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OfflineMordecai1
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Do you believe in the immortal human soul?
    #23512548 - 08/05/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have had a lot of experiences with Psilocin and 4-ACO-DMT. Throughout my trips in the past years I have felt many different aspects of spirituality, surrounding the realm of Buddhism. I have had feelings of being on a side that the living could not see. As I listen into the music I can feel my spirit becoming warm by the sounds and the voice that I follow. I can feel my spirit glowing and I suddenly start to realize that we all have immortal spirits, how is it that my mind is doing all of this, how is it that people really don't believe in a spirit. I believe if people have seen what us shroomers have seen, they would think otherwise.

The point is this, when we see all of these visions and we can feel and see of these different aspects of spirituality and reincarnation, than how is it that the soul does not exist? I personally believe that if the immortal human spirit did not exist than we would not be capable of being able to feel these different aspects of Buddhism within the mushroom trip. I refuse to believe that neuroscience is responsible for being to feel these different aspects of the spirit. There is so much that science can't really explain even though science has already come extremely far, there is still sooooo much that science can't explain.

Maybe I'm just fooling myself but after seeing everything that I've seen from the mushroom, I really find it hard to believe that there is not a life after death.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Mordecai1]
    #23512595 - 08/05/16 12:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe in a soul that will be condemned to a life in heaven or hell.  I find that consciousness exists.  Being human I cannot let go of the idea that it can no longer exist.  So I believe change occurs at death which can also occur on psychedelics.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23512618 - 08/05/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The more I feel such things, such intimate connection and synchronicities as could only be tied to something infinite in every way, the less I feel I can ever 'know' anything about them. Certainly not on this plane of existence.

I feel I've come to a point now where I have felt enough guidance as to my true path, I now just need to practice. IF there is something on the other side, that's what I feel this life is best devoted to. The more I practice, the more I feel the connection. And besides, feeling the connection, using psyche's or not, is the best feeling I know - what could be a better passtime??

**Apologies if my post comes off a little cryptic, but talking about such things as have zero solidity in our material world is quite tricky IMO.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Anonymous #1

Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23512643 - 08/05/16 12:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Spirituality and religion stems from our emotional survival instinct conflicting with our intellectual knowledge that we will die.

You can believe anything, anything at all but only through science can you understand. Do you pray for your car to start, your computer to work? your cancer to go away? Or do you see a mechanic, computer repair man or a doctor?

Who knows if we have an immortal soul science can only prove facts it can't disprove anything! But religion and spirituality exist only due to our emotional needs good being anything that help us while evil is anything that harm us, black and white for those too simple to understand the cause and effect reality that we all exist in regardless of our "beliefs".


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Mordecai1]
    #23512675 - 08/05/16 12:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe there's an immortal anything personally, and I don't necessarily believe in a soul at all. I do think that even if one exists and it is eternal then it's still irrelevant to some extent.

No body has memories of past lives so IMO we either all popped into existence for the first time in this life, or even if it is eternal and we get reincarnated we won't have any memory of this one like we don't have memory of the last ones so even if there is life after death, we won't know anything of this life when we die, everything we love or find important, any memory or idea that shapes us into who we are dies with us. Do you believe all life has immortal souls? If not then why do you consider humans to have them? (just curious, not being condescending)

"There is so much that science can't really explain even though science has already come extremely far, there is still sooooo much that science can't explain"

Imo science is still in it's infancy and only seems to have gotten so far because at every current moment and every little advancement it's the furthest it's ever been, 200 years from now everything we consider advanced will probably be considered childs play or common sense to science :shrug: Not having an explanation doesn't suggest anything, it just means we don't know yet.

I think souls and the afterlife are an interesting idea and I think about it quite often, but I never personally find a reason to believe any of it and in some sense hope there isn't one.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: SirShroomsAlott] * 1
    #23512692 - 08/05/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have seen some place out of this world.  I also had a dream of what my cell mate's father did in the war the night before he told me. 

All in all human mind is small and has no idea what a bigger experience another mind can have.  There are a lot of ways a spiritual mind could function and experience itself or others.  The growth is finding more ways to communicate and that us guard with a rigid brain.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #23512696 - 08/05/16 12:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Spirituality and religion stems from our emotional survival instinct conflicting with our intellectual knowledge that we will die.



And just how do you know this to be the case my good sir? You talk in absolutes, or am I misinterpreting?

Quote:

Anonymous said:
You can believe anything, anything at all but only through science can you understand.



Mate, I'm sorry if this comes over a little harsh but I call total BS on that. Tell me how the Buddha, or Jesus (whether they were fictional or not, the minds that developed that knowledge existed 2,500 odd years ago, when science was in its infancy) knew the path to being the best that a human can be, of understanding this and with how to connect with everything?

IMO, they had a far better understanding of how we, as a species, should conform ourselves then any of the scientific principals we currently live by.

Have you considered the fact that spirituality (underneath which I include the heading 'religion') is perhaps perpetually existent in our species because maybe there is something so far greater than our puny human minds can even begin to contemplate at work behind the scenes here? Have you seen that photo of clusters of galaxies captured by Hubble? If whatever force it is that's at work created that I find it arrogant in humans to believe we have any hope of understanding it.

Hence why I do not subscribe to any dogmatic religion, the more recent dogma of science, or your belief that 'Spirituality and religion stems from our emotional survival instinct conflicting with our intellectual knowledge that we will die'.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23512708 - 08/05/16 12:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I started reading the book "The Denial of Death" yesterday at passing recommendation in another thread. Already halfway through it. One concept that really stood out to me is the idea that the unconscious mind has no conception of death. Consciously, we can rationalize the effects of death and realize that time doesn't stop just because your heart does. However, the unconscious mind doesn't really bother with higher thinking, focusing instead on sensations (like hunger) and body maintenance.

I think this is an extremely relevant idea here. According to your unconscious mind, you are functionally immortal: You are alive, you exist, your heart beats, and occasionally you need to poo. The flip side being that at the point of death, your unconscious mind ceases to exist. Along with your conscious mind, it doesn't get any sensory input/output, therefore it cannot know that it is dead. The only knowledge that your unconscious mind ever had or will have is of being alive. Therefore, it is always alive, therefore immortal.

A philosophical idea (that argued for a higher power) I heard at one point in college went along the lines of:
There are 26 fundamental constants in the universe, and if any of them were not exactly as they are, we could not exist. What are the chances of these concepts lining up exactly as they have by chance?
The counterargument, which I think is brilliantly simple:
100% chance.

Why? Because as far as we know, or will ever know, these constants lined up perfectly. Score 1. Since we aren't capable of experiencing reality without these constants as they are, as far as we know, the score is 1/1. 100% chance.

The same kind of concept is present here. Do we have an immortal soul? Well, the unconscious mind is alive and well, and has been for as long as it remembers, and will be for as long as it will remember. That must mean it is immortal. Score? 1/1. We don't have definitive proof that the maximum score can be greater than one, because as the old adage goes, "dead men tell no tales".

I think this idea can be used to describe the feeling of the immortal soul. The soul is traditionally your spirit, your agency, the driving force behind your existence. Much like how the unconscious mind keeps you alive and well by making sure your heart keeps beating and your lungs keep breathing. And it believes it is immortal, as it has never experienced mortality, and will never experience mortality and be around to reflect upon the experience. So, we get this concept of the "immortal soul", born from a deep feeling of immortality in the recesses of everyone's mind. I do not buy that the concept of the immortal soul is a form of escapism from the reality that death is inevitable (as argued by many people I know, as well as mentioned by Anon#1 above). It is too pervasive a concept throughout vastly different cultures and times, which all have/had vastly different values and beliefs.

As I've mentioned before at some point, I think of mushrooms (and psychedelics in general) as a force that destroys you, and forces your brain to reassemble the pieces into a cohesive whole. That's how you get from childlike incessant laughter in the beginning of the trip, to basic functionality, to being able to use words, then sentences, then finally sobriety. The thing is, the unconscious mind is not significantly affected by this. If it was, it would also forget how to operate your heart and you'd die. As a result, you end up with deeply spiritual experiences, in which you imagine the immortal soul that the unconscious mind believes in, caused simply by your conscious mind being too busy laughing at the walls to hold the reigns. The unconscious mind, in this analogy, is sort of like the DD that drives their drunk friends home. The DD basically declares the rules, as everyone else is too messed up to think or care.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23512714 - 08/05/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ever see flat liners?  That is a trippy story.

The better question is the universe alive and is there more than the universe? We are what is out there, deep inside us but do we recognize ourself?


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23512722 - 08/05/16 12:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I thought the unconscious mind was very much experienced when tripping.  There are also other methods.  The fact that we will continue to live is what is difficult to experience.  No longer existing has only problems those that want.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Kryptos]
    #23512760 - 08/05/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm really glad you're reading Denial of Death Kryptos, it was I that recommended it; it really is a stunning work.

I really enjoyed reading your thesis, and it all resonates, except this part:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The thing is, the unconscious mind is not significantly affected by this.



To the best of my understanding, the unconscious mind is entirely uninvolved with any bodily functions. I believe it it's only input/output mechanism is via the conscious mind. Hence dreams perhaps - a way of filtering data into the unconscious.

I'm lucky to have had the chance to connect with my unconscious very briefly, on a couple of occasions in my life. Both times completely sober, and in therapy sessions. It felt like this:



A brief splash up of total understanding from an infinite sea. So unlike a conscious experience that I had to sit head in hands in silence trying to grasp it after it left. I may well have accessed it deep in meditation or in the psychedelic state, but never was it so clear as those times.

When it comes to experiences or operating bodily functions, I believe this to be the most reasonable explanation:



--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23512775 - 08/05/16 01:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have a different view on the unconscious mind.  I believe it can mainifest into reality outside of ourself completely unaware to the conscious mind until it is known/experienced.  This is what the bottom triangle in the Star of David represents.  The upper triangle is the material world or the conscious mind experiencing the spiritual or unconscious.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23512806 - 08/05/16 01:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
The upper triangle is the material world or the conscious mind experiencing the spiritual or unconscious.



I kinda get that man. It kinda fits in with something I just queried in another thread:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

TJDShroomer said:
Reality is a holographic matrix projected by the consciousnesses within.




Quite right, imo.




--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Do you believe in the immortal human soul? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23512854 - 08/05/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I'm really glad you're reading Denial of Death Kryptos, it was I that recommended it; it really is a stunning work.

I really enjoyed reading your thesis, and it all resonates, except this part:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The thing is, the unconscious mind is not significantly affected by this.



To the best of my understanding, the unconscious mind is entirely uninvolved with any bodily functions. I believe it it's only input/output mechanism is via the conscious mind. Hence dreams perhaps - a way of filtering data into the unconscious.





Yeah, I know, the only reason I didn't mention you specifically is because when I started composing that, you hadn't chimed in yet. Second reason is your name color makes it hard to read, therefore remember, and (with hindsight being 20/20) I would have mis-attributed the recommendation.

I guess I define the difference in unconscious/conscious mind slightly differently for that thesis. My division was: conscious mind does everything I actively think about, and unconscious mind does everything I don't think about. Using the lizard/mammalian/human brain graphic, my definition would put the Lizard and ~90% of the mammalian category into unconscious, while the human and dregs of mammalian (specifically, the decisions, while the reasoning, including emotion, habits, etc would be unconscious) left over fall into conscious. I'm not saying the triune is wrong as a definition of mind, I just think it is not as applicable as my simplified duality in this specific case.


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