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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23503934 - 08/02/16 11:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think many desires are due to attachment.


I see something on Amazon I'm interested in.

I think about it. I get excited. I feel tension. I want it.

I feel more tension. I want to get rid of the tension and anxiety.

I purchase the item. I wait anxiously for it to come in the mail.

The package arrives. I feel a sense of relief. (And emptiness) 

I open the package. I put it on a shelf. I try to forget about it.

I often have buyers remorse and wish I hadn't bought it.

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InvisiblePaulyAnna
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Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23504412 - 08/03/16 04:05 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I think many desires are due to attachment.


I see something on Amazon I'm interested in.

I think about it. I get excited. I feel tension. I want it.

I feel more tension. I want to get rid of the tension and anxiety.

I purchase the item. I wait anxiously for it to come in the mail.

The package arrives. I feel a sense of relief. (And emptiness) 

I open the package. I put it on a shelf. I try to forget about it.

I often have buyers remorse and wish I hadn't bought it.




Do you think desire without attachment is a healthy balance?

You used the pronoun "I" 17x in your reply. So, with this example and observation, would you affirm that desire arose from self?


--------------------
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: Desire [Re: PaulyAnna]
    #23504473 - 08/03/16 05:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'

Here is also a good example of how the profit-head fiends exploit a natural desire, eg for sugar:

There are receptors in the brain that light up when we have sweet things. I am not reducing human behaviour to chemicals, but just relaying one important facet of our being.
When therefore we eat fruit it is symbiotic with feeling good, and eating fruits which have natural sugars are healthy for animals and humans and insects etc

So what the pushers of man-made sugar saturated products do is exploit this natural healthy desire by substituting THEIR product for the natural fruits. This is why many children now--who are the main targets of these fiends--crave sugar-saturated, and even chocolate-covered cereals, and crappy sugary drinks, and sweets--full of the worst kind of sugars and sweeteners, and other chemicals which will rot their teeth, cause obesity, and other disease, and most of all induce sugar addiction!

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InvisiblePaulyAnna
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Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23504481 - 08/03/16 05:21 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like a dopamine rush.


--------------------
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Desire [Re: PaulyAnna]
    #23504644 - 08/03/16 07:33 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not saying desire is "bad" or we should get rid of it.

(to want to get rid of desire would be an oxymoron, right?)

I'm just commenting about the nature of desire related to attachment.

It's like when an addict "jones" for a fix of their favorite chemical or activity.
We falsely believe the object of desire fuels the addicts behavior, but it's actually
the attachment to desire that causes an addict to go against their better judgment.

Same with obsessive love. Sometimes people stalk someone or go the murder/suicide
route when they can not have what they desire. When an obsessed person kills themselves
over the loss of a lover, they are killing their strong attachment to desire because they
know of no other way to deal with it, so suicide seems a logical way to end it.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23505035 - 08/03/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
....

I'm just commenting about the nature of desire related to attachment.
...
We falsely believe the object of desire fuels the addicts behavior, but it's actually
the attachment to desire that causes an addict to go against their better judgment.
...




a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.

But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.

It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.

These facts may be some aspects of the Buddhist view, which perhaps is partly taking it all with a grain of salt. Detachment is just a fancy word for finding it all amusing, isn't it?

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23505093 - 08/03/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I think there is a lot of wisdom in not taking things too seriously.  It's liberating in a lot of ways.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23505111 - 08/03/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'






I believe your use of a stereo typed, sound byte view, of 'Buddhism' has been corrected before. But apparently having a 'straw man' argument serves your purpose. Then again I suppose it is a common misunderstanding or cliche, so anyone lacking real curiosity is prone to this error. But, in case anyone might want a more objective view they might consider that:

Many Vipassana teachers for example aren't into the jhanas,  (deep meditative states), and don't teach them, because they fear they will create attachment to bliss in their students, as opposed to the more important goals of equanimity, morality/compassion, & insight.

The Zen literature is also full of references debunking your simplistic distortion. As well as the Buddhist sutras themselves. The jhanas apparently are considered by some teachers to be useful 'stepping stones' on the long path to learning meditation and understanding mental functioning and perception. But the point is always made that they are 'stepping stones' and not the goal. So yes, Buddhism, as originally taught, acknowledged the human potential for experiencing long lasting blissful states without any external triggers (such as sex or drugs), and saw some benefit in exploring them and learning from them, but very explicitly indicated that they were not the main point of the whole enterprise.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23505199 - 08/03/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

‘Buddhism’ isn’t necessary to have some insight into the comedy of desire. The opening of one of the most famous classic books: “Tom Sawyer”;  I believe opens with the chapter, with the story of painting the fence, which is all about this.
Mark Twain and all satirists for that matter, have plenty of detachment, it’s not some evil plot to subvert ‘self esteem’.

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Invisiblemt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
    #23505223 - 08/03/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.

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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
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Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23505687 - 08/03/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'






I believe your use of a stereo typed, sound byte view, of 'Buddhism' has been corrected before. But apparently having a 'straw man' argument serves your purpose. Then again I suppose it is a common misunderstanding or cliche, so anyone lacking real curiosity is prone to this error. But, in case anyone might want a more objective view they might consider that:

Many Vipassana teachers for example aren't into the jhanas,  (deep meditative states), and don't teach them, because they fear they will create attachment to bliss in their students, as opposed to the more important goals of equanimity, morality/compassion, & insight.

The Zen literature is also full of references debunking your simplistic distortion. As well as the Buddhist sutras themselves. The jhanas apparently are considered by some teachers to be useful 'stepping stones' on the long path to learning meditation and understanding mental functioning and perception. But the point is always made that they are 'stepping stones' and not the goal. So yes, Buddhism, as originally taught, acknowledged the human potential for experiencing long lasting blissful states without any external triggers (such as sex or drugs), and saw some benefit in exploring them and learning from them, but very explicitly indicated that they were not the main point of the whole enterprise.




oh, so right. your trying to argue that the reason people put up with the discipline is not for a 'final goal' of 'everlasting bliss'? :smirk:

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Desire [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23505694 - 08/03/16 01:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.




the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them :cool:

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23506011 - 08/03/16 02:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

And yet most professional historians believe, in light of circumstantial evidence, that both did in fact exist in some fashion.


sources regarding the historicity of Christ:

http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/belief/what-do-the-leading-secular-historians-say-about-jesus/'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/36-reasons-why-scholars-know-jesus-really-existed/

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Desire [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23506132 - 08/03/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

from my experience in this life, I am never impressed with the 'most' vote. usually it takes a maverick to see through an oppressive blind conformist stance. Though there is more than one maverick who don't buy the Jesus myth, and from different levels too

start at 11:30:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23507602 - 08/03/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:

oh, so right. your trying to argue that the reason people put up with the discipline is not for a 'final goal' of 'everlasting bliss'? :smirk:




I am not trying to argue. I pointed out some facts anyone can verify who has the least curiosity. I suspect you are intelligent, but are simply uninformed on this subject. To think that a sharp or sarcastic sort of point on an internet forum, will convince someone you are right, and thus save you the trouble of seeing if I've got my facts right, because perhaps you can look good or seem to win, is actually to sell yourself short.

In any case the whole business is of course paradoxical. As  Roshis themselves say, "The self that wants to be enlightened is the self that will be destroyed by enlightenment." And: "there are no bathrooms in heaven". etc etc ... The students would have to be pretty dumb to take your view, in the face of such constant reminders. Of course you are right that the human tendency is always to hope one can have one's cake and eat it too.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23509531 - 08/04/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.

But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.

It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.




Great post! There is so much substance there I could go on and on.

I notice, for example, often the excitement that attachment to desire creates when
anticipating a vacation disappears or is greatly reduced when one is ON vacation
(we complain about long lines at the airport)

I think the rush of excitement that desire can bring can reduce or totally cloud our awareness,
as we are hooked on the excitement of desire (the object or event is secondary).

Children are super excited about Christmas for weeks, and then are quickly bored after opening gifts.

The excitement of desire is a really interesting topic. Like when we're on our way to
score drugs, we're so jacked up and loaded it's unbelievable. Even before the chemical hits the brain.

Yeah, when we are angry, the LAST thing we want is to get a massage!

When we're angry we often seek people who will help to fuel our anger.

When we're angry we avoid people who would tell us we are over-reacting.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Desire [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #23509541 - 08/04/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

mt cleverest said:
Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.




the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them :cool:




You've missed the point. The concepts connected to these characters are simply human ideas.

If Pythagoras didn't actually exist, would that make the equation meaningless?

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23509904 - 08/04/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

mt cleverest said:
Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.




the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them :cool:




You've missed the point. The concepts connected to these characters are simply human ideas.

If Pythagoras didn't actually exist, would that make the equation meaningless?




maybe you can workout for yourself if the equation works whereas can the same be said for 'physical resurrection'?

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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23510156 - 08/04/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nirvana is wholeness. Wholeness is achieved through simply stopping the pretense that you aren't whole. You are one with what your body-mind is doing and the environment is doing it also, they are all the same thing, they are not "happening to you." So just pay attention, that's about the gist of it.

It's not difficult and if it is there are other issues, like brain disorders, dysfunctions, physical injuries, physical health issues ... lifestyle problems ie. non-appealing hobbies and psychological problems ie. habit of dreaming and not paying attention.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Desire [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23511651 - 08/05/16 04:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

what do you mean by 'brain disorder'?

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