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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Veridical Near Death Experiences * 2
    #23511218 - 08/04/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)





Darkstar, a respected shroomery member here, reported an amazing near death experience following an overdose.

I think this remarkable story deserves to be more widely read:

" I stood up to sterilize the syringe, and the rush hit me so hard that I fell back down into the recliner I'd been sitting in. There was a split second of "Whooaa.....it's never been like this before" and then my last memory before I lost consciousness was trying to take a breath, and failing. Next thing I knew, I was gone. The place I was in was bright & beautiful. I remember white light everywhere, and I also remember that there was more to it than just the light. My memory of this is extremely hazy, but I seem to recall the setting being a beautiful garden, and there was an archway. I felt a serenity & peace that I hadn't felt in a very long time. I had come home, and everything was OK. I cannot begin to express the sense of relief that had come to soothe my tortured soul. The warmth opiated bliss of heroin couldn't touch the way that I was feeling, and hadn't really provided much in the way of real relief in a while anyway.

One thing I knew was that I never wanted to leave this place. The thing is, I wasn't alone. My companions in this place expressed some concern as to my presence. They made it known that I wasn't supposed to be there....it wasn't my time. I expressed to them that I didn't want to go, but they were adamant. They also asked me what I was doing, and told me that I had work to do, and that I was on a very wrong path; to get my shit together. This was all expressed telepathically; primarily through feeling...and the sense of serenity & love remained. There was no hostility, just loving concern. I still didn't want to leave, but again was reminded that it wasn't my time.


At this moment I jolted upright with a giant gasp of air.

That experience sticks in my mind and inspires me when I'm feeling down. I've made a lot of changes & progress in my life, with my reasoning being the content of that experience. "Your work is not done." That's some seriously powerful shit to hear when you're that close to being gone for good.  It's definitely had a profound effect on me
."



Now, for the first time in human history, modern medicine is regularly reviving people from states of medical death- both cardiac and brain death. As a result, for the first time we have a large and growing body of first person accounts of what the dying experience is like, and this kind of profound Near Death Experience is fairly common.

Although various theories have been proposed, these experiences are fascinating and are certainly not fully explained or understood

However, in some ways the most interesting category of Near death experience is the "Veridical" near death experience.

The following scenario illustrates a veridical Near death experience and its possible implications:


If a person who has no brain activity and no heart activity; lying dead with eyes closed on an operating table, floats out of their body and witnesses a surgery occurring in a room A few doors down , is (after being revived) able to accurately recount specific details of what was happening in that other room , and this information is corroborated by other people, then it is clear that the person's consciousness was able to exist and percieve independently of the body and the brain.


This fact does not invalidate science, it simply reveals what we already know- that our scientific models are always evolving and sometimes are radically transformed by new discoveries. Obviously our current scientific models will be completely replaced in due time to accommodate new discoveries - such as the discovery that consciousness can exist independent of the body and brain , and that consciousness can continue after biological death.

"some self-reports of NDErs have been independently corroborated by witnesses... these are corroborated veridical NDE perceptions—perceptions that can be proven to coincide with reality


The scientific NDE studies performed over the past decades indicate that heightened mental functions can be experienced independently of the body at a time when brain activity is greatly impaired or seemingly absent (such as during cardiac arrest). Some of these studies demonstrate that blind people can have veridical perceptions during OBEs associated with an NDE. Other investigations show that NDEs often result in deep psychological and spiritual changes.

These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity. As we have seen, such a view fails to account for how NDErs can experience—while their hearts are stopped—vivid and complex thoughts and acquire veridical information about objects or events remote from their bodies.

NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality."


http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/




--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (08/04/16 10:46 PM)


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23511529 - 08/05/16 01:54 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Fine I'll post the story of me dying(briefly) in a class 5 whitewater later,it's a long story and I remember most moments . I was out of the raft for 550 yards


Class 5: Whitewater, large waves, continuous rapids, large rocks and hazards, maybe a large drop, precise maneuvering. Often characterized by "must make" moves, i.e. failure to execute a specific maneuver at a specific point may result in serious injury or death. Class 5 is sometimes expanded to Class 5+ that describes the most extreme, runnable rapids (Skill Level: Expert)

This is the wiki entry for the definition of a class 5 rapid. Also the water level reached record levels it wasn't user error because I'm damn good at whitewater rafting.

Luckily I just got serious injury


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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Invisiblenooneman
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Registered: 04/24/09
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Loc: Utah
Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23511546 - 08/05/16 02:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'll be the first to admit that NDEs are probably (almost certainly?) just all biological. However my psychedelic use has made me very interested in altered states of consciousness and this is no different. Plus, my psychedelic use has tempered my skepticism somewhat. Plus this has the added bonus of asking the question: what if one of these highly altered states can actually access something (anything) that can't normally be accessed? If there is even the smallest chance that something along those lines is possible, isn't it worth exploring?

Now that's probably crazy and this is almost certainly all biology, but I'm still very interested in it personally.

I have no real experiences to personally contribute. There was a time when I was beaten unconscious, and another time that I randomly blacked out. I'm not sure either qualifies, but I experienced unusual things during both. The most disturbing of the two being a long moment of nothingness and blackness when I was beaten unconscious. But again, I'm sure my brain was still functioning at the time.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: nooneman]
    #23511571 - 08/05/16 02:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If a person who has no brain activity and no heart activity; lying dead with eyes closed on an operating table, floats out of their body and witnesses a surgery occurring in a room A few doors down , is (after being revived) able to accurately recount specific details of what was happening in that other room , and this information is corroborated by other people, then it is clear that the person's consciousness was able to exist and percieve independently of the body and the brain.




These people aren't dead. If they were dead, they wouldn't be around to talk about their hallucinations. To prove consciousness exists outside the body, you need to interrogate a consciousness that has originated from an actual dead person. Not an almost dead person, or a nearly dead person.

If consciousness were an independent phenomenon from the physical brain, then consciousnesses could switch bodies or simply leave a body that was still functioning.

None of these accounts of near death experiences are scientifically valid.

How is it that a consciousness can supposedly hear and see things independent of a body, but cannot communicate? If it has non-corporal eyes and non-corporal ears, why not a non-corporal mouth or non-corporal hands to write or a non-corporal Facebook account?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (08/05/16 02:59 AM)


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: koods]
    #23511598 - 08/05/16 03:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you, but we understand so little about qualia and the nature of consciousness even biologically. I think we need to know a lot more about how consciousness works biologically. We need to understand at a biological level why it is that biology should produce qualia at all, and what specifically in the brain produces qualia, and how, etc.

Maybe qualia are purely biological and cease to exist when the brain dies, but in order to say that we would need to understand what produces qualia in the brain in the first place and how. We need to know what the brain is doing to produce qualia, and why that results in qualia. Otherwise we won't be able to say anything definitive about the nature of qualia since we don't understand it even at a biological level.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: nooneman]
    #23511612 - 08/05/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's clearly biological. You can alter consciousness simply by destroying parts of the brain. I think Sam Harris pointed out that a partially damaged brain results in partially damaged consciousness, but an intact consciousness somehow arises from the completely destroyed brain that results from death


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: koods]
    #23511697 - 08/05/16 05:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The production of qualia is clearly biological, but beyond that we know very little. Not all of the brain is conscious. We don't understand how the conscious part produces qualia, or why the unconscious parts do not. We don't understand how the brain produces different types of qualia (eg the experience of sound vs. vision), or why different types of qualia should be as different as sound and color are.

We understand very little about qualia in general even at a biological level. If we understood it clearly at a biological level then I feel like we could confidently say "this is all 100% biology, here let me explain how it works." As it is, we can't even say that we understand how qualia are produced or their function in the brain. All I'm saying is that we need to understand the biology of qualia much more than we do.


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OfflineSonicTitan
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: nooneman]
    #23511780 - 08/05/16 06:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nothing happened for me. No spiritual visions or any sort of passing though or anything. Just gone then back. Not like blackness or even like you go to sleep and wake. It was non existence, just nothing. But even nothing is something when you put thought to it, so its more like less than nothing. I died and came back but it diddnt feel like a journey just gone then back. Noone will ever know until they die and are not revived. Like i said in the other thread even then there wont be a sense of knowing because you will be dead. People cant wrap their heads around non existence or the fact that you just die like everything else. Which is why people need religon because they are scared of the unknown, or they need a sense of meaning or purpose behind death and life.


--------------------
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."



Edited by SonicTitan (08/05/16 06:24 AM)


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InvisibleThayendanegea
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: koods]
    #23512306 - 08/05/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

If a person who has no brain activity and no heart activity; lying dead with eyes closed on an operating table, floats out of their body and witnesses a surgery occurring in a room A few doors down , is (after being revived) able to accurately recount specific details of what was happening in that other room , and this information is corroborated by other people, then it is clear that the person's consciousness was able to exist and percieve independently of the body and the brain.




These people aren't dead. If they were dead, they wouldn't be around to talk about their hallucinations. To prove consciousness exists outside the body, you need to interrogate a consciousness that has originated from an actual dead person. Not an almost dead person, or a nearly dead person.

If consciousness were an independent phenomenon from the physical brain, then consciousnesses could switch bodies or simply leave a body that was still functioning.

None of these accounts of near death experiences are scientifically valid.

How is it that a consciousness can supposedly hear and see things independent of a body, but cannot communicate? If it has non-corporal eyes and non-corporal ears, why not a non-corporal mouth or non-corporal hands to write or a non-corporal Facebook account?




Quote:

None of these accounts of near death experiences are scientifically valid.




Seems to me to be a pretty smug interpretation to say that it is scientifically impossible for this phenomena to occur (detached consciousness) especially when the scientific community is always outdating its own declarations. Just because we do not have the technology to measure or even detect this consciousness does not mean that it doesn't exist. Who knows...20 years from now what science may find.

Spirituality calls this consciousness a soul. Haven't you ever felt the presence of a deceased member of your family or of a friend?....I have, in undeniable fashion.


--------------------
Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: nooneman]
    #23512382 - 08/05/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
I'll be the first to admit that NDEs are probably (almost certainly?) just all biological.



:whathesaid:
a lightbulb still flickers/burns hard for a few milliseconds when its smashed open, then it stops forever.


--------------------

:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23513141 - 08/05/16 02:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just wanted to point out that hole even the normal near death experiences are amazing and I'm so grateful they happen (regardless of if the explanation is strictly chemical and biological or not), this thread is about VERIDICAL near death experiences.

The biochemical explanations can work for normal NDEs, but those Explanations don't work for corroborates near death experiences.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23513193 - 08/05/16 03:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

A google search, https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=vertical%20near%20death%20experience , turned up no scientific/scholarly entries on Vertical NDE's, this doesn't mean it's impossible but it is far from scientific.

Afaik, Any NDE, vertical or not is pretty much just someones anecdotal experience. It doesn't disprove them but there is NO evidence proving they are real.

Sadly, Imo they're probably little more than just nice, "feel good" stories to help people accept their inevitable death.

Who know's though psychedelic experiences are hardly able to be explained, other than the actual neurotransmitters they mimic and which part of the brain the "drugs" effect.

edit: anything that isn't published work is just someones opinion, and still, many things that are published/validated are still an opinion/subject to change.


--------------------

:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



Edited by MysticMoteToter (08/05/16 03:25 PM)


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #23513430 - 08/05/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Read a little bit of this thread.  The dying brain can only be going for so long before permanent damage ensue.  There is a theory that DMT could extend this situation.

I had a near death experience that was similar.  They were more like aliens however.  I wanted in but I don't think they said it was ok.  Who knows what it really is because we can't really experience again, that I'm aware of.  There could be many realities that we are extended to when we die.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #23513892 - 08/05/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
A google search, https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=vertical%20near%20death%20experience , turned up no scientific/scholarly entries on Vertical NDE's, this doesn't mean it's impossible but it is far from scientific.






Use google scholar to search instead of regular google.

Here ya go.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=near+death+experiences&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C48&as_sdtp=


--------------------
©️


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Lucis]
    #23514001 - 08/05/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Were you able to find any that actually confirmed that NDE's are real with anything other than anecdotes? I read the top 3 and http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1980-32529-001 states "Prior experiences suggestive of transcendence of death were more common among these Ss than among control populations, but prior experiences suggestive of extrasensory phenomena were less common. Subsequent changes in attitudes were more common than among Ss in other studies who had had psychic experiences. The influence of cultural and psychological factors, sensory deprivation, and reflex adaptive responses to stress explain some but not all of the features of near-death experiences." Basically saying it's probably predisposed beliefs that cause the NDE.

http://jrs.sagepub.com/content/89/2/73.short suggests that "claims of near-death experiences (NDE) range from the popular view that this must be evidence for life after death, to outright rejection of the experiences as, at best, drug induced hallucinations or, at worse, pure invention."

this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470479216.corpsy0589/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= simply just explained what a NDE phenomena is supposed to be like.

then again i only read the abstracts, but it still seems like there is very little(no) science on this subject.


--------------------

:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #23514008 - 08/05/16 07:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't read through any of those, I just wanted to point out google scholar is a better way to get information on most subjects if you're serious about studying something.


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Veridical Near Death Experiences [Re: Lucis]
    #23514031 - 08/05/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks fen, i appreciate the link man.

And i hate to be all dicky and anti-metaphysical, but this is a topic i feel like we probably won't really know until WE know from personal experience. it's too unethical to actually be able to study in detail b/c we'd have to have people linked up to EEGs or something, and then kill them to monitor the results, (completely annihilate the brain), and then bring them back.


--------------------

:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



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