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InvisibleChemical Addiction
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Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners?
    #23504744 - 08/03/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Not sure where to put this, I was just wondering If I used lead lined drywall to build a grow room for cannabis would it be shielded from whatever police use to spot an indoor grow?


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Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything.
—Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea

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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #23504759 - 08/03/16 08:38 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Lead would only work for some kind of wave based detection(infared). But If they use heat detection, a metal like lead would conduct the heat rather than insulating it.

Edited by The Mycologist (08/03/16 09:44 AM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: The Mycologist]
    #23504842 - 08/03/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nope.

Think about it: if you want to stop thermal scanning, you need an insulator. Lead is not an insulator. The best possible insulator would be a vacuum sheath, which is basically like a double-wall with a vacuum between the walls.

Lead is great for stopping radiation, especially ionizing radiation. Cops normally use thermal imaging when scanning for grows, because the lights put out a bunch of heat, and if the cops used x-rays, they'd be actively killing people. Or at least turning them into the xmen, except all the powers are cancer.

You could also try an active cooling system, where you basically build a giant condenser inside the walls of the room, with the idea being to run cold water through all the pipes constantly so that they literally wash away the heat. This would have to cover pretty much all of the surface area of the room, so you don't end up with an odd heat signature that looks like light shining through slats in an old-timey plank doorway.

Edited by Kryptos (08/03/16 09:16 AM)

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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Kryptos]
    #23504906 - 08/03/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Makes sense, I didn't consider they used thermal detection. I definitely did not think that they used xrays, I was just saying if they used some kind of wave based detection technique then lead would deflect those rays. But damn growing green is some risky work. I did not know they were rolling through our neighborhoods looking for hot spots :shocked: . The fungus seems to be a much less risky drug growing venture.


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"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
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InvisibleChemical Addiction
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Kryptos]
    #23504910 - 08/03/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I just watched a few youtube videos and they say the cops look for hot spots such as one part of the house that is hot or heat being vented from the house. I think I will buy another inline fan and some flexible ducting and try and disperse the heat evenly in my house. I'm already using an LED which is nowhere near as hot as an HPS


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Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything.
—Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #23505608 - 08/03/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It's technically illegal for cops to just scan neighborhoods with thermal imaging as they drive/fly by, and they're supposed to have some sort of lead to be able to deploy the technology. Most departments just don't care and bust out the high tech fishing poles anyway. There was a video I saw some time ago where some guys set up a massive hydroponic operation in Texas and started growing Christmas trees with hidden cameras, and then recorded the cops breaking down the door after illegally scanning the neighborhood with IR detectors and deciding it was a grow op.

Chemical, I don't think adding ventilation to spread the heat signature around will do much to save you. If I was doing IR surveillance, and I saw a house that was generating 3x as much heat as everyone else on the block, I would be immediately suspicious even if it wasn't localized to an inner room. I'd be thinking either grow op, crazy cat lady, or someone from the Quiverfull movement, and the second two are very easy to check.

Of course, I'd also check power consumption because I'm thorough like that, but cops will likely ride out with SWAT first and ask questions later. Drug manufacturers/dealers are treated like terrorists. Plus, what cop wouldn't jump on the flimsiest of excuses to drive their urban tank? Many already have power complexes. Based on my observation of people that drive F-150s and muscle cars, there are few things that are more "manly" than needlessly loud and heavy vehicles that get as little miles to the gallon as possible while spewing black smoke (and a gun rack). A SWAT APC covers every single one of those categories: heavy, armor, low MPG, loud, guns, and in almost every case stupidly excessive.

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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #23508027 - 08/04/16 12:16 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

A flir camera won't even see through glass, let alone lead. I actually own a military grade flir camera, so i know what they can and cannot do. I use mine mostly for troubleshooting computer mother boards. It's modified with a cheap CO2 laser cutter lens used to make it a "macro" thermal imager that can see the SMD parts clearly. You cannot use glass optics to see heat, it needs exotic materials such as germanium or zinc selenide. Anyway...

READ: IT CANNOT X-RAY YOUR HOUSE AND SEE YOUR PLANTS. IT CAN ONLY SEE THE VENTED HEAT FROM YOUR GROW ROOM.

The airborne and vehicle mounted units normally view for only a few seconds at the pass, the operator has to zoom in to see more details. It's just like using any other pro grade camera. What you want is NO attention during that first pass. You need to diffuse the heat and make it go through normal channels such as ducting it through the AC heat exchanger in summer, dryer vent, or chimney in winter. Operator just sees a normal hot spot- moves on. Nothing to see here.

The biggest concern is to get rid of the smell and stagger your electrical loading. A couple KW of grow lights isn't a problem, but several kilowatts is. To get rid of the tell tale 12/12 load, have a device that dithers the time by a few minutes up or down each day such as using thermal relays to switch on the lights on and off in a staggered fashion. Also the digital ballasts, especially the craptastic Chinese ones cause a lot of EMI that is detectable for hundreds of feet. They could cause the cable company concern which could lead to a bust. To remedy- ground the ballast box well with a thick physical ground to the cold water pipe and spend the extra cash to get a quality ballast.

The smell is the biggest concern. It has no easy solutions. One is to use a decent strength ozone machine to burn the smelly molecules up and the other is to use activated charcoal to filter it out. Again dilution and diffusion is the answer to this.

Best advice ever: Keep your mouth shut when growing, and IF you're a dealer, put the brakes on dealing until you COMPLETELY FINISH your grow. Good luck and stay safe.


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"Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Eywa_devotee]
    #23508263 - 08/04/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

tin foil hat :v


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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #23512922 - 08/05/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Chemical,

A) does your growroom share an outside wall of the house, or is it in the attic where the heat can get to the underside of the roof?

B) how much power are you pulling for lights? is it less than, more than, or equal to 1 kW?

C) how are you getting rid of the hot air in the grow room? are you venting it into the house, or routing it somewhere with extra ducting?

I can formulate a more helpful response if I know a little more about what you are working with.

Peace,
agmotes165


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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InvisibleChemical Addiction
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #23513605 - 08/05/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

A) its a room I built within a bedroom and at the moment its just venting into the room, but I have a portable A/C I plan on using once I bring more power to the room, and it pushes out hot air, it came with a set up that goes in the window but I think I will vent it to the house. Also there is an attic above the bedroom that is not heated/cooled.

B) At the moment i'm using less than 1000watts between my 400W LED, 4 X  T8 two bulb four foot light, and two T5's same size as T8's. I plan on replacing two of the flouros with another LED down the road but I have other projects lined up first be fore I spend that kind of money.

I think I answered C) in A), but at the moment i'm venting inside the bedroom, once I add the A/C i'll need to vent it somewhere else because it puts off a lot of heat.


I seem to recall you saying you've grown almost exclusively in apartments, I guess I should asked you first over on the growery :shrug:


--------------------
Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything.
—Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #23519681 - 08/07/16 05:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, so if you've built your "room-within-room" so that your inner room does not share a wall with the outer room (ie in the center of the outer room), then you should be fine as long as the outer room temperature stays below about 85 deg. F. I grew in an apartment using the same method

When I was growing in an apartment, I made sure there were no back draft dampers in the HVAC ducting, and just fed the carbon-filtered hot air into a vent in the room (and turned off the HVAC, to avoid damaging the fan). It worked well, and kept my heating bill low during the winter, which helped to offset the power used by my lighting.

As an alternative, you could exhaust the air near a return register for the HVAC, and just keep the HVAC fan on at all times. This will evenly distribute the heat when the AC isn't on, and will remove the heat through a normal route of heat rejection (the heat pump outside), and therefore won't look suspicious to any FLIR cameras. This will also bypass the need to check for backdraft dampers and the risk of hurting your HVAC fan.

For the attic, if there is only insulation on the floor of the attic, and no insulation directly under the actual roof, then I would not recommend venting into the attic, especially in the winter. Even if you do have insulation directly beneath the roofing, I would only recommend venting into the attic during the summer, as it will cause a plume of hot air to form around the attic vents, which will shine like a torch against a cold winter background in a FLIR image.

Honestly, if you aren't going over 2000W, then I would recommend either high airflow exchange (with a properly sized carbon filter) with the rest of the house interior space (ideally by exhausting near the HVAC return and running the HVAC fan constantly to distribute/remove the heat). If you really want to run a portable AC unit in the room (which could be beneficial if you want to keep the humidity as low as possible and maybe try to coax out some color toward the end of flowering), then I would again recommend the same tactic with handling the exhaust. If you start to run into problems with overloading the apartment HVAC ( the place stays hot all the time), then I would try to tee into the dryer exhaust duct or a chimney (chimney only in the winter), such that the plume of hot air is coming from a vent that one would expect large volumes of hit gasses to be coming from.

Feel free to ask questions, as I may have missed something. I'm currently on my phone, so a long writeup is a little difficult to do :omgawesome:


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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InvisibleChemical Addiction
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #23519725 - 08/07/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

thanks, the attic has no isolation on the ceiling, its this stuff they just blow in there, its like 18-24 inches deep. The vast majority of my energy is used by my Air conditioning units, in the summer my electric bill is 300-400, and in the winter only 150-250. The thermostat is upstairs and so is the flowering room, which makes the A/C turn on frequently and the downstairs is usually 5-10 degrees colder than up. But i'm not about to cut a hole in the floor to exhaust to the lower level.

I'll just exhaust out of the bedroom, I just need to find a quiet way to do so, maybe by exhausting into a box with a bunch of holes and a light duty fabric around the box to slow the air but still exhaust it. Not sure on that.


--------------------
Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything.
—Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #23519870 - 08/07/16 06:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quiet exhaust method seems legit. You might have better effects by filling the "exhaust box" (built as you described) with random towels/scraps of cloth as well. This is (roughly) how gun silencers work.

As a question to agmotes, I mentioned this earlier at one point, but wouldn't you have either high power readings due to cooling, or have a suspiciously hot house on a FLIR using the room-in-a-room method? It seems to be useful to delocalize heat throughout the house, which is much less suspicious than a hotspot, but wouldn't the house still be hotter than the rest of the neighborhood?

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Does lead stop thermal imaging/ infared scanners? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #23519921 - 08/07/16 06:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

A lot of the noise comes from the turbulence of the air interacting with the flexible ducting, and then the more obvious source, the fan itself.

Wrapping your ducting and in line fan in an insulating material (or buying insulated flex duct) is a great way to lower noise output, and reduces your airflow needs (the exhaust ducting transfers heat from the exhaust into the room, and cool air ducting absorbs heat from the outer room prior to entering the inner grow room, thus reducing efficiency). Putting a carbon filter at the end of the exhaust duct is also a really easy way to drop the noise level a little bit. There are also DIY duct muffler designs that sends the airflow into a box or cylinder that redirects the airflow through a serpentine path, and directs the sound into "traps" lined with foam or some other sound absorbing material. These can be incredibly effective at reducing noise.

I actually ended up building my inner room with panels of foam insulation, with the reflective side facing in towards the plants. It really helped to insulated from outside heat (my ballasts and whatnot were in the outer room) as well as noise.


Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quiet exhaust method seems legit. You might have better effects by filling the "exhaust box" (built as you described) with random towels/scraps of cloth as well. This is (roughly) how gun silencers work.

As a question to agmotes, I mentioned this earlier at one point, but wouldn't you have either high power readings due to cooling, or have a suspiciously hot house on a FLIR using the room-in-a-room method? It seems to be useful to delocalize heat throughout the house, which is much less suspicious than a hotspot, but wouldn't the house still be hotter than the rest of the neighborhood?




It would, but if you can effectively use the AC to keep the indoor temperatures within the human comfort zone, then the house will exhibit typical residential heat transfer, and would be impossible to tell the difference between your house, and someones house who just likes the thermostat set a little higher than the next guy. The key is to have the outer surfaces of the house within a range of normal variation, which fortunately is a pretty wide range given the different buidling materials, insulation ratings, thermostat settings, and emmissivity valus of paint, glass, asphalt, etc.

The Mrs. is demanding a massage, feel free to ask any questions you want, and I'll get back to you guys shortly :jennajameson:


--------------------
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