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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Kramer Cakes * 13
    #23510779 - 08/04/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ok everyone throw out your agar plates and trash all your cultures because you're not going to need them anymore!

OK you might not want to throw away all the shit you have been working on if you have a bunch of cultures in your refrigerator, but if you don't and you do have a few half pint jars and a pressure cooker you might want to check this out.

This is not a huge revelation in mushroom growing, and those of you who are already growing mass tubs of bulk substrates might want to skip over this one. There are varying levels of cultivation expertise as with any thing else, those who consider themselves masters need read no further.

However, if you have just run through your first grow with the pf tek and  brf, and had any success at all, and if it left you like it left Kramer, wanting to grow just a little more; you might find this tek an easy way to introduce yourself to grain. Or if perhaps you are a total newb and have never grown before but have read and re-read that faq a few dozen times, this could be a good tek for a confident person to bypass the pf tek with.

The type of grain we will be using is millet.  Kramer likes white millet because it is cheaper, but red will work if that is all that you can get. The easiest place to score millet is at any hardware store that sells loose bird seed for folks that like to mix their own. This recipe calls for roughly 5lbs of millet, so you would want to pick at least that much up to start.

In a pinch you could use any wbs that is mostly millet, but Kramer likes using plain millet best.

So, Kramer has been perfecting this tek over the years and since he has never seen anyone else post a detailed tek on this one, he figured that he would drop a little bit of what he has been doing these past few years since the show was canceled.



This will take you strait to grains, where you want to be, especially if you are trying to grow bulk grows, that are covered in greater detail in many other threads.

Materials Needed:

1.  Pressure Cooker

2.  Wide mouth 1/2 pint jars

3.  Millet(or wbs)

4.  Vermiculite (fine grade is best)

5.  Spore syringe (or liquid culture)

6.  Micropore tape

7. Alcohol pads/ paper towels

8.  Oust or Lysol/ or still air box method can be used

9. A room you can clean up and keep a still air environment for a few  minutes

10. Large mixing bowl or tub and spoon


Optional items that can make your grow a lot easier.  Bucket with pouring lip, sink drain screen.



Step one:  Soak your grain, let it soak for 12-24 hours, pour hot water onto the grain and let it soak, this is where the bucket comes in handy, if not use your mixing bowl or tub.

After the grain has soaked for the duration, drain some of the water off, if your going to be fruiting these as cakes, you will want to leave all of the water with the grain, a good rule of thumb is three parts millet 2 parts water 1 part verm, if you start with this soaking the millet in the water and then adding the verm after the soak, you should be close the the moisture content your going to need to fruit these boys out as cakes. Kramer calls this the 3-2-1 blast off mix, no other ingredients are needed.

Note: if you're using this for spawn you can drain off all the water and then just toss in a little verm to dry up the mix as pictured .

Mix your verm and soaked grain and water together and make sure you have no water pooling in the bottom of the mixing tray, if you do get water pooling just add a little verm and keep mixing. The key to success with this method is the same as with brf, it starts with a well mixed substrate



There are two ways you can go about preparing your cakes, you can use a dry verm layer, just like the pf tek. or you can just fill your jars up and tape the hole with micropore tape after inoculation.

Kramer always just fills his jars all the way full, lightly packing the substrate and then after inoculation tapes the hole over.


Yes, the hole, Kramer likes using one hole in the middle of the lid, he says this is the best chance for success when growing cakes. This works with brf as well, make one hole in the middle of the lid and inoculate the middle of the cake.




Ok, back to making the cakes, when you mix in your say 3 quarts of millet with your 2 quarts of water and they have soaked you then mix in your 1 quart of verm, this should give you a slightly damp to maybe even a little soupy substrate mix, the key to success on this is to dry it up. make sure that after you have mixed everything completely you can then take your mixing spoon and scrape a clear spot in the bottom of the bowl or tub, if you have water pooling there then toss in a little verm and mix well until no water pools out of the sub, now you have perfect moisture content for optimum colonization.


Note: If you have only soaked your grain for a few hours or your grain was soaking at a very low temperature for less than 12 hours when you cook it the grain will finish soaking up all the water and your mix may be too dry, it is very important that you soak the grain for at least 12 hours. Also if your grain has soaked for 24 hours or less and it stinks really bad because it has begun fermenting, its ok, just get it in the cooker and it will be fine if you let the grain soak too long over the 24 hours and it is stinking really bad, you may want to toss it.



Time to load your jars and get them in the pc and bring it up to 15lbs, turn it down so that there is little to no steam escaping and you stay at 15lbs for at least 45 min, but no more than 90 min, turn off pc and allow to cool for 24 hours.

Next take out the oust and spray down the house jump in the shower and wash yourself even if it's not Saturday, then put on some fresh clean cloths and head out to your work area.

Inoculate your cakes with less than 1/4 cc of spore fluid per cake, if possible.  I know sometime you squirt out a little more than you wanted, but that's ok too, the less spore fluid you can use the better. Kramer likes to get 40 jars out of a vendor syringe even tho he used Jerry's cc when he ordered.

Immediately tape over your holes with your micropore tape and place jars somewhere warm to colonize, as long as you can keep your jars at 72F you should have no worries.

Your not all the done yet, if you want results like this your going to want to dunk and roll these cakes just like they were brf.




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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: CosmoKramer] * 1
    #23511093 - 08/04/16 09:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Totally fucking cool that this was your 420th post brother! Thank you for spending it with me! :headbanger:

Yes. I had kind of gotten myself into a situation with a bunch of half pint jars, and really what the fuck are you going to do with the half-pint jars once you move on to bulk? So mother necessity  scores another win!

Btw you can maximize pressure cooker space with these bad boys. You could maybe get more sub in your cooker with bags, but it would be close.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: ComebackKid] * 1
    #23511200 - 08/04/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, there are several factors at play that gives this tek favorable advantage when working from multi-spore.  For one thing it gets the rizo myc colonizing the outside of the cake, not that it wouldn't or couldn't find the outside of the cake anyway, but why not give the rizo the advantage when it comes to the food source right? Like I said it works just as well with a brf substrate, but these cakes are much easier to use for spawn.

Brf is richer, as would any processed flour be over a whole grain. If you noticed I flipped the amounts of grain to verm for this tek. I tried many different ratios, if you're fruiting as cakes the 3-2-1 works best ime.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #23511362 - 08/04/16 11:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Absolutely!

If I know the jars are going to be spawned then all the water gets drained off and then only a handful of verm gets mixed in.

In this scenario the verm serves two very important purposes. First, it regulates the moisture content ensuring every grain gets its fair share of the water that is available. Secondly and just as important IMO(I guessthis is really more than just one point), is that it gives the myc a chance to stretch out a little and have a friendly competition as to who wants to eat but does not leave the substrate like a rock or a piece of concrete or whatever, it leaves you with an easy to crumble substrate with thousands of inoculation  points when spawning to bulk. Idk how many of you have colonized millet all by itself, but that shit will turn into a rock on your ass and you will need a hammer to break it apart.

To answer your other question yes I tried to top fruit them out of the jar several times with several different strains, but I always pussed out and pulled them out of the jar due to side pinning. Now that I'm thinking about it the side pinning is probably due to the fact that natural sunlight is always the light source of choice and it always comes in from the side. I like to have them get hit by direct sunlight in the early am or late pm. Also worth noting is that the biggest problem I have encountered with this method was huge pinsets on cakes that would wind up aborting, most likely because they couldn't draw enough water to sustain themselves.

It is very similar to the rez effect tek. It's also similar to Hawks magic formula mix which is how I got started with seed cakes. I have literally tried damn near every tek(on the main page), as well as damn near every strain from every vendor. This particular method worked very well, so I had an inclination to stick with it.

I'm blown away that you would even consider using this tek with all the mad skills you possess man.
:datass:


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Mycologist217] * 1
    #23512835 - 08/05/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mycologist217 said:
Just for clarification, these are fruited in a SGFC?






The cake at the bottom of the thread was actually fruited in a pmp.

Here is a Kramer Cake fruiting in a sgfc.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #23523219 - 08/08/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

george castanza said:
Quote:

Mycologist217 said:
Just for clarification, these are fruited in a SGFC?





The cake at the bottom of the thread was actually fruited in a pmp.

Here is a Kramer Cake fruiting in a sgfc.





That looks pretty damn good. I find side pins in top fruited half pints or pp5s to not really be a problem. Top case really helps I find  I have had nice results top fruiting and bottom watering brf cakes so I gonna definitely try with this. I'll post the results here.




Sweet!

The dunknroll is crucial for good flushes on cakes.

I always try to get a good half inch to 2cm coating of sterilized verm all over the cakes and the I take whatever is left on the tray i was rolling on and pile it on the top of the cakes. Then after the cake is placed lovingly into the chamber, I soak every cake with a spray bottle, making sure to soak it down with as much water as the verm will hold, but also being careful not to spray any off. I then give them two days to a week before they get sprayed again.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Moabfighter] * 1
    #23539217 - 08/13/16 10:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Moabfighter said:


Average yield for these vs pf cakes?




The most I ever have messured from one cake is just over twenty one dry grams. Sometimes in one flush, sometimes from multiple. The least I have ever measured from a non-contaminated cake was right at fourteen. If memory serves me correctly I believe the cakes themselves weigh in at 258g when birthed and would not take on a drop of water when dunked, so I actually would just dip and roll them.

While I was keeping track of everything I believe I did determine an average yield of just over eighteen grams per.

These stats were all from ms inoculation. I originally used these cakes to test out batches of lc and ms syringes but after fruiting one out I became hooked.

Here is a picture of what the first sign of healthy growth will look like:



Usually you can expect to see this within ten days of inoculation. Sometimes less, but I always wait ten days before I check, handling the jars freshly inoculated never increases your chances of success.

Another thing I like about these cakes is that there is no wondering if the middle of the cake is done.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Moabfighter]
    #23543797 - 08/15/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ComebackKid said:
Quote:

Moabfighter said:
Thanks pasty looking forward to seeing it. Plan to try myself soon. I only have jar lids with 4 holes. Wonder if I could polyfil all the holes and make center holes.


If this is the real deal, I won't need my PF jar lids as this will take the new place of that.




I would just throw non porous tape over the holes or dabs of silicone. Or just get new lids. But I think the benifit of one hole in the center is less contamination worries, considering no verm layer. And also you know for certain that the center will be fully colonized.



This ^

Quote:

Moabfighter said:
I've been having some real pain in the ass issues with PF tek this last go. My sterile procedure hasn't changed, yet I'm getting pink molds, blue, green, black...

I've noticed when I pull the needle out, a good bit of PF mix comes with it. Leading me to believe some BRF is getting mixed in the dry Verm layer, contaminating, and giving me bad jars.

I previously used the tall jars, never had issues. got wide mouths short fat ones, and been having a tough time. Trying to source the problem.




There could be several reasons your mix is sticking to the needle.

Check the needle to see if the tip may be slightly bent, also if you're flaming your needle and then sticking it in the cake whilst it is still hot, your cooking your substrate right on to your needle.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Leftfield420]
    #23568036 - 08/23/16 02:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Leftfield420 said:
Inoculated my cakes this morning.....used less than 6ml to inoculate them, I'm curious to see how long they take to colonize.....will keep updating




That is quite a bit.

What kind of temperature are you incubating at?


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Leftfield420]
    #23595653 - 08/30/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I have never had much luck top fruiting cakes myself, but if that's they way you have had success in the past I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23597285 - 08/31/16 12:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Well I got me 14 Kramer style cakes in pp5 ziplocs nearly done. Gonna consolidate them extra long just in case. Then I am gonna birth, dunk n roll some and top fruit some pod style. This will be my second grow of the year so I is happy. They are looking pretty happy so far. Moisture content of the millet and verm must be bang on. I noticed less burst grains than I usually see with straight millet too.


Using the unmodified lids in PP5 I was able to knock up a few with wedges and shook em around well. Those are proving almost as fast as the LC.




I'm assuming you're using pe. I have never attempted to fruit pe as cakes, so I'm extra interested to see the results.:sherlock:

I always let pe consolidate for about two weeks before I spawn it to bulk.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Leftfield420]
    #23650838 - 09/16/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Leftfield420 said:
I open air fruited these ....the others where spawned to a mini mono...but I think I should've used all of them because it's been almost 2 weeks and I’m starting to see patches of myc pop through the casing....




Open air fruiting!?!! :headbanger:

I've routinely gotten five and even six flushes out of a Kramer cake, so don't toss them until they contaminat, or are done. You can tell when they are done because they won't take on anymore water when you dunk and they get really light. I always give em a 12hr dunk between flushes.

Also if you suspect any contamination you should be very careful when handling the cake because they will literally crumble into thousands of pieces and sometimes even seem to explode when you pick them up. I always handle suspect cakes by taking a plastic grocery bag and using it kind of like a glove, turn it inside out and grab up the cake with the tinfoil or lid or whatever it's sitting on in the chamber so as to contain it if it's a crumbler. When I pick them up I turn the bag over and give them a gentle squeeze, don't squeeze it any harder than you would a nice c cup tittie, just a gentle, firm, loving squeeze. If the cake feels solid it has more shrooms in it, if it is super spongy feeling it's probably spent, if it crumbles up go ahead and tie the bag off and toss it.

Probably should have included this info in the OP.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23651149 - 09/16/16 06:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
The cakes are getting that consolidated look. I decided to fruit 4 rolled in verm in a mono, then top fruit 3 cased with coir verm in a mono.

Also have 6 that were done in taller pp5s. A couple of them were inoculated with agar wedges and given the shakability of these allowed for some speedy colonization.

I did notice they don't knit up quite as tight as brf. Takes on water fast so a long dunk definitely not needed. A little care was needed when handling.

Excited tho, this is only my second cube grow of the year.









I have noticed that packing the substrate will give it a bit more of a densely consolidated mass feeling. However I have also noticed a pretty wide variant among different strains of p.cub as well concerning the solidarity of the mycelium mass. South American/ Mexican strains seem to mostly produce close knitting myc, whereas Asian strains seem to be more hit or miss on the formation of a week/wispy mycelium mass.

Again I would like to emphasize the packing of this substrate in the 1/2 pint widemouth  jar. When I pack the substrate I give it a nice tamp with the spoon, I use a bigger size mixing spoon and put the first scoop in, then the second kind of heaps the substrate over the rim, I give it a pack with the bottom of the spoon to firmly pack it in, and then scrape the excess back into the mixing tub, quick wipe of the outer rim on the top of the jar to clear the outside rim of any substrate and then repeat. I can actually fill about 3 jars per minute perfectly, but I've had a substantial amount of practice. :wink:

A good way to tell if your substrate is too loose is to firmly set your jar down on a hard surface. Be careful because you definitely don't want to slam it down so hard as to break the jar(I'm all about safety) if the substrate packs itself when you sit it down firmly then chances are you could have packed it a little more to hit optimal density. In fact you can really pack these jars as tight as you can get them if you want. Two things I'll caution about that are 1) if water pools in the bottom of the jar after you have packed it down you have packed it too tight and although it will in all likelihood colonize ok, it will be a bitch to get out of the jar. 2) if you pack it super tight and no water pools your mix could be a little on the dry side however the cake will probably colonize fine, but it will be a bitch to get out of the jar. So that's why I use the firmly setting the jar down as a gauge of optimal substrate density.

When I'm using my Kramer cakes for spawn I drain off most of the water and then just toss in a handful of vermiculite to ensure the mix is not too wet to colonize and to also make the mycelium mass easier to crumble. The larger shakeable containers colonize very rapidly and obviously you would not want to pack the substrate in this type of container.

I know you're not using the 1/2pint widemouths but the points you're making apply all the same. I really appreciate the fact you took your time and energy to try this tek and offer feedback. It really helps me complete and explain the details of this tek to a level (hopefully) that future newbies will be able to easily understand and achieve great results their first time out. It seems that there are still a few details that were unintentionally omitted in the OP that could really impact the outcome. I guess the devil is alive and well, and still kicking it in the details. :devil:


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #24325866 - 05/16/17 11:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Well sorry for missing the first and second flushes with these, they did quite well. No blobs and a decent yield for ms PE on a cake like sub. But here is some 4th flush action which is still going fairly strong despite these having been beat up and dunked repeatedly. Gonna do em again with a classic cube and hopefully I have my shit together enough to get the first flush pics.






Sorry it's been so long to reply, but those are some very good looking pe cakes.

I have a batch going now, so I'll try to post some picks as I go.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: ichugwindex]
    #24327698 - 05/17/17 04:14 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Or perhaps maybe cut back a little on the windex, I hear the colored varieties can be extremely potent.

Seriously tho, a lot of folks have trouble with millet and this formula makes millet very easy to work with.

I've got some three year old multi-spore syringes I'm putting to the test, wish me luck!

:vaped:


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: hamloaf]
    #24337976 - 05/21/17 12:18 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ComebackKid said:
:mushroom2:




Very nice fruits sir.



Quote:

Hamington Loafburg said:
Quote:

Leftfield420 said:
Would this work with cyans?



Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Yes. Might want to top fruit and case with peat but it would indeed work.



Perhaps.  You know what would greatly help in the dept. of Panaeolus cult. with these cakes?  Replacing up to half of the seed with horse manure.  Instead of a 3-2-1.  Would be more like a 1.5+1.5-2-1 (manure/seed/water/vermiculite) type of deal.  Doesn't roll off the tongue as well, but...  With the manure addition, you would probably have to reconfigure, and adjust to obtain proper moisture content.  I think casing with peat, and top fruiting are good suggestions.

I am going to give this a try.  Been wanting to do some cakes lately, anyway, and this tek is a nice break from the monotony of standard-average BRF cakes.  I will probably supplement these cakes a little bit with some wheat bran, gypsum, and maybe some spent coffee grounds (if I can source them), and use WBS instead of millet. 

I have a few Panaeolus varieties about to go to LC that would be good for the testing of these cakes with the supplementation of manure.  I also have a nice APE clone culture from NumeroEno that's almost ready to noc some LC that I think would be fun to feature on these cakes, as well.  Tell Kramer that he has a pretty cool take on cakes, george.  Thanks for posting.




Kramer and I have probably fruited out 18-20 different cubes with this sub, couldn't get pf classic(Ms) to fruit and even tried a couple times, that was the only one that failed. All others seemed to love it.

When using these cakes for batch testing I recommend that you make your mix a little on the dry side and use a full cc of inoculant, you can try to make them drier and use more innoculant for faster colonization, but that always seems to leave the top of the cake too dry to colonize.

These are great for batch testing and they also make great spawn.


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: eatyualive]
    #24496406 - 07/20/17 01:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, so I was using three year old syringes for this last attempt and it looked like all the spores had clumped up in the tip of the cap on the syringe of tc I used, I used the syringe anyway because I really love working with tc, but alas not one jar colonized :frown:

It's all good tho because I was looking through my myco supplies the other day and I have a few tc prints so I'll make some syringes at some point and get some tc working eventually.

I also did a few jars of pe and they colonized just fine, I took ten Kramer Cakes of pe and spawned them out onto 5 quarts of horse manure and verm, mixed at about 60% verm 40% manure.

This is what it looks like today:



I was going to harvest today but there was so much growth on all the secondary pins (the more regular looking mushrooms and the dark round balls) that I figured I would give it another day or two in order to let them mature a little more, not to mention the bigger blobs are also still growing. :crazy2:

When I first birthed this bulk tray I was a little worried that it would contaminate because the color seemed a little grey to me, and as it was pinning I kept thinking that it looked like trich setting in, but every time it turned out to be a blueing of the substrate or mushrooms themselves.

This is my first attempt in quite a long while and I'm not at all ashamed to admit I'm quite pleased with the results thus far.
:awedance:


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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: hamloaf]
    #24503290 - 07/23/17 04:31 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Here are a few more pictures taken today, just before harvest.









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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: hamloaf]
    #24518493 - 07/30/17 04:09 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

And almost exactly one week later the second flush is harvested.

Here is a picture of the second flush, I was pleased to see almost no mutation on these bad boys.




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Re: Kramer Cakes [Re: eatyualive]
    #24522956 - 08/01/17 03:01 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Nice caps, sexy peen :rockon:



Quote:

eatyualive said:
Nice fruit George! :thumbup:




Thanks guys. The approval of my peers does mean a lot to me.

After the second flush was harvested I waited about twenty hours or so for the mycilium to heal itself and then poured a half gallon of water on to substrate as I noticed it was drying a bit towards the end of the flush. About eighteen hours later I poured the water off back into the half gallon container and noticed the substrate took on just under a quart, so it was dry indeed.

Duringthe first flush I misted a lot, but never a lot all at once, my intention was to replace the moisture at the same rate it was leaving the sub.

There were already three pins on the second flush when I harvested the first, and the day after harvest there was a virtual explosion of pins on the substrate.

If you note the way the sub was pulling away from the sides of the tray, it was in perfect proportion from either side, this indicated to me the substrate is fully healthy and could go on to fruit many more flushes.

I'll keep everyone updated on the third flush, which I'm hoping to see some pins in the next few days.


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KRAMER CAKES




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