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OfflineSource
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The Wise Man Points To The Moon...
    #2351199 - 02/18/04 06:09 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

?And Everyone Looks At His Finger.

Idolatry is the act of setting up an image or model and worshipping it as God. Now I?m sure most of us aren?t praying to a wood statue convinced that it really is God, but we are still guilty of idolatry and it is this idolatry which keeps us from realizing truth.

Truth exists. It is everything as it is ? right now. Even as you read this, at this moment truth is open to you. It?s right in front of you in the ever present reality of existence. This is all the truth there is or ever will be, right here right now. The problem is we don?t see it because our idols are in the way.

We create an idol every time we conceptualize. The concept is an abstract model of reality created out of language, thought, measurement and visualization. TREE ? that word set off a search in your head and an abstract model of a ?tree? popped up in your consciousness. The problem is that we begin to pay more attention to our concept of a tree rather than the reality of the actually existing truth itself. We no longer see the real tree, the real truth, when we look at a tree our concept gets laid over it and we look at that instead.

This looking at our concepts rather than truth itself is exactly what is meant by ?maya? ? illusion. Alan Watts believed that ?Maya?, ?Matrix? and ?Matter? are all derived from the same word ?Ma? and implies the breaking up of the undifferentiated reality of existence into units of thought that can be conceptualized. This is extremely powerful and is responsible for language, culture, technology etc.; However, we mustn?t forget that we are only dealing in models and begin to BELIEVE in the models themselves.

?If you want to see the truth, stop cherishing your beliefs?

When we say we believe something we are declaring that our conceptual idol is in fact TRUTH and it is therefore ?God?. This is blatant idolatry. The best a concept can do is point in the direction of truth. A belief or concept can never be truth itself. The validity of a concept or teaching is determined by the degree to which it points directly at truth. The more directly it points, the more valid it is.

Are you a skeptic? Good. If I told you there was a lion in your backyard would you believe me? No? Good. But you may have enough faith that it may be true to go and look for yourself, right? Guatama Buddha, Christ, Krishna, and many others have claimed to have discovered something and have provided maps that we can follow so we can discover for ourselves what they have found. They are the wise men pointing to the moon. The really amazing thing is that all their maps are remarkably similar. And what they have found is an everlasting treasure. So do you want to sit around and argue about the maps and whether or not they lead anywhere or are you willing to strike out and follow the map and find out for yourself? It means you will have to take your eyes off the map. It means you will have to drop all your beliefs about what truth is. It means you will have to become like a child again and stop thinking you know everything and have all the answers. ?Unless you are like a child, you will not enter the Kingdom of God?. Oh yeah, it means you have to die to yourself also. Ouch.

Now I don't mean to imply that you aren't out to find out for yourself what truth really is...I just wanted to remind you not to take your concepts, beliefs and unbeliefs too seriously because ultimately they are only a hinderance to realizing the truth.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2351360 - 02/18/04 06:46 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Truth itself is a concept, bro. I don't think there is such a thing as undeniable truth.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2351380 - 02/18/04 06:51 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote from Younger Brother - The Finger (I think taken from an old Bruce Lee movie):

"It is like a finger that points to the moon... Don't look at the FINGER, or you'll miss ALL the HEAVENLY GLORY!"

I find this quote kind of strange though now because hell we can go right up onto the moon and point back down


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2351382 - 02/18/04 06:52 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Yeah, I agree. Even truth itself has to be tossed. Then what's left? It can't be named.


Edited by Source (02/18/04 06:55 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2352855 - 02/19/04 02:22 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I think I know what you're saying about idols and whatnot... but I just don't think it applies to everyone. For the record, some of us don't have beliefs like you imply we have (I have no set-in-stone anything... maybe working beliefs...).

Also, what's new about any of these memes you're sharing?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2353905 - 02/19/04 09:46 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Yeah, I agree. Even truth itself has to be tossed. Then what's left? It can't be named.




Since we have to use concepts to communicate, here's one that describes what's left: "pure experience". "Mere observation" would describe it too.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2353950 - 02/19/04 10:05 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I totally agree with you Source. You are tuned in to unconseptualized perception :thumbup:

My first realization when under the inlfluence of psilocybin was how all labels I had put on things suddenly fell off and how only the essence, or the truth, of these things remained.

Truth is not something that is ABOUT something (as 2+2=4), thruth is a movement within, a deep resonance with 'what is'.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2354823 - 02/19/04 03:08 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

The_Visionaire said:
My first realization when under the inlfluence of psilocybin was how all labels I had put on things suddenly fell off and how only the essence, or the truth, of these things remained.





Hehe, once when I was tripping and I got a little overwhelmed by it all (I was sort of peaking, like near the point of totally disconnecting from reality, and someone staying at the house who I never thought would walk in my room walked in, TURNED ON MY LIGHT, and handed me a remote and started talking, handing me the remote.. I didn't have any clue what she said and I pointed to a button and said some stuff, no clue what)...

Anyways, I knew that something had changed. I even remembered the phrase "mushroom" and tried associating it with the experience.. it didn't work. The word carried no meaning. All I had was the experience... which is strange because I was still able to think well enough... it was... totally insane...  :mushroom2:

Or my other trip where I didn't know who or what I was, and I rediscovered it all sitting in the dark on my floor (my friend was on my bed) because when we were peaking, a thunderstorm rolled in and took out the power.... totally insane.

And I still reflect on those mushroom trips and remember more of the experience... it can be felt, not just vaugely recalled....

And then I try explaining it and get lost in it all and end up sounding crazy.  :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2355620 - 02/19/04 06:09 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

>>and someone staying at the house who I never thought would walk in my room walked in, TURNED ON MY LIGHT, and handed me a remote and started talking, handing me the remote..

This is very funny :grin:
What kind of woman would commit such an inhuman act!?

>>Or my other trip where I didn't know who or what I was, and I rediscovered it all sitting in the dark on my floor (my friend was on my bed) because when we were peaking, a thunderstorm rolled in and took out the power.... totally insane.

The force was with you that day my friend :mushroom2:

>>And then I try explaining it and get lost in it all and end up sounding crazy.

Don`t worry. I understand you, but beware of the white-coats :tongue2:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2356681 - 02/19/04 09:53 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

>> It means you will have to take your eyes off the map. It means you will have to drop all your beliefs about what truth is. It means you will have to become like a child again and stop thinking you know everything and have all the answers. ?Unless you are like a child, you will not enter the Kingdom of God?. Oh yeah, it means you have to die to yourself also. Ouch.

We mustn't confuse the map with the territory, and conceive of the map as the territory itself.

This is an incredibly valuable piece of wisdom, and my gratitude for it comes from the depths of my heart.  This answers a lot of personal questions about the fruits of my own spiritual path.  This makes me slap my head and feel foolish.  Only when we feel foolish are we progressing along our spiritual path.  Five prostrations to you, as one of those who guides me along the spiritual path.

Thank you again.  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :heart:


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Source]
    #2358206 - 02/20/04 08:13 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

They are a hinderance if you believe that you will ever find any real truth - and why would one physical lifetime yield any greater inroads into the human condition than a thousand documented lifetimes?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359146 - 02/20/04 01:47 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
They are a hinderance if you believe that you will ever find any real truth - and why would one physical lifetime yield any greater inroads into the human condition than a thousand documented lifetimes?




I don't know.. maybe because it is impossible to document the inner experiences of someone's life. If you think the truth is going to be something that people get statues for and have books written about, you probably aren't looking in the right place.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2359168 - 02/20/04 01:50 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

The_Visionaire said:
This is very funny :grin:
What kind of woman would commit such an inhuman act!?




A well-meaning woman who had no understanding of what was going to be behind that door when she opened it.  :blush: The question that is going to haunt me until the end of time itself is if I actually carried on a normal conversation with her and I just didn't realize it, or if I honestly couldn't understand what she was saying and I spit out a load of gibberish and it totally fucked with her head... *shrugs*

:nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2361920 - 02/21/04 01:33 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

The type of 'truth' your suggesting here is some sort of knowledge or learning about the human condition and the meaning of life. People who think they have access to some divine insight not available to the average joe plumber, are often self-indulgent or do so to prop up their own lagging feelings of low self-worth - by denying their own averageness by suggesting they have some great insight that others do not have, they are trying to validate their own self importance. These truths are often just constructs of your mind used to facilitate an easier life, to perpetuate ones current lifestyle choices, or to make this person feel better about their lack of control over their own mortality - a belief system enables them to believe they have some control or influence over these inevitable aspects of the human condition when in truth they have none.
The only truths available in this life are those suggested my Lao Tzu - the only truth is that the reality of things is far beyond our comprehension here in the mortal world. And the more that one thinks they understand about the scheme of things, the less they really do.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2362769 - 02/21/04 07:46 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

First off, if someone thinks they have some sort of divine insight that isn't available to anyone, they obviously don't have any. It is available to all. You just have to be standing at the right vantage point.  :laugh:

The sad thing is, is that there are a lot of people like what you are describing. A lot of people think too narrowly and don't put the pieces of the puzzle together. I don't think that this points towards the inability to know the truth at all.

To think that we can't comprehend the reality of things is sort of skewed. It is skewed because we HAVE developed more of an understanding of exactly what all of this is. If cavemen would have come to accept that one can't know anything beyond what they identify with, vauge emotions and dim awareness, we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have a constant threat to our survival, we wouldn't have all these branches of knowledge that give us the possibillity of being where we are right now. We continue to expand our awareness of what is around us.

We aren't some animal who cannot conceptualize. We learn and expand our perspective. I understand the world and who I am a lot more now than when I was a kid and appreciate it more. When one is a kid, it is a total experience, but one is incapable of surviving without someone protecting you. I understand more now and am capable of standing on my own, but yet I embrace the experience. The truth is already there. The only thing that seperates ourselves from the truth is ourselves. The truth is like an intense white light that surrounds us.

We're on a path of evolution. We continue to expand our knowledge and develop our understanding. I'd prefer to be in a state of knowing bliss than one of an ignorant bliss. The difference? One understands what is instead of just letting go of reality. Knowing is quite the thing. It enhances the experience offered to us during our time here.  :wink:

Mmm.. profound, mystical understanding... peace and contentment in the moment. THAT is what it is all about.  :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleKackleDude
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2373923 - 02/24/04 12:24 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Perhaps our ability to reflect on existance and strive to understand there is something more.. divine, that unknown that eludes our reality (which I think there is) can be traced back to that animal brain that's striving to simply reflect on its own existance and recognize life as a thing to marvel over..

..We are that animal, striving to understand the beauty of what we do not understand, the higher level of consciousness that has yet to evolve. We're like the monkey that wants to know what lays beyond the reality of banannas.


--------------------
yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: KackleDude]
    #2374773 - 02/24/04 06:18 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

It could be that animal brain... but you have to ask, what is it that made us first question "why?" Somewhere there was a spark.... what could that spark have been? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleKackleDude
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2388635 - 02/29/04 12:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

what could that spark have been?



some suggest that spark could've been the first mushrooms munched upon by monkey-men. 's an interesting thing to contemplate indeed. I know when I first did psychadelics I certainly questioned 'why?'. The answer is one of those things that we may spend our entire lives questioning, gotta wait till the very end to discover the answer I think.


--------------------
yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: The Wise Man Points To The Moon... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2392904 - 03/01/04 11:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"It could be that animal brain... but you have to ask, what is it that made us first question "why?" Somewhere there was a spark.... what could that spark have been?"

Now first off just think about this for a minute. Ever see an animal confronted by something unknown? What do they do? Damn near the same thing as any other animal, or any person, would do, a reaction that people can identify and label and understand. Like a puppy cocking its head and looking at something.. all kinds of animals have that same reaction, and really, that's just a "why" reaction.. or maybe a "what" reaction but they're both mighty, mighty close.. in any case it's a questioning reaction, and since so many animals react the same way.. it's got to be a fairly early thing, and probably would have developed the same in any animal with a similar brain.
At the very least I'd imagine the reaction is just a way to bring one's senses to fuller attention and concentrate on a specific spot of interest.. but I don't know, I think even that much could very easily be part of a sort of questioning set of thoughts, and we just had so much extra thinkin' space that we could use it to question things outside of our immediate surroundings and experience. Which would really just make it one big overgrown instinct. Im gonna stop here cause i'm already just rambling, but.. i.. think i might've had a point up in there


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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