his car into a wall at top speed, but left his seat belt on for safety.  Then shot himself on my patio or in the DR, not too sure but his negative energy persists to this day.  I'm moving out soon, tired of him lurking.


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OfflineMurzelpfrumpft
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23526010 - 08/09/16 08:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That's not the only reason your moving out, is it?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
    #23526032 - 08/09/16 08:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
That's not the only reason your moving out, is it?




Not really, but it's one reason.  That and the tax code and the barking hounds.



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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
    #23526075 - 08/09/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else.
I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.

But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.

I'd still suggest for you to grow up a bunch first and try again later. Influence of school on writing style is still too obvious.




Call it plenty of time thinking and realizing that no matter what there is no reason to live, that life isn't worth it


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23526570 - 08/09/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).




nonsense

Tell that to some young dude trying to get a date with a chick he thinks is hot.

"meaning' has nothing to do with it. And reason has nothing to do with it.

I just picked a particularly obvious example, but most human behavior is essentially motivated in an analogous fashion, in my opinion.

Folks who are unhappy or alienated or neurotic or whatever word you like, as part of their disconnect, look for reasons and meanings, but engaged people pursue desire instinctually constantly, and generally avoid what they fear (with of course some exceptions).

That some people have been conditioned to get some pleasure from intellectual or religious rituals or masochistic acts, etc. does not negate the point.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23526668 - 08/10/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).




nonsense

Tell that to some young dude trying to get a date with a chick he thinks is hot.

"meaning' has nothing to do with it. And reason has nothing to do with it.

I just picked a particularly obvious example, but most human behavior is essentially motivated in an analogous fashion, in my opinion.

Folks who are unhappy or alienated or neurotic or whatever word you like, as part of their disconnect, look for reasons and meanings, but engaged people pursue desire instinctually constantly, and generally avoid what they fear (with of course some exceptions).

That some people have been conditioned to get some pleasure from intellectual or religious rituals or masochistic acts, etc. does not negate the point.




There is even a reason behind that example. Simply put, people don't do things for their own sake, they do it for some reason (overt or underlying). Some call it purpose even. It's not instinct, it's a learned behavior. Maybe even a drive. But certainly not instinct. They feel that way because they have purpose, whether they are aware of it or not. Take away purpose and meaning and they crumble like the rest.

Ultimately though, none of that is even a reason to be alive. There is no reason or logic to support your continued existence, or anyone else's. To live just for its own sake, is just plugging ones ears and dodging the question.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23527104 - 08/10/16 04:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
Quote:

White Fang said:
There's a quote from Mr. Robot that really hit home for me in regards to this topic.

"Existence could be beautiful, or it could be ugly. But that's on you. Dream. You gotta find out the future you're fighting for. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and really envision that shit bro. If you like it then it's beautiful. If you don't... You might as well fade the fuck out right now."




Thing is that no vision can change what reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.



your reflecting your own delusion on us.

everyone knows, reality is what it is.
c'e la vie.
suffering is just a part of it.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23527113 - 08/10/16 04:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
Thing is that no vision can change what my reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.




--------------------
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Light up the darkness.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23527151 - 08/10/16 04:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...






you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.



Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.




which is because you think linearly. In reality life&death form a dynamic. there HAS to be death for life to be, even in the moment, and vice verse. My typing this can fractally be seen as action in varying degrees dying so that further action is born. When i hit a key to type a letter the very action is both a death OF that action (it is hit and that is past) and then the birth of the next action, and you can apply this to minutes, seconds, hours, parts of the day, morning, afternoon, evening, night, dawn, and so on~~~all reality flowing not in linear motion (though that sense can be included, as you emphasize) but cyclically, though I prefer the metaphor of a spiral (actually the first artistic form to be found!), because a circle, iof taken literally can be a bit mechanical because you just go round and end up at very came place whereas a spiral you are going round but in a forward motion where every begining and end (which becomes the beginning) is unique. So death , the end of physical life is really just a stage OF life~~~


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23527396 - 08/10/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...






you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.



Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.




which is because you think linearly. In reality life&death form a dynamic. there HAS to be death for life to be, even in the moment, and vice verse. My typing this can fractally be seen as action in varying degrees dying so that further action is born. When i hit a key to type a letter the very action is both a death OF that action (it is hit and that is past) and then the birth of the next action, and you can apply this to minutes, seconds, hours, parts of the day, morning, afternoon, evening, night, dawn, and so on~~~all reality flowing not in linear motion (though that sense can be included, as you emphasize) but cyclically, though I prefer the metaphor of a spiral (actually the first artistic form to be found!), because a circle, iof taken literally can be a bit mechanical because you just go round and end up at very came place whereas a spiral you are going round but in a forward motion where every begining and end (which becomes the beginning) is unique. So death , the end of physical life is really just a stage OF life~~~




Incorrect. Death is the end of life. It's the end to which all things must go. Eventually everything will reach the ultimate stillness that it brings. There isn't really a dynamic, it's just fighting the inevitable.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23527400 - 08/10/16 07:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
Thing is that no vision can change what my reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.







It actually isn't my reality; it's what realty is. Which is suffering. To exist is to suffer, and it is unavoidable.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23527784 - 08/10/16 10:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

White Fang said:
Just because that's what a certain sect of Buddhism says doesn't make it so. You must concede that everything is unknown and anything you believe in is just that, a belief based on faith and nothing more.

All the 'wisest' philosophers I've come across recognize the mystery of reality and that we don't truly  'know' anything. Alan Watts, Terence McKenna, and many others recognized this truth and that while they chose to believe in an act out a certain mindset, a certain philosophy, they would constantly remind themselves and their audiences that they actually didn't know anything and that their lectures were purely acts of entertainment.




The uncertainty aspect is a nice fad, if it weren't for the truth of suffering. We are insulated from the struggle for survival thanks to modern society, a while ago people didn't live very long and it was a struggle to live. People only bothered to continue because suicide was viewed as evil.

That life is suffering isn't an unknown, it's fact. Just look at those not shielded by modern society.

To say we don't truly know anything is idiotic to me and usually comes from folks who don't have much of value to say.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23528021 - 08/10/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

We are insulated from the struggle for survival thanks to modern society,




LOL and here's me thinking you a pessimist! I am not sure how in da money you are mate, but I can assure you plenty people are struggling for survival in the modern world


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23528033 - 08/10/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

#edit


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23528037 - 08/10/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:


Incorrect. Death is the end of life. It's the end to which all things must go. Eventually everything will reach the ultimate stillness that it brings. There isn't really a dynamic, it's just fighting the inevitable.




So i am guessing you believe the brain produces consciousness?


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #23528334 - 08/10/16 02:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

There is a reason therapists charge money to listen to complaints, especially of those who fight to stay stuck.

We had another nihilist on the board (T) for many months who loved to broadcast nihilism and how meaningless everything is, and dogmatically proclaim everyone wrong about everything.

Suicide hotlines are free, but to use them you need to keep up an act of being really upset and stay on the phone for as long as you want to keep getting attention.

The internet is free, and one can keep up the fussing for days and involve many people, so it appeals to some with this predilection, style of attention getting through negativity, who actually do not want to change or be uplifted, or even learn anything new.

With such folks "debate" is a waste of time, and only perpetuates the syndrome.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23528375 - 08/10/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quite true.

Quite true.


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23528488 - 08/10/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

We are insulated from the struggle for survival thanks to modern society,




LOL and here's me thinking you a pessimist! I am not sure how in da money you are mate, but I can assure you plenty people are struggling for survival in the modern world



Quote:

laughingdog said:
There is a reason therapists charge money to listen to complaints, especially of those who fight to stay stuck.

We had another nihilist on the board (T) for many months who loved to broadcast nihilism and how meaningless everything is, and dogmatically proclaim everyone wrong about everything.

Suicide hotlines are free, but to use them you need to keep up an act of being really upset and stay on the phone for as long as you want to keep getting attention.

The internet is free, and one can keep up the fussing for days and involve many people, so it appeals to some with this predilection, style of attention getting through negativity, who actually do not want to change or be uplifted, or even learn anything new.

With such folks "debate" is a waste of time, and only perpetuates the syndrome.




Most of the counterpoints people make for staying alive aren't rooted in any sound reason. It's more for the other people in life. I have spoken to many people about it but in the end they can't find any reason to keep living and just ignore or deny what I say.

On a side note, I don't think those suicide hotline people are qualified to do anything. All they have are empty promises and appeals to emotion.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23528499 - 08/10/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:


Most of the counterpoints people make for staying alive aren't rooted in any sound reason. It's more for the other people in life. I have spoken to many people about it but in the end they can't find any reason to keep living and just ignore or deny what I say.

On a side note, I don't think those suicide hotline people are qualified to do anything. All they have are empty promises and appeals to emotion.




exactly according to the pattern
it's nice to see predictions come true


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23528545 - 08/10/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:


Most of the counterpoints people make for staying alive aren't rooted in any sound reason. It's more for the other people in life. I have spoken to many people about it but in the end they can't find any reason to keep living and just ignore or deny what I say.

On a side note, I don't think those suicide hotline people are qualified to do anything. All they have are empty promises and appeals to emotion.




exactly according to the pattern
it's nice to see predictions come true




I don't know what imaginary pattern you are seeing, but there is none.

But like I said, there is no real reason to be alive.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23528900 - 08/10/16 05:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:
I don't know what imaginary pattern you are seeing, but there is none.





:tongue:


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23530360 - 08/11/16 05:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
With such folks "debate" is a waste of time, and only perpetuates the syndrome.




I try and encourage people like this to either change or leave the board. Unfortunately all these negative dribblers need someone with a martyr complex to complete them, and the martyrs all gangbang me for being mean to their vampires.

It's not easy fighting the good fight.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: viktor]
    #23530870 - 08/11/16 09:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

lol, you can look at it as that this Mystery we are all involved in which really really cannot be pinned down and sold on the market can yet accommodate all kinds of views. that is the freedom we have
someone believes and says life is just a pile of shit? well for them 'it' will be so---ta daaaaa


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: FlowerofTitania]
    #23532503 - 08/11/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:

But like I said, there is no real reason to be alive.





You could decide to abandon your search for a reason.

I can't find a reason to hang myself. There's just no point in it.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23532689 - 08/11/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

FlowerofTitania said:

But like I said, there is no real reason to be alive.





You could decide to abandon your search for a reason.

I can't find a reason to hang myself. There's just no point in it.




but i need to have a reason, to have a reason, to have a reason, to...


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23532752 - 08/11/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Some ‘neebeies’ stumble on nihilism and think they have found something world changing and new.

Failing to realize  that they are only exposing their total ignorance of the most basic literature a good high school would have exposed them to. In particular A. Camus, F.Dostoevsky, & J.P.Satre, for starters.
The stranger, The plague, Notes from underground, and Satre’s amazing plays (not his unreadable ‘philosophy), also the Catcher in the Rye. Many have explored this area.

Let alone  a couple of the most interesting chapters of the old testament: The book of Job and Ecclesiastes.

Then among those who make this “discovery” are those who only have the social skills to garner attention thru negativity, and therefore misappropriate some of the points considered by the Existentialists and Nihilists, and of course have no hint that all the arguments and counter arguments are ancient history by now.

Finally somehow they have missed all the psychological studies on self fulfilling prophecy that are now readily available.

All of which shows the power of both habit
and the need we all have for attention, regardless of the tools we have for getting it.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23532816 - 08/11/16 08:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

fuck ur smart


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23532821 - 08/11/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
fuck ur smart




my dad was smart
I'm an old fart


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23532863 - 08/11/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
fuck ur smart




my dad was smart
I'm an old fart




well my dad ate ken-l-ration or was that my dog


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23533670 - 08/12/16 05:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

this guy is even more to the point



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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23534559 - 08/12/16 11:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
this guy is even more to the point






he LOOKS like a clown but is laughing all the way to the bank!


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23542220 - 08/14/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, our misery is born when we can't accept what is.

It's an ancient idea.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23543304 - 08/15/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

OK then, you find yourself living in a terrible slum. it is full of trash, disease, even the air aint fit to breathe. WHY should I have to accept that?
WHY should I accept oppressors making my life and the life of others a complete hell on Earth?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23543652 - 08/15/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
OK then, you find yourself living in a terrible slum. it is full of trash, disease, even the air aint fit to breathe. WHY should I have to accept that?
WHY should I accept oppressors making my life and the life of others a complete hell on Earth?




1) the example you have chosen seems to give you a choice

if you change the example to say a pain, perhaps a headache, or you are in the woods and twist your ankle, or it is emotional pain and your child has died.

then we get apparent choice out of the equation.

even without the spiritual dimension a psychologist will tell you that to get past grief you need to go thru it not repress it.

- - - -

2) besides the issue of choice I think there is a 2nd confusion.  you use the word ‘accept’, as if it must mean ‘surrender and remain stuck with’.

If you think of AA, the first thing an alcoholic has to do (if they want to get better,(according to them)), is get past denial and admit they have a problem. that is a form of acceptance that doesn’t mean remaining stuck.

- - -

if these views have merit then the point of the teaching is that humans, have first a tendency to go into denial, and secondly to resist anything we don’t like, in terms of experiencing it fully.

frequently when one goes to a doctor he pokes one repeatedly and asks: “does it hurt here, and here and here…” he investigates and explores.
We on the other had often say to ourselves when we have a pain, something like: “I have a pain. I don’t like it. If it goes on much longer I can’t stand it. I wish I had something stronger than aspirin.” etc etc this is resistance.

it is like the question what is a tree? there is no ‘tree’, rather there  are processes on one level, and perception(s) on another level, etc.
like wise there is no ‘one solid unchanging pain’, but we label it as such, and then resist the label and tense up from resisting. They say that, when on the contrary, we allow ourselves to experience so called pain we may discover, all kinds of changing sensations, throbbing, stabbing, vibrations, heat, pressure, and changing locations; they say that being willing to experience it intimately actually allows it to dissolve and that the suffering is reduced, and that it is a learned skill, and one can’t start with a broken leg and expect it to work instantly, if one hasn’t done a lot of practice.

that’s the rational of teachers who teach this. they are not advocating being passive about abusive conditions.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23544883 - 08/15/16 06:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Value of life



None except what you give it on a personal one to one basis.

I choose that all life precious. I unsteadily hold on to this as an ideal. It is a goal i strive for but rarely accomplish to my own level of satisfaction.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23545315 - 08/15/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

even without the spiritual dimension a psychologist will tell you that to get past grief you need to go thru it not repress it.





Well stated points.

It's a paradox, but when we accept reality as it is, we're better able to adapt and change.

When we react to life with resistance and aggression, we harm ourselves.

Our habit is to blame.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23545415 - 08/15/16 09:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
We had another nihilist on the board (T) for many months who loved to broadcast nihilism and how meaningless everything is, and dogmatically proclaim everyone wrong about everything.



I'm glad you pointed this out LD, turns out our little Flower and Thanatos are in fact one and the same person. Flower won't be coming back and Thanatos is now on a short holiday.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23545510 - 08/15/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Passionate nihilists find significant value in their beliefs.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23545568 - 08/15/16 10:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Don't they just!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23545743 - 08/15/16 11:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

everyone is a hypocrite.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23545749 - 08/15/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Aren't they just!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23545767 - 08/15/16 11:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

the aim is to not just simply be honest about it. that's a way to promote cast-off and aimless, and futile, enterprise, in the sense of relieving the ails of hypocrisy. no, the aim is to be vigilant and hold true to your beliefs, and opinions, and essentially rebel. this forum, nor the rest of most elsewhere, is not suited to this kind of life experience. most people fight in this arena, also, due to the political climate in some regions of the world.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23545995 - 08/16/16 04:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the aim is to not just simply be honest about it. that's a way to promote cast-off and aimless, and futile, enterprise, in the sense of relieving the ails of hypocrisy. no, the aim is to be vigilant and hold true to your beliefs, and opinions, and essentially rebel. this forum, nor the rest of most elsewhere, is not suited to this kind of life experience. most people fight in this arena, also, due to the political climate in some regions of the world.



Man, that gets my vote for the most wordy, but most vapid post I have seen this year.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23546057 - 08/16/16 05:54 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I value your custom.  Seems these days nobody can listen to somebody else's point of view and possibly consider they might learn something new or interesting about this world, simply because your PoV clashes with their own.  It's a shame, really.  Welcome to PS&P btw.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23546291 - 08/16/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
We had another nihilist on the board (T) for many months who loved to broadcast nihilism and how meaningless everything is, and dogmatically proclaim everyone wrong about everything.



I'm glad you pointed this out LD, turns out our little Flower and Thanatos are in fact one and the same person. Flower won't be coming back and Thanatos is now on a short holiday.




No fucking shit.  I could have told you that after the first FlowerofTitania post I saw.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23546384 - 08/16/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the aim is to not just simply be honest about it. that's a way to promote cast-off and aimless, and futile, enterprise, in the sense of relieving the ails of hypocrisy. no, the aim is to be vigilant and hold true to your beliefs, and opinions, and essentially rebel. this forum, nor the rest of most elsewhere, is not suited to this kind of life experience. most people fight in this arena, also, due to the political climate in some regions of the world.



Man, that gets my vote for the most wordy, but most vapid post I have seen this year.



oh really? how so? care to explain yourself rather than just promote more cast-off? how is it vapid...how i am not promoting more of a challenge, than you? how is what i said not inspiring...because what i find you to say, i find wholly uninspired as well. so we obviously have an issue here. care to try and resolve it?


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23546389 - 08/16/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The only value of Life is the time you have to live it


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23546391 - 08/16/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

watch out, Jokeshop might just find that vapid. he wants life to have value past the clock, and past ones own singular beliefs. he wants a utopia.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
No fucking shit.  I could have told you that after the first FlowerofTitania post I saw.




not vapid at all, by the by. just saying; totally non-vapidity in pointing to the obviousness of Thanatos.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/16/16 09:32 AM)


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23546397 - 08/16/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Time is money friend :wink:


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23546399 - 08/16/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

too bad most people spend most of it chasing more money. kind of a catch-22.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23546424 - 08/16/16 09:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Saying time is money is really selling your life short on potential. If the time of my life were measured in dollars it would greatly cheapen my existence.

I also have a pet peeve when working others and they ask "how much do you charge per hour?".

This means I am required to put a price on my time, if I'm not working in with my wife and boys. So who has deep enough pockets to outweigh the value of my family?

I reply with this and usually am met with a grimace of sorts.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: nuentoter]
    #23546450 - 08/16/16 09:56 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

One second can be a hundred dollars, it just depends how you use your time to get your money, the only economical value of life is the time you have, realistically. It's not selling your life short, you can only receive money in time, now if you are using a lot of time for a little amount of money thats when you're selling yourself short


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: nuentoter]
    #23546459 - 08/16/16 10:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

money is just currency. currency also comes in other forms. such as that which makes me feel current (or in currency), and that which makes me fit into the customs of not just the society, but my human nature, and/or then some.

in otherwords, your family is also a type of currency.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/16/16 10:06 AM)


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23546476 - 08/16/16 10:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yes.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23546486 - 08/16/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

money is just the mint. the phrase should probably transmogrified for clarity. Time is Currency.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23546941 - 08/16/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

OK.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #23547007 - 08/16/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

that's "Ok", to you.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23547470 - 08/16/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

If time of money, and the perception of time is a subjective malleable construct of the brain. By this training I am infinitely rich because I have all of it in my life.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: nuentoter]
    #23547544 - 08/16/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

this is one of the keys.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23551782 - 08/17/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:

... the aim is to be vigilant and hold true to your beliefs, and opinions, and essentially rebel.





This would be viewed by many as pure ego.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23551804 - 08/17/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i view it as a healthy ego. one that has constancy. particularly of a cogent intellect, it can be distancing to some people who, i feel, either have an aversion to a healthy ego, do the perception of it's forcefulness; and/or they are simply cynical to the extent of their own ego, thus project.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23551820 - 08/17/16 11:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:

i view it as a healthy ego. one that has constancy.





This is the delusion we so often embrace.

Do you like the food or music you loved 25 years ago?

We want so much to be a constant entity.  But we constantly change.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23551955 - 08/18/16 12:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

the delusion 'we' so often embrace is that everyone works exactly the same as 'they' do.

and yes, i do enjoy the same stuff. what does that say?


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23552274 - 08/18/16 05:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I also believe in a certain stoicism. The ego is not some horribly thing, it is undeniable there and inseparable from us in our daily lives. It is a tool that once you learn to recognize, you can use to strengthen your image of who you choose to be in this life.


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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23552467 - 08/18/16 07:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I've never identified a part of myself that never changes.

I hated green olives with a passion for 25 years. Now I love them.

I've found certain people to be repulsive, only to later care deeply for them.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23552858 - 08/18/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

maybe that change is simply a shattering of an illusion. maybe nothing really changed?

who knows. people can change, i never said they can't. i just said i still think of things the way i have in the past, considering some things...most ways i've changed have been in small ways, really the only determination of any significant change is putting these ways together to see the overall difference.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23553356 - 08/18/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The phenomena of massive 'brain-change' is well-documented in history. 
St. Paul, Mohammed, Buddha, various poets such as Rumi and Hafiz.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23553407 - 08/18/16 02:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

means very little. if they decided to "change their brains" or twas decided for them, whichever is the case, they would've learned what? that it's unethical to ever hurt any living being?

obvious...

that there is an afterlife/reincarnation?

means nothing, because there is no good reason to end it all now, so live until the end, and the end may not be "the end", but does "the end" really change anything about you? no. it may change the mind to realize these things, but that doesn't change the nature of man. this is why Buddha taught...and Jesus spoke of sin. the man can realize these things without changing too; which is my point.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23553434 - 08/18/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I wasn't disagreeing nor agreeing per say.

Mostly just relating the fact that people have and do occasionally dramatically and significantly change in adult-hood.

It may be they change for good or for bad, for external reasons, internal reasoning, or both.


It may mean very little to you, but I find it very interesting.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23553451 - 08/18/16 02:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

means nothing to me as a counter-point to my thoughts on the ego's constancy, is what i mean.

as far as interest goes, of course, psychology is interesting, and how people change is of course interesting and important.

but a strong ego will help in that very endeavor, i think. it's fine to think that identification with the ego is a hindrance when it comes to ones character...but when it comes to conforming to the world...no, no longer a hindrance, as long as you are leaving it healthy.

a healthy ego does not bend the world to it's will, but bends to the world's will.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23553518 - 08/18/16 02:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Why think of it in such absolutes?
either/or seems so limiting.

seems much more likely that a healthy ego does a bit of both ?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23553625 - 08/18/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

because absolutes help illustrate my point. but yeah, it does a little bit of both. true. granted, a healthy ego doesn't lord over anyone else because it thinks it can. it lords over itself.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23554021 - 08/18/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
a healthy ego doesn't lord over anyone else because it thinks it can. it lords over itself.





Well said


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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