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FlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
#23525554 - 08/09/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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zzripz said:
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Alonzo said: Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...

you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End' This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this. The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.
Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.
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FlowerofTitania
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laughingdog said:
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Alonzo said: Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....
Strictly from a logical view point, it is perhaps funny to consider that the whole investigation depends on the over looked assumption that (measuring) value has value. Sort of like the saying: "He knows the price of everything but the value of 'nothing' ". The saying of course distinguishes 2 kinds of value. But I question the very notion. We almost always overlook this. Except when we consider the notion of doing something for its own sake.
A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure. But a child running and laughing in a field on a nice Spring day, does it for no reason. Certainly not for their health.
The whole investigation above depends on assuming it is possible to be outside of life observing it. We do this sort of 'thing' when thinking all the time. It is the nature of conceptualization - but not the nature of reality. The hand cannot grasp itself, the eye cannot see itself, etc. And it isn't necessary. Experiencing experiencing for its own sake is just fine.
Actually the hand can grasp itself and the eye can see itself. You can in fact be outside the whole thing and observe it, I do it quite a few times. Experiencing for its own sake is frightfully empty to be honest, that's why there has to be a "point". If there wasn't, we probably wouldn't exist today. There has to be a reason to live, because otherwise we would just off ourselves.
I think his observation is accurate. There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).
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Murzelpfrumpft
pet donkey in a lucid dream

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To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else. I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.
But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.
I'd still suggest for you to grow up a bunch first and try again later. Influence of school on writing style is still too obvious.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Murzelpfrumpft said: To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else. I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.
But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.
Dumb fuck cop who used to live in the house I'm in tried to whack himself by running his car into a wall at top speed, but left his seat belt on for safety. Then shot himself on my patio or in the DR, not too sure but his negative energy persists to this day. I'm moving out soon, tired of him lurking.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Murzelpfrumpft
pet donkey in a lucid dream

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That's not the only reason your moving out, is it?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Loc: Building 7
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Murzelpfrumpft said: That's not the only reason your moving out, is it?
Not really, but it's one reason. That and the tax code and the barking hounds.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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FlowerofTitania
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Registered: 07/26/16
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Murzelpfrumpft said: To be honest, the first sentence is indeed so damn stupid on many levels that I almost decided to read nothing else. I lol'd at the Nazi comment because that was exactly what I thought. Schaffung von Lebensrrrraum doesn't need any lebensunwerte existence.
But I did read the rest and the party anology is generally nice and could be turned into an impressive read for folks who are ignorant of the fact that shaming suicide is selfish, not committing it.
I'd still suggest for you to grow up a bunch first and try again later. Influence of school on writing style is still too obvious.
Call it plenty of time thinking and realizing that no matter what there is no reason to live, that life isn't worth it
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laughingdog
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FlowerofTitania said: There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).
nonsense
Tell that to some young dude trying to get a date with a chick he thinks is hot.
"meaning' has nothing to do with it. And reason has nothing to do with it.
I just picked a particularly obvious example, but most human behavior is essentially motivated in an analogous fashion, in my opinion.
Folks who are unhappy or alienated or neurotic or whatever word you like, as part of their disconnect, look for reasons and meanings, but engaged people pursue desire instinctually constantly, and generally avoid what they fear (with of course some exceptions).
That some people have been conditioned to get some pleasure from intellectual or religious rituals or masochistic acts, etc. does not negate the point.
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FlowerofTitania
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laughingdog said:
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FlowerofTitania said: There is no reason to be alive, and people need a reason to live (which is why just existing and experiencing for its own sake isn't enough).
nonsense
Tell that to some young dude trying to get a date with a chick he thinks is hot.
"meaning' has nothing to do with it. And reason has nothing to do with it.
I just picked a particularly obvious example, but most human behavior is essentially motivated in an analogous fashion, in my opinion.
Folks who are unhappy or alienated or neurotic or whatever word you like, as part of their disconnect, look for reasons and meanings, but engaged people pursue desire instinctually constantly, and generally avoid what they fear (with of course some exceptions).
That some people have been conditioned to get some pleasure from intellectual or religious rituals or masochistic acts, etc. does not negate the point.
There is even a reason behind that example. Simply put, people don't do things for their own sake, they do it for some reason (overt or underlying). Some call it purpose even. It's not instinct, it's a learned behavior. Maybe even a drive. But certainly not instinct. They feel that way because they have purpose, whether they are aware of it or not. Take away purpose and meaning and they crumble like the rest.
Ultimately though, none of that is even a reason to be alive. There is no reason or logic to support your continued existence, or anyone else's. To live just for its own sake, is just plugging ones ears and dodging the question.
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
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Loc: Space-time
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FlowerofTitania said:
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White Fang said: There's a quote from Mr. Robot that really hit home for me in regards to this topic.
"Existence could be beautiful, or it could be ugly. But that's on you. Dream. You gotta find out the future you're fighting for. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and really envision that shit bro. If you like it then it's beautiful. If you don't... You might as well fade the fuck out right now."
Thing is that no vision can change what reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.
your reflecting your own delusion on us.
everyone knows, reality is what it is. c'e la vie. suffering is just a part of it.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
(:



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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
#23527113 - 08/10/16 04:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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FlowerofTitania said: Thing is that no vision can change what my reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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zzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Quote:
FlowerofTitania said:
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zzripz said:
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Alonzo said: Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...

you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End' This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this. The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.
Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.
which is because you think linearly. In reality life&death form a dynamic. there HAS to be death for life to be, even in the moment, and vice verse. My typing this can fractally be seen as action in varying degrees dying so that further action is born. When i hit a key to type a letter the very action is both a death OF that action (it is hit and that is past) and then the birth of the next action, and you can apply this to minutes, seconds, hours, parts of the day, morning, afternoon, evening, night, dawn, and so on~~~all reality flowing not in linear motion (though that sense can be included, as you emphasize) but cyclically, though I prefer the metaphor of a spiral (actually the first artistic form to be found!), because a circle, iof taken literally can be a bit mechanical because you just go round and end up at very came place whereas a spiral you are going round but in a forward motion where every begining and end (which becomes the beginning) is unique. So death , the end of physical life is really just a stage OF life~~~
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FlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
#23527396 - 08/10/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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zzripz said:
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FlowerofTitania said:
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zzripz said:
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Alonzo said: Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...

you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End' This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this. The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.
Except life is linear. You live, and then you die. That's it. Once you're born you can only go one way.
which is because you think linearly. In reality life&death form a dynamic. there HAS to be death for life to be, even in the moment, and vice verse. My typing this can fractally be seen as action in varying degrees dying so that further action is born. When i hit a key to type a letter the very action is both a death OF that action (it is hit and that is past) and then the birth of the next action, and you can apply this to minutes, seconds, hours, parts of the day, morning, afternoon, evening, night, dawn, and so on~~~all reality flowing not in linear motion (though that sense can be included, as you emphasize) but cyclically, though I prefer the metaphor of a spiral (actually the first artistic form to be found!), because a circle, iof taken literally can be a bit mechanical because you just go round and end up at very came place whereas a spiral you are going round but in a forward motion where every begining and end (which becomes the beginning) is unique. So death , the end of physical life is really just a stage OF life~~~
Incorrect. Death is the end of life. It's the end to which all things must go. Eventually everything will reach the ultimate stillness that it brings. There isn't really a dynamic, it's just fighting the inevitable.
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FlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
#23527400 - 08/10/16 07:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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hTx said:
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FlowerofTitania said: Thing is that no vision can change what my reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.
It actually isn't my reality; it's what realty is. Which is suffering. To exist is to suffer, and it is unavoidable.
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FlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
#23527784 - 08/10/16 10:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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White Fang said: Just because that's what a certain sect of Buddhism says doesn't make it so. You must concede that everything is unknown and anything you believe in is just that, a belief based on faith and nothing more.
All the 'wisest' philosophers I've come across recognize the mystery of reality and that we don't truly 'know' anything. Alan Watts, Terence McKenna, and many others recognized this truth and that while they chose to believe in an act out a certain mindset, a certain philosophy, they would constantly remind themselves and their audiences that they actually didn't know anything and that their lectures were purely acts of entertainment.
The uncertainty aspect is a nice fad, if it weren't for the truth of suffering. We are insulated from the struggle for survival thanks to modern society, a while ago people didn't live very long and it was a struggle to live. People only bothered to continue because suicide was viewed as evil.
That life is suffering isn't an unknown, it's fact. Just look at those not shielded by modern society.
To say we don't truly know anything is idiotic to me and usually comes from folks who don't have much of value to say.
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zzripz
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We are insulated from the struggle for survival thanks to modern society,
LOL and here's me thinking you a pessimist! I am not sure how in da money you are mate, but I can assure you plenty people are struggling for survival in the modern world
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zzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
#23528033 - 08/10/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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#edit
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zzripz
Stranger


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FlowerofTitania said:
Incorrect. Death is the end of life. It's the end to which all things must go. Eventually everything will reach the ultimate stillness that it brings. There isn't really a dynamic, it's just fighting the inevitable.
So i am guessing you believe the brain produces consciousness?
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laughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz] 1
#23528334 - 08/10/16 02:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is a reason therapists charge money to listen to complaints, especially of those who fight to stay stuck.
We had another nihilist on the board (T) for many months who loved to broadcast nihilism and how meaningless everything is, and dogmatically proclaim everyone wrong about everything.
Suicide hotlines are free, but to use them you need to keep up an act of being really upset and stay on the phone for as long as you want to keep getting attention.
The internet is free, and one can keep up the fussing for days and involve many people, so it appeals to some with this predilection, style of attention getting through negativity, who actually do not want to change or be uplifted, or even learn anything new.
With such folks "debate" is a waste of time, and only perpetuates the syndrome.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quite true.
Quite true.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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