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OfflineAlonzo
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The Value of Life
    #23515844 - 08/06/16 11:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life and suicide (voluntary death).

I.
We have determined that there is no specific need for an individual to live. In terms of evidence, we have no signs of intelligent life on nearby planets, our existence appears to be the result of chance, not purpose, and our bodies gradually decay and die leading to inevitable oblivion. Most individuals forget not only their life but also the lives of the dead in a matter of days. The value or significance of an individual life is statistically negligible considering the massive population of the human species. Despite subjective accounts that the experience of life is precious, rare, and, for many, pleasurable, the phenomenon is no more unique than other subjective experiences such as dreams, near-death experiences, and out of body experiences. Presence of life on Earth is irrelevant with regard to other matter and/or entities that may exist elsewhere in the universe. Furthermore, the amount of time that physical beings were nonexistent implies that physical existence of animated bodies is a byproduct or excrement of the universe.  Extraterrestrial beings who have no desire for life on Earth may safely disband and eradicate it. Since the costs of living sometimes exceed the benefits, intelligent subjects may freely discard any human life or body including their own.

II.
You're at a big party surrounded by friends. You've been at the party all your life. You're tired of the music, the excitement, the dancing and just want to go home. You tell your friends and they beg you to stay, so you stay. Now you're miserable. You just want to leave. You forgot how the outside looks because of drugs, amnesia, or injury, but you're to the point where it doesn't matter so you head toward the exit. Your friends and family and other influencers see you and get in your way shouting 'no, please stay!', 'don't go', but you're tired and have had enough so you regretfully push them out of your way so you can leave. It isn't easy, but you manage. You're now at the exit and when you leave you can't come back. You don't know what's outside, but you've decided it can't be any worse than this, so you go. Where, you don't know, but hopefully someplace better than this.

III.
I am a traitor. But I own who I am. I'm doing this because I believe no one should suffer from anything. If this is the cost for peace then so be it. Everyone should have infinite access to peace. Everyone should be free to do what they want without fear of judgment as long as they do not violate, disrespect, or intentionally abuse another being, human or otherwise. If anyone wishes to suffer or live life here, that is their choice and right. If anyone does not wish live here, they have a right to leave without question.

Peace


Edited by Alonzo (08/06/16 12:09 PM)


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 2
    #23515860 - 08/06/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

you are your thoughts. 



I think therefore I am.


"I am an idiot, I am not attractive, I'm not good enough, im not smart :blah:" you will believe it, as a result you become it.


things like "I am kind, I am respectful, open, courteous, genuine, thoughtful, caring :blah:" are much more beneficial.

I believe people can cause their own death with thought alone.  Chronic depression can lead to auto immune diseases and cancer IMO.  The body is constantly sending deep destructive messages to itself over a long period of time.  I also believe in self healing.  The power of the brain is amazing.



The Power of I AM.  Joel Osteen has a book on this.  Read it.  (i confess that i also need to)


--------------------
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OfflineStuckInShanghai
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 2
    #23516825 - 08/06/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What makes you think life ceases after death?

When the leaves fall from the trees in autumn don't they grow back in the spring? Everything in the universe goes in cycles.

Like everything around us, we are an expression of the universe. Everything in it is made up of energy.

We will be continue as another expression after this body dies. Hence you were never born and you will never die.


Edited by StuckInShanghai (08/06/16 07:15 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23517820 - 08/07/16 04:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Existentialism is a philosophy that emphasizes individual existence, freedom and choice. It is the view that humans define their own meaning in life, and try to make rational decisions despite existing in an irrational universe.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23517866 - 08/07/16 05:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I liked the part where you referred to the existence of animated bodies as the excrement of the universe.

:lol:

It's highly debatable but I also found it hilarious.


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23517885 - 08/07/16 05:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Your part II analogy didn't make much sense.
But using it, in reality the party that is the coexistence of humans (and kitty cats) on Earth is so vast that you couldn't experience all of it in your lifetime if you tried. To leave because you're fed up with some of it begs the question, why not explore more of it because there's always going to be something new or a given set of circumstances that could pique your interest and introduce a shiny new perspective.

As far as the existential nihilism goes,
Why does it matter? Why does it matter that it doesn't matter? If it doesn't, then why cut things short. We're all going to die in a cosmic blink, but for now we're here. Might as well do something with that time. Perhaps the closest thing to any existential satisfaction we can get is to explore the next best thing - the fields of science which touch on those big questions. Why are we here? How are we here? What questions have answers that will reveal deeper questions within our ever exceeding grasp?


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: StuckInShanghai]
    #23518756 - 08/07/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

StuckInShanghai said:
Like everything around us, we are an expression of the universe. Everything in it is made up of energy.
.




Yep! Everything is iconic.

Every material entity is an expression of a spiritual counterpart.

I.e We can perhaps conclude from our earthly 'pecking order' that there is also a spiritual heirarchy, split through many realm 'layers'.

The Pistis Sophia text emphasises this, in that the inheritance of Christ (the spirit light) allows one to bypass to the highest reaches. The 'key to the kingdom', acquired through eradication of the seven sins (the veils masking the essence of truth).


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23519295 - 08/07/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




Strictly from a logical view point, it is perhaps funny to consider that the whole investigation depends on the over looked assumption that (measuring) value has value. Sort of like the saying: "He knows the price of everything but the value of 'nothing' ". The saying of course distinguishes 2 kinds of value. But I question the very notion. We almost always overlook this. Except when we consider the notion of doing something for its own sake.

A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.
But a child running and laughing in a field on a nice Spring day, does it for no reason. Certainly not for their health.

The whole investigation above depends on assuming it is possible to be outside of life observing it. We do this sort of 'thing' when thinking all the time. It is the nature of conceptualization - but not the nature of reality. The hand cannot grasp itself, the eye cannot see itself, etc. And it isn't necessary. Experiencing experiencing for its own sake is just fine.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23519610 - 08/07/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.






Many people lift weights for the pleasure and in some cases, the pleasure alone.

I lift light weights regularly for the sole sake of evoking endorphins, especially when I feel my mood ebbing.

Getting strong is pleasure for others too.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (08/07/16 05:54 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #23520019 - 08/07/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Alonzo said:
Here are three...reflections I wrote out and wanted to share and get a second opinion on about the value of life ....




A person who lifts weights does it to get strong & not for the pleasure.






Many people lift weights for the pleasure and in some cases, the pleasure alone.






I'm glad you enjoy lifting weights. I understand that. No problem.

Sometimes it seems though, that there's always someone who 'sees a tree for the forest' and misses the point.

You and anyone is/are welcome to invent whatever example they like (that they don't feel they have argue with) to understand the simple point being made, that what the OP is attempting is unnecessary, namely to attempt to judge life (from some hypothetical point outside of it - which is of course impossible).

However whether it is christian culture, and its attempt to impose arbitrary moral  values on everything that has unconsciously permeated our psyche - or a poor educational system, it seems to me what we have here is a common error of much that passes for thought.

to quote, from Alice in wonderland:

"'If there's no meaning in it,' said the King, 'that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any..."


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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: laughingdog]
    #23520107 - 08/07/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It is a frank and honest admission that the pleasureful experiences were not worth the pain of continued existence. Most people who end it all don't think this directly, they act before they have considered all options, and as they die are confronted with their deepest desires and worst fears. Usually desire first, than fear. My $0.02 worth.


--------------------
"Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Eywa_devotee]
    #23520735 - 08/07/16 11:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Personally, I believe that life has absolutely no value except that which you place upon it. If you think you're here for a higher purpose (not "God" higher, this could be as simple as "My purpose is to eat this sandwich", personally, mine happens to be "make new drugs that will save lives") then good for you. If you think your existence is meaningless, then good for you. Either way, you have just evaluated your own life. The question is what you do with this evaluation. Do you embrace it? Ignore it? That is also your choice. As OP mentioned, there isn't really any intrinsic cosmic value to a single human life past the current market value of the elements/structures in the body (~200$ elementally, several million in contiguous organs/bones/marrow, though it's illegal to sell organs outside Iran), unless you subscribe to some religion that places value on whatever they call their version of the soul or spirit.

Seems like this argument is veering a bit towards a discussion of suicide, so let me add my thought on the matter. It's a pretty familiar argument if you're a drug user that would like to see legalization, or a woman. Your body, your choice. Just in case some of you missed it: Your body, your choice.

The standard arguments are:
-But if you commit suicide you'll miss out on the wonders of the world!
Yeah, and if you're too poor or too sick to see the wonders of the world, the only wonder that you get to marvel at is how loud your stomach can growl or how cold the winter nights are or how much pain you can be in while remaining conscious.
-Suicide is selfish!
I think the party analogy is pretty good here. It's selfish to expect someone else to live just so that you're happy. It's selfish to believe that your lack of grief trumps the pain of their existence. If you can't handle someone checking out, you should probably try to sort your own life out enough to not rely on others for happiness. Is it selfish to get into a fatal car accident? Or maybe to die of old age?
-You hurt your tribe by depriving them of your skills!
This is probably the only argument I buy as semi-valid. However, now that we have modern medicine (and penicillin!) most people survive into adulthood. We do not have a shortage of labor, if anything we have an abundance of it.
-You need to talk to a mental health specialist, you need help!
Well, that's probably good advice, but the point isn't to have some psychologist talk you out of suicide or put you on happy pills, the point is to be able to work through all of the pros and cons and come to an informed decision that works for you. Sadly, talking openly about suicide usually gets you put on 24 hour observation as a legal requirement, so...maybe this is something that you should think about on your own.
-It gets better!
How do you know? Got a time machine you haven't told me about?

I wanna be clear that I'm not saying "go kill yerself". I'm not. I'm saying: Reflect honestly on your life, reflect honestly on your previous accomplishments, and what you can accomplish in the future, and decide for yourself if you want to continue living. This is the most important decision you'll ever make in your life, so spend some time on it. Most suicides happen on a whim just because you were sad and happened to own a gun or some pills or had a nearby bridge. That's the kind of thing I would prevent. If someone has thought long and hard about their lives, and decided that continued existence wasn't worth it, I could not in good conscience stop them. As the OP analogy went, they're miserable at the party, they just wanna leave, and I don't have any right to force them to stay against their will. Life is a party, not a prison.

I think most of the "christian" ideals of suicide being "evil" or "sinful" was based on the tribe idea I mentioned before. When people regularly died of infections and injuries and more able-bodied hands were always necessary, suicide actually hurt society. Now? Not so much. However, christian ideals seem to have stuck around out of habit. (As long as they're convenient, lot of "Good Christians" violating the first commandment for reasons they see as justified, completely ignoring the binary nature of the commandment.)


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Offlinetump
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Kryptos]
    #23521056 - 08/08/16 03:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Suicide is evil form a Christian or any monotheism. Conspect wise god knows all and created all. Including your life, but since he knows all they must stand out side the possible time loop. In any case death like any fate will happen weather you force it or not. Where most Christian conscripts fail to tell is suicide is evil becausr you are suppost to live in chirst and make others join through out your life. We live in a era where we do more damage staying alive at 85 then dieing earlier. Statement two is just wasted on me.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: tump]
    #23521530 - 08/08/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No, suicide is evil from the perspective of any society without access to reliable healthcare. Religion is just normally used to propagate the idea that it is evil, as it was one of the first ideas we came up with and propagated. As much as I like hating on organized religion, I cannot blame them for this.

Again, the point is that before approximately 1850, every life was incredibly important and had a lot of value, because many people died young from causes we did not understand and could not fix, and many people died for things that we would laugh off now. (Small cut? Minor infection? Go get some antibiotics! Oh, no antibiotics? Well, pick your favorite pine box.) Society needed you alive and productive, because there were way more things to produce than people to produce them. That has changed.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Kryptos]
    #23521832 - 08/08/16 12:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

every bodies somebodies everything.
nobodies nothing.

OK, now lets look at your 1.
Quote:

We have determined that there is no specific need for an individual to live. In terms of evidence, we have no signs of intelligent life on nearby planets, our existence appears to be the result of chance, not purpose, and our bodies gradually decay and die leading to inevitable oblivion. Most individuals forget not only their life but also the lives of the dead in a matter of days. The value or significance of an individual life is statistically negligible considering the massive population of the human species. Despite subjective accounts that the experience of life is precious, rare, and, for many, pleasurable, the phenomenon is no more unique than other subjective experiences such as dreams, near-death experiences, and out of body experiences. Presence of life on Earth is irrelevant with regard to other matter and/or entities that may exist elsewhere in the universe. Furthermore, the amount of time that physical beings were nonexistent implies that physical existence of animated bodies is a byproduct or excrement of the universe.  Extraterrestrial beings who have no desire for life on Earth may safely disband and eradicate it. Since the costs of living sometimes exceed the benefits, intelligent subjects may freely discard any human life or body including their own.




first of all, who is this we who has determined there is no specific need for an individual to live?
the Nazis?
As well, from what specific context are you using the word need here?
The first sentence just seems so incredibly ...wrong.
  there is no specific need for the word 'need' when speaking of existence, or living.
The only need when living is to continue living.
Since this need is specific to the individual living, your first statement is illogical and fallacious.

You also seem to contradict yourself with regards to 'value' when you say that there is no intelligent life on other planets, and then state that intelligent life evolved by pure chance on our own planet.

If we are the only intelligent life (seriously though, we are not even the most intelligent life-form on the planet), wouldn't that make the entire species quite valuable in a universe seemingly devoid of intelligence?

As well, given a finite universe which spawned intelligence intelligent enough to figure out its eventual demise, would it be logical to assume that, given a long enough time-line and ever-evolving knowledge (such as the time-binding sort we humans are capable of), that a civilization at the end of time-space would figure out a way for more time?
In such a scenario, the purpose of life would be to save the universe (I mean, since life is a part of the universe and all)
There are multiple thought experiments which reveal a purpose of life or two in the universe.


Your statement stating that individual life is statistically negligent given the vast population of our species may be right from a mathematical point of view, but little else.

from the point of view of say another human, I think its obvious that nearly every human would agree that every individual life is incredibly important and valuable, if only to one another...and isn't that really all that matters?

the fact that we are of the universe, composed of atoms which have been around since the beginning of the universe, doesn't mean we are the 'excrement' of the universe...it means we are not separate from the universe.

Since we are the universe, the question on the purpose of life is synonymous with questions such as,
What is the purpose of gravity?
Clearly, there is a purpose.
We just haven't figured it out yet.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineAlonzo
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: hTx]
    #23524516 - 08/09/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23524897 - 08/09/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
... my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, ....On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...





I did not read the whole thread,

why? because the opening statement already shows con-fusion

3 things are con-fused that should be sep-arated

1) you want to be rational

2) why should some one care -- that is feeling / emotion

3) what is the value of life --- moral philosophical

But

but emotion is not reasonable

and reason is not emotional

(math aint love (unless you're a mathematician of course))

and philosophy usually mixes in judgements and beliefs (although it pretends it doesn't do so without  good reason) which con-fuses 'things' further.

one can feel anything about life one wants without justification, hence people have moods etc. One might prefer to generally feel positive - but that is another matter.

from a rational view point we can say things about how 'life' functions, as opposed to 'non living' matter, but we cannot step outside of the experiencing of living that is happening moment to moment to judge it objectively from some hypothetical outside vantage point. Of course conceptual thinking does attempt to do this all the time. But conceptual thinking is of course always somewhat escapist.

It is precisely because certain things inhibit thought that they make us feel more alive. Like sex, skiing, car racing, mountain climbing.
Whereas being overly intellectual is deadening - hence the cliche of the stuffy boring philosophy and literature professors. People seek out dangerous activities to find greater connection with experiencing living. As a result some people confuse adventure with 'really living'.

But the heart of the matter is simply understanding that awareness is the pinnacle life, and that thought is neither awareness, life, or yourself. But thinking about this is not the experiencing of it.

for nit pickers


But the heart of the matter is simply understanding that awareness is the pinnacle life, and that thought is neither awareness, (the essence of) life, or 'yourself'. But thinking about this is not the experiencing of it.


Edited by laughingdog (08/09/16 01:40 PM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23525187 - 08/09/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:
Very interesting and open-minded replies. I know some of the statements and ideas I wrote about are a little faulty, but my goal was for a majority of the statements to make sense, appear rational, or have some truth to them. I like pondering nihilism and the belief that life is absurd/pointless/unnecessary and wanted to see what others thought. On why should someone should care about anything or give a **** about life? What value does it have, etc...






you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.


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Re: The Value of Life [Re: zzripz]
    #23525286 - 08/09/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:


you use the gif of the Greek Sisyphus myth where he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it roll down again, and this thankless and pointless task was to go on eternally. I think I remember reading that this is the nihilist interpretation a dualistic mindset had of the sun which every day rises to its summit and then descends only to do same journey next day, and so on, and on and on. To dualistic mindsets nature becomes a trap of the 'spirit'. The 'heroic ego' wants a linear movement from a to be. A 'beginning and an 'end'. This is why in its myths you get this motif of some time which will be the 'End'
This mindset has no understanding of cycles or spirals. To such a mindset this is utterly pointless, a trap going nowhere. it wants to get somewhere. But when you look what their myths say, their 'ends' are all static, one-sided---places that have no darkness to alternate and mix diversely with light, not death which dances in myriad variations with what we call life, no time within which is 'always' the eternal. Eternity is NOT time. It is not a thing which is different FROm 'time', it is a dynamic which does not exclude time, yet still is beyond time. People with psychedelic experience know this.
The materialist (with the hidden occultists behind the scenes) culture's 'end' is a transhumanist dream where technology promises to liberate 'man', but from what I see, THAT becomes the ultimate trap because it sucks the spirit needed to connect with the natural world, and all the mysterious subtleties thereof which awareness gives.




:thumbup:


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OfflineFlowerofTitania
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Re: The Value of Life [Re: Alonzo]
    #23525547 - 08/09/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

White Fang said:
There's a quote from Mr. Robot that really hit home for me in regards to this topic.

"Existence could be beautiful, or it could be ugly. But that's on you. Dream. You gotta find out the future you're fighting for. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and really envision that shit bro. If you like it then it's beautiful. If you don't... You might as well fade the fuck out right now."




Thing is that no vision can change what reality is, suffering. You are deluding yourself otherwise.


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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D 13,100 133 07/12/05 10:37 PM
by GNIOM1498
* The utter pointlessness of it PjS 1,272 16 01/20/02 10:59 AM
by World Spirit
* There isn't intelligent life out there reason 2
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Dogomush 9,420 141 09/07/09 10:46 AM
by sandman3698
* Exsistance is pointless... (prove me wrong, plz)
( 1 2 3 all )
ShrooomKing 4,308 45 04/22/11 08:20 PM
by jjdiggincrates
* There isn't intelligent life on other planets
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Dogomush 5,395 79 02/06/06 03:44 PM
by TheGus
* Being religious contradicts being intelligent?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
inetiatic 8,280 73 02/22/07 11:11 PM
by Continuum
* Evolution and intelligence?
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 4,971 50 12/23/08 01:37 AM
by OrgoneConclusion

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