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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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TPP * 1
    #23500658 - 08/02/16 04:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Here is a video if you do not know about the TPP:


Now, I have to give the credit where it is due. Trump is semi-right with this and has the right overall idea despite China not even being a part of the deal (even though China is the main country he talks about). The trade agreement is really to halt China's hold on the U.S. On top of that, he is a hypocrite because he has outsourced many of his own jobs. Trump finally gets one right for once, kind of. More than Hillary, that's for sure.



Hillary and Obama on the other hand support this. Obama is outright pushing for it. Hillary, on the other hand, said she doesn't support the TPP after Bernie said he was against it (hardly believable she is against it after pushing it for so long).

I understand this trade agreement has been in the works for a while and may not even be news to many people. But, Obama recently just said that he believes the deal will go through by the end of the year and wants to continue to push it. Finally, the first video mainly focuses on the small points in comparison to the big one- outsourced jobs.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23501045 - 08/02/16 08:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What's funny is republicans have been blamed for years of being the party of "the rich" and "Wall Street" thankfully I think this election cycle people are finally waking up to the fact that while pubs aren't completely inoocent, it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class with all their globalist agenda programs that benefit only the rich


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23501983 - 08/02/16 01:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
What's funny is republicans have been blamed for years of being the party of "the rich" and "Wall Street" thankfully I think this election cycle people are finally waking up to the fact that while pubs aren't completely inoocent, it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class with all their globalist agenda programs that benefit only the rich




Here we go again. It is all about how the democrats are so evil or vice versa. Guess what? The republican party is extremely corrupt as well. Both parties are a joke.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23502066 - 08/02/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23502241 - 08/02/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
What's funny is republicans have been blamed for years of being the party of "the rich" and "Wall Street" thankfully I think this election cycle people are finally waking up to the fact that while pubs aren't completely inoocent, it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class with all their globalist agenda programs that benefit only the rich




Here we go again. It is all about how the democrats are so evil or vice versa. Guess what? The republican party is extremely corrupt as well. Both parties are a joke.




What's funny is if you actually read my post you would see where I pointed out in no way were pubs innocent In this bullshit screwing over of the middle class, only a partisan could miss it

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:whathesaid:




Second example right here


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23502327 - 08/02/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
if you actually read my post you would see where I pointed out in no way were pubs innocent In this bullshit screwing over of the middle class, only a partisan could miss it



I reread your post, and you said this:

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class with all their globalist agenda programs that benefit only the rich



:shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23502429 - 08/02/16 04:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

And you left out "pubs aren't innocent"

You realize the lies you tell are easily refutable? I guess not...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23502445 - 08/02/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So why did you say "it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class" if you meant it's both the democrats and the republicans?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23502451 - 08/02/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So why did you say "it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class" if you meant it's both the democrats and the republicans?




Becuase clinton signed nafta and Obumble wants TTP

Along with a myriad of other programs signed and endorsed by democrats, they fuck the middle class Americans over repeatedly, all in the guise of helping "the poor"


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23502720 - 08/02/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So why did you say "it's the democrats who have been fucking over the middle class" if you meant it's both the democrats and the republicans?




Becuase clinton signed nafta and Obumble wants TTP

Along with a myriad of other programs signed and endorsed by democrats, they fuck the middle class Americans over repeatedly, all in the guise of helping "the poor"




I will have to say you are right. It has been the democrats..but you also need to recognize they are CORPORATE democrats. Obama and Clinton are both of these. Democrats like Bernie have long fought the TPP. You also need to recognize the free, unregulated market is a republican idea.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23502808 - 08/02/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Bernie is not a democrat,

And the free market is not a republican idea, it's an American and free people's idea

If you want to be a slave to government, just say so, support Bernie and Hillary. If not, support freedom


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23502836 - 08/02/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Enjoy paying $1000 for your next iphone


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23503038 - 08/02/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
the free market is not a republican idea, it's an American and free people's idea

If you want to be a slave to government, just say so, support Bernie and Hillary. If not, support freedom



Wait, are you for or against TPP???  Your statements are very confusing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23503155 - 08/02/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Bernie is not a democrat,

And the free market is not a republican idea, it's an American and free people's idea

If you want to be a slave to government, just say so, support Bernie and Hillary. If not, support freedom




Bernie isn't a democrat? Oh that's right! He is a part of the Tea Party. :lol:

And you missed one word out of what I said and that is UNREGULATED. An unregulated free market is a republican ideology.

And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.


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Edited by big_scrappy97 (08/02/16 07:48 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23503402 - 08/02/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:toast:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23503536 - 08/02/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:toast:




:leocheers:


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23503999 - 08/02/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Bernie is not a democrat,

And the free market is not a republican idea, it's an American and free people's idea

If you want to be a slave to government, just say so, support Bernie and Hillary. If not, support freedom




Bernie isn't a democrat? Oh that's right! He is a part of the Tea Party. :lol:

And you missed one word out of what I said and that is UNREGULATED. An unregulated free market is a republican ideology.

And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.




And wich candidate is bought and paid for by Wall Street?:popcorn:


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97] * 1
    #23504101 - 08/02/16 11:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.




Is that so? Tell me, what corporations have you in bondage. You know you can like, not be a consumer of their products, right? Nobody is forcing you...

Capitalism is consensual sex, socialism is rape.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg]
    #23504257 - 08/03/16 01:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.




Is that so? Tell me, what corporations have you in bondage. You know you can like, not be a consumer of their products, right? Nobody is forcing you...

Capitalism is consensual sex, socialism is rape.




:thatsaten:


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg] * 1
    #23504258 - 08/03/16 01:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Bernie is not a democrat,

And the free market is not a republican idea, it's an American and free people's idea

If you want to be a slave to government, just say so, support Bernie and Hillary. If not, support freedom




Bernie isn't a democrat? Oh that's right! He is a part of the Tea Party. :lol:

And you missed one word out of what I said and that is UNREGULATED. An unregulated free market is a republican ideology.

And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.




And wich candidate is bought and paid for by Wall Street?:popcorn:




I have told you this in a different post and I will tell you once again. Hillary is about as corrupt as they come..which means she will not get my vote come fall.

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
And be a slave to the government? We are slaves to corporations right now.




Is that so? Tell me, what corporations have you in bondage. You know you can like, not be a consumer of their products, right? Nobody is forcing you...

Capitalism is consensual sex, socialism is rape.




6 corporations control 90% of the media. This influences the majority of people who mindlessly watch the news and believe everything they say.

Corporations basically control the president, congress, and I would even go as far as to say the judicial branch. For the president, it can easily be seen with the push of the TPP. The TPP would really only positively impact corporations. No president in his right mind would push so hard for something with such big risks at stake. You can also see the amount of corruption from candidates like Hillary who is bought off by big business. Congress has billions circulating through it yearly by corporate lobbyists. The judicial branch decided money is a form of free speech in the Citizens United case.

Need I say more?


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OfflineMaroon
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97] * 1
    #23504817 - 08/03/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Funny everyone complaining about shrinking wages but still trying to pass global trade deals that directly drive down American and western  wages


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UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23507654 - 08/03/16 10:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

6 corporations control 90% of the media. This influences the majority of people who mindlessly watch the news and believe everything they say.






No shit, because Americans in large don't trust the government to provide them with truthful unbiased, nonpartisan information. So as a result, they're not a significant part of that industry.

Do you like Netflix? Do you like watching the Super Bowl? What about big movie blockbusters? Private media corporations made that possible. Dunno about you, but I like big budget entertainment like Game of Thrones and wouldn't want all media I watch to be of indie level production.

Quote:

The TPP would really only positively impact corporations. No president in his right mind would push so hard for something with such big risks at stake.




I don't think you have much experience in the business world. You don't have to be a large corporation to take advantage of free trade opportunities. I personally work for a company of 7 employees and the idea of having a broader market to sell our goods in would be GREAT for us. It also allows for lower manufacturing prices which are impossible here because of ludicrous business taxes. I'm personally not in favor of paying $1000 for my next 'made in USA' iPhone.

Now when it comes to jobs, if these domestic business taxes and import tariffs weren't so bad, it would make more economical and logistical sense for companies to manufacture goods RIGHT HERE. More jobs for Americans. The only thing that needs to take place in unison with this is a significant reduction in government spending across the board.


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Edited by schwarg (08/03/16 10:54 PM)


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg] * 1
    #23508167 - 08/04/16 02:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:

No shit, because Americans in large don't trust the government to provide them with truthful unbiased, nonpartisan information. So as a result, they're not a significant part of that industry.






But news networks are already biased? Fox leans right and NBC leans left. Fox and NBC have had several instances where they have been untruthful or have delivered partisan information. I think you are mistaking what I am saying. I am not saying to have the government control the news, I am simply stating facts. 6 companies controlling the majority of what we watch, read, and listen to is an issue.

Quote:

schwarg said:

Do you like Netflix? Do you like watching the Super Bowl? What about big movie blockbusters? Private media corporations made that possible. Dunno about you, but I like big budget entertainment like Game of Thrones and wouldn't want all media I watch to be of indie level production.






Oh the good ol' appeal to emotion. Quite frankly, no, I don't like watching Netflix, big movie blockbusters, TV series, or even listening to mainstream artists. I do, however, do like watching the Super Bowl. But, people could still watch and view it back in the '80s when 90% of the media was controlled by 50 corporations rather than 6. It goes the same with movies. For people who do enjoy watching them, there were many good '80s movies despite there being 50 corporations. There is no correlation between less corporations controlling the media=better entertainment.





Quote:

schwarg said:

I don't think you have much experience in the business world. You don't have to be a large corporation to take advantage of free trade opportunities. I personally work for a company of 7 employees and the idea of having a broader market to sell our goods in would be GREAT for us. It also allows for lower manufacturing prices which are impossible here because of ludicrous business taxes. I'm personally not in favor of paying $1000 for my next 'made in USA' iPhone.

Now when it comes to jobs, if these domestic business taxes and import tariffs weren't so bad, it would make more economical and logistical sense for companies to manufacture goods RIGHT HERE. More jobs for Americans. The only thing that needs to take place in unison with this is a significant reduction in government spending across the board.




Once again, I think you are mistaking what I am saying. I believe in a free market that is regulated. I do understand the cost of having American-made vs. outsourced. It is much more cost efficient. However, where the issue lies is in the treatment of workers in those countries, one country easily suing another, and the import:export ratio in the U.S. For treatment of workers,a Vietnamese worker gets less than a dollar on average of work and that is just starters. For the suing, any country that is a part of the TPP can sue the U.S. if the U.S. hurts their business with regulations. For the import:export ratio, importing would go up and exporting would go down. You just said yourself that importing is cheaper than having products made in the U.S. The countries a part of the TPP would not import products as they would be more expensive and the U.S. would import more because of the same reason...which leads to a larger trade deficit on top of U.S. jobs being lost.


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OfflineMaroon
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23508607 - 08/04/16 07:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We know international trade deals directly hurt the 99% so why are we still allowing them to even suggest passing more of the wage shrinking laws


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: Maroon] * 1
    #23509764 - 08/04/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:

6 corporations control 90% of the media. This influences the majority of people who mindlessly watch the news and believe everything they say.






No shit, because Americans in large don't trust the government to provide them with truthful unbiased, nonpartisan information. So as a result, they're not a significant part of that industry.

Do you like Netflix? Do you like watching the Super Bowl? What about big movie blockbusters? Private media corporations made that possible. Dunno about you, but I like big budget entertainment like Game of Thrones and wouldn't want all media I watch to be of indie level production.

Quote:

The TPP would really only positively impact corporations. No president in his right mind would push so hard for something with such big risks at stake.




I don't think you have much experience in the business world. You don't have to be a large corporation to take advantage of free trade opportunities. I personally work for a company of 7 employees and the idea of having a broader market to sell our goods in would be GREAT for us. It also allows for lower manufacturing prices which are impossible here because of ludicrous business taxes. I'm personally not in favor of paying $1000 for my next 'made in USA' iPhone.

Now when it comes to jobs, if these domestic business taxes and import tariffs weren't so bad, it would make more economical and logistical sense for companies to manufacture goods RIGHT HERE. More jobs for Americans. The only thing that needs to take place in unison with this is a significant reduction in government spending across the board.




"if these domestic taxes and import taxes weren't so bad, it would make more economical and logistical sense for companies to manufacture good right here"

Total nonsense, many states gave companies the world when it came to tax breaks and they still leave, it only makes sense they would rather pay $1 per hour instead of $18 per hour in the US, that's the reason why they leave, it's NOT taxes.

We don't practice "free trade", when other countries fix their currencies and they are not allowed to trade in the open market, we can't have "free trade".  The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.


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Re: TPP [Re: Maroon] * 1
    #23509771 - 08/04/16 02:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
We know international trade deals directly hurt the 99% so why are we still allowing them to even suggest passing more of the wage shrinking laws




Many people don't understand how "free trade" works, it gets complicated for sure, but yes it does hurt 99% of US citizens.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23509778 - 08/04/16 02:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.




You're definitely right about that.


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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23509798 - 08/04/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

qman said:
The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.




You're definitely right about that.




I know you don't like Trump, but he's been the only one with the ability to call China and others currency manipulators, R's and D's don't have that luxury, they would be dropped by their sponsors in a matter of hours.

These are NOT "free markets" at work, correcting this manipulation would cost the super rich trillions in profits, they don't want to see Trump even talking about it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23509892 - 08/04/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I know you don't like Trump, but he's been the only one with the ability to call China and others currency manipulators, R's and D's don't have that luxury, they would be dropped by their sponsors in a matter of hours.



There's a lot of things I like about Trump.  He gets TPP, he gets international relations far better than he's given credit for (the DNC smeared him to cover up their own wrongdoings against Bernie, which has practically disappeared from the radar).  He seems to get economics.

What bothers me about Trump is his flip-flopping; I don't know where he truly stands on many issues (Hillary has the same problem).  Hillary kills Trump on social issues (Trump is going for the religious vote).  And Trump wants tax breaks for the super rich, which means bigger deficits.

At this point, I'm all in for Jill Stein.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23510063 - 08/04/16 04:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

There's a lot of things I like about Trump.  He gets TPP, he gets international relations far better than he's given credit for (the DNC smeared him to cover up their own wrongdoings against Bernie, which has practically disappeared from the radar).  He seems to get economics.

What bothers me about Trump is his flip-flopping; I don't know where he truly stands on many issues (Hillary has the same problem).  Hillary kills Trump on social issues (Trump is going for the religious vote).  And Trump wants tax breaks for the super rich, which means bigger deficits.

At this point, I'm all in for Jill Stein.




I completely agree with you. But, as of now, I am voting for Trump. I think Hillary would be worse. Have you seen the new Wikileaks on one of her donors? She took money from Lafarge who has put money into Isis for profit. That is SCARY.

There is no way Jill Stein will be able to win unless she is allowed to debate. If she is, I will be all in for her as well.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23510197 - 08/04/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
There is no way Jill Stein will be able to win unless she is allowed to debate. If she is, I will be all in for her as well.



It's funny how many people now say they would support Jill Stein if she had a chance.  Bill Maher is even against her only because he doesn't think she has a chance.

If all the people that supported her just say they'd take her over Hillary, I think she'd be doing really well.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23511104 - 08/04/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:

qman said:
The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.




You're definitely right about that.




But are we prepared as consumers to pay for the astronomically higher costs that will come as a result of the American standard of wages? You can't simply compensate for it by raising minimum wages. How would it not cause runaway inflation?


--------------------


Edited by schwarg (08/04/16 09:47 PM)


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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg] * 1
    #23511229 - 08/04/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:


Quote:

qman said:
The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.




You're definitely right about that.




But are we prepared as consumers to pay for the astronomically higher costs that will come as a result of the American standard of wages? You can't simply compensate for it by raising minimum wages. How would it not cause runaway inflation?




Both are correct. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Let me ask you this though. How are people supposed to pay for these products if there aren't any jobs?


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23511243 - 08/04/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
There is no way Jill Stein will be able to win unless she is allowed to debate. If she is, I will be all in for her as well.



It's funny how many people now say they would support Jill Stein if she had a chance.  Bill Maher is even against her only because he doesn't think she has a chance.

If all the people that supported her just say they'd take her over Hillary, I think she'd be doing really well.  :shrug:




It is because people are thinking realistically. Stein doesn't have a chance if she doesn't debate. No debate equals no media coverage which equals less people knowing about her which equals less votes. It is the same vice versa. If she is allowed to debate, I would happily vote for her rather than sadly putting my vote in for Trump.


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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg]
    #23511528 - 08/05/16 01:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
But are we prepared as consumers to pay for the astronomically higher costs that will come as a result of the American standard of wages? You can't simply compensate for it by raising minimum wages. How would it not cause runaway inflation?



Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23511838 - 08/05/16 07:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.




Interesting read.  :strokebeard:
I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage. That might be messed up for me to say. But I feel like someone that is comfortable working a minimum wage job should struggle. I worked at McD's for 2 years in high school and that is when I first started this thought process. My GM worked there for all of her life (she was in her 50s), 4 out of the 6 managers were in their 30s, and most of the day staff were in their 30s. Even the warehouse job I have now starts at $12/hour and the youngest guy besides myself is 28. Even they are stuck in the mindset of staying in warehouse jobs. If college were tuition-free then it would be inexcusable to have a minimum wage job. At that point, it would be sheer laziness not to have a decent paying job. Minimum wage jobs are designed for high school students who want a little extra spending money or pay a few bills (like a car, car insurance, gas and/or a phone).


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Re: TPP [Re: schwarg] * 1
    #23512045 - 08/05/16 08:51 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:


Quote:

qman said:
The fix is in and the US is in on it, they want cheap labor.




You're definitely right about that.




But are we prepared as consumers to pay for the astronomically higher costs that will come as a result of the American standard of wages? You can't simply compensate for it by raising minimum wages. How would it not cause runaway inflation?




You do realize that companies would have to have the ability to pass on the higher costs, they might just have to absorb the higher costs and experience lower profit margins.

Apple has super high profit margins, that's not a god given right, maybe they have to live in a world with less profitability.

What happened decades ago when US workers manufactured their own goods?  Did we have "runaway inflation"?  No, we had healthy inflation with rising wages, did companies have a super high profit margins like today?  NO.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23512065 - 08/05/16 08:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.




Interesting read.  :strokebeard:
I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage. That might be messed up for me to say. But I feel like someone that is comfortable working a minimum wage job should struggle. I worked at McD's for 2 years in high school and that is when I first started this thought process. My GM worked there for all of her life (she was in her 50s), 4 out of the 6 managers were in their 30s, and most of the day staff were in their 30s. Even the warehouse job I have now starts at $12/hour and the youngest guy besides myself is 28. Even they are stuck in the mindset of staying in warehouse jobs. If college were tuition-free then it would be inexcusable to have a minimum wage job. At that point, it would be sheer laziness not to have a decent paying job. Minimum wage jobs are designed for high school students who want a little extra spending money or pay a few bills (like a car, car insurance, gas and/or a phone).




Minimum wage jobs don't have a design, they just are the result of a surplus pool of labor.  If an employer needs workers and they can't find any at minimum wage, they will offer a higher wage. If an employer has a huge pile of resumes for 2 positions, they can low ball them with just a minimum wage.

Why do you think wages have remained stagnant for so many years?  Employers pay the lowest the can, a naturally tight labor market forces them to pay higher, we don't have that today.


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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23512120 - 08/05/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.




Interesting read.  :strokebeard:
I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage. That might be messed up for me to say. But I feel like someone that is comfortable working a minimum wage job should struggle. I worked at McD's for 2 years in high school and that is when I first started this thought process. My GM worked there for all of her life (she was in her 50s), 4 out of the 6 managers were in their 30s, and most of the day staff were in their 30s. Even the warehouse job I have now starts at $12/hour and the youngest guy besides myself is 28. Even they are stuck in the mindset of staying in warehouse jobs. If college were tuition-free then it would be inexcusable to have a minimum wage job. At that point, it would be sheer laziness not to have a decent paying job. Minimum wage jobs are designed for high school students who want a little extra spending money or pay a few bills (like a car, car insurance, gas and/or a phone).




Minimum wage jobs don't have a design, they just are the result of a surplus pool of labor.  If an employer needs workers and they can't find any at minimum wage, they will offer a higher wage. If an employer has a huge pile of resumes for 2 positions, they can low ball them with just a minimum wage.

Why do you think wages have remained stagnant for so many years?  Employers pay the lowest the can, a naturally tight labor market forces them to pay higher, we don't have that today.




It definitely isn't the same as it used to be. McD's and the job I am at now don't have piles of resumes coming in. Actually, both places I have worked are understaffed and I have yet to see an increase in wages in both places, obviously for higher profit margins. Fast food isn't a career and shouldn't be paid as so. When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23512141 - 08/05/16 09:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.




Interesting read.  :strokebeard:
I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage. That might be messed up for me to say. But I feel like someone that is comfortable working a minimum wage job should struggle. I worked at McD's for 2 years in high school and that is when I first started this thought process. My GM worked there for all of her life (she was in her 50s), 4 out of the 6 managers were in their 30s, and most of the day staff were in their 30s. Even the warehouse job I have now starts at $12/hour and the youngest guy besides myself is 28. Even they are stuck in the mindset of staying in warehouse jobs. If college were tuition-free then it would be inexcusable to have a minimum wage job. At that point, it would be sheer laziness not to have a decent paying job. Minimum wage jobs are designed for high school students who want a little extra spending money or pay a few bills (like a car, car insurance, gas and/or a phone).




Minimum wage jobs don't have a design, they just are the result of a surplus pool of labor.  If an employer needs workers and they can't find any at minimum wage, they will offer a higher wage. If an employer has a huge pile of resumes for 2 positions, they can low ball them with just a minimum wage.

Why do you think wages have remained stagnant for so many years?  Employers pay the lowest the can, a naturally tight labor market forces them to pay higher, we don't have that today.




It definitely isn't the same as it used to be. McD's and the job I am at now don't have piles of resumes coming in. Actually, both places I have worked are understaffed and I have yet to see an increase in wages in both places, obviously for higher profit margins. Fast food isn't a career and shouldn't be paid as so. When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.




Yes, grocery stores pass on the costs since they are just a retailer.  Restaurants can attempt to hike prices, it the consumers can't afford it, that's a sign of a weak economy.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23513263 - 08/05/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher.  It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.

So it's not a one to one increase.  I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.




Interesting read.  :strokebeard:
I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage.



I too believe that people need to work for a living wage.  If someone isn't worth the minimum wage after a minimum wage increase, they should be fired (yes, I said that).

But the fact is that the vast majority of workers today are paid FAR below what they're worth to their company.  Empirical evidence shows that minimum wage increases do not have a long term negative impact to unemployment; in fact it may even be good for employment because more people would have more money to spend.


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23513298 - 08/05/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.



And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%."
So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23513473 - 08/05/16 04:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.



And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%."
So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.




Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of  the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument. We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right. I will also, then, be in support of more than doubling the minimum wage like the $15/hour wage activists are trying to push.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23513743 - 08/05/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%."
So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.



Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of  the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.



Could you post those please?  I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right.



Why wait two years?  Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23514882 - 08/06/16 01:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%."
So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.



Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of  the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.



Could you post those please?  I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right.



Why wait two years?  Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?





http://minimum-wage.procon.org/
Here. This will show you how this issue has many opposing viewpoints. Each pro and con has reputable sites behind each statement. As I said, we will only know the consequences if we put it into place. If you know anything about economics, then you should know about inflation, job loss, and a cutback of people being hired on.

Also, I just realized your study does not line up with a $15 minimum wage. Setting a minimum wage to $15/hour would increase it over 100%, not 10%. The study strictly targets a 10% increase. If we raised the minimum wage slowly over the course of 10 years 10% at a time, then yes, it might work. But, raising it over 100% all at once is bound to fail the economy. I still stand by what I say and that is if someone works at fast food for the rest of their lives, they deserve to struggle. You obviously have no idea of the amount of people who are comfortable working a sorry ass job like that for the rest of their lives. It is good for students and that is about it. Cleaning, flipping burgers, or simply pushing buttons at a cash register at a grocery store are not skills and shouldn't be paid as them. Living the American dream is a byproduct of hard work while working smart and isn't a right.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23515624 - 08/06/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%."
So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.



Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of  the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.



Could you post those please?  I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.



http://minimum-wage.procon.org/
Here. This will show you how this issue has many opposing viewpoints. Each pro and con has reputable sites behind each statement.



Con #4 from you link discusses price increases.  According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%".  That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above.  A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why wait two years?  Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?



As I said, we will only know the consequences if we put it into place.



We've already implemented it in some cities, so we already know the consequences.  Why ignore that?

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Also, I just realized your study does not line up with a $15 minimum wage. Setting a minimum wage to $15/hour would increase it over 100%, not 10%. The study strictly targets a 10% increase. If we raised the minimum wage slowly over the course of 10 years 10% at a time, then yes, it might work. But, raising it over 100% all at once is bound to fail the economy.



Did you just made that up?  How do you know that?  The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
I still stand by what I say and that is if someone works at fast food for the rest of their lives, they deserve to struggle. Living the American dream is a byproduct of hard work while working smart and isn't a right.



And I can't argue with that because that's your opinion.  My opinion is that anyone who works full time doesn't "deserve to struggle", and they should have a right for a living wage.  Until you actually produce evidence that this would hurt the economy, I'm sticking with this opinion.


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23516314 - 08/06/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Con #4 from you link discusses price increases.  According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%".  That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above.  A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.






You are literally nitpicking at one fact out of all the cons. You are ignoring all the other facts- job loss, companies closing down, teenagers no longer being able to work, higher drop-out rates, outsourcing, automation, etc.


Quote:


The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.






Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Fransisco have a higher cost of living so this is a horrible example. Their wages are already higher.

In this article https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-03-29/san-francisco-can-afford-a-15-minimum-wage-mariposa-cannot it says this:
At what point do the harms start to outweigh the benefits? So far it's hard to say; the cities that have tried big increases haven’t completed the transition, so we don’t have much data. But even when we get that data, it's probably not a good idea to extrapolate from the experience of a handful of high-wage cities. Their professional class can afford to pay higher prices for goods and services with relatively little pain. The effect of a $15-an-hour minimum wage is apt to be very different in San Francisco (average weekly wage roughly $1,700) than it is in Mariposa County (average weekly wage $640).

This will directly hurt small towns.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23516357 - 08/06/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

At the end of the day, if we do increase it to $15/hour we need to be smart about it. Doubling the minimum wage all at once is not a good idea for small towns and businesses. Corporations like Wal-Mart could easily bounce back. Starting a business is already hard enough but add on a doubling minimum wage and that just adds onto its expenses. We should have it at $15/hour (and possibly higher at that time depending on cost of living) in 5-10 years with slowly increasing it so the economy can balance itself out.

I just don't find it fair that my mom and a few other family members make $21-$$28/hour after years of college while working full time while raising children to make that close of a wage to someone who is simply flipping burgers. :2cents:


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23516419 - 08/06/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Con #4 from you link discusses price increases.  According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%".  That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above.  A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.



You are literally nitpicking at one fact out of all the cons.



I asked for a link showing price increases resulting from a minimum wage increase, and you provided a link showing they would be even LESS than what I had posted.  That's not "nitpicking", that's me staying on topic.  :shrug:

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
You are ignoring all the other facts- job loss, companies closing down, teenagers no longer being able to work, higher drop-out rates, outsourcing, automation, etc.



No, I'm not ignoring those; we simply weren't talking about those.  If you want to discuss those, let's do it!  Let's start with your first point - job losses.

I already posted a link with many articles showing minimum wage increases do not have a long term negative impact to unemployment.  The methodology used is empirical evidence.  Your pros/cons link provided evidence from a CBO study which states that if you raise the minimum wage by 40%, total employment falls by 0.3% but 25% of the population would get a very comfortable pay increase.

That 25% can then help grow the economy with increased spending after which the 0.3% would get rehired.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.




Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Fransisco have a higher cost of living so this is a horrible example. Their wages are already higher.

In this article https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-03-29/san-francisco-can-afford-a-15-minimum-wage-mariposa-cannot it says this:
At what point do the harms start to outweigh the benefits? So far it's hard to say; the cities that have tried big increases haven’t completed the transition, so we don’t have much data. But even when we get that data, it's probably not a good idea to extrapolate from the experience of a handful of high-wage cities. Their professional class can afford to pay higher prices for goods and services with relatively little pain. The effect of a $15-an-hour minimum wage is apt to be very different in San Francisco (average weekly wage roughly $1,700) than it is in Mariposa County (average weekly wage $640).

This will directly hurt small towns.



This goes right back to our original argument.  Price increases don't go up nearly as much as the minimum wage increase, so it's the poor people that come out ahead.  :shrug:


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23519850 - 08/07/16 06:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This goes right back to our original argument.  Price increases don't go up nearly as much as the minimum wage increase, so it's the poor people that come out ahead.  :shrug:




You know what? Doing more research, it really would benefit the economy and several economists would agree. I am just skeptical about the laziness and comfortability of staying in a minimum wage job. Also, should we still have things like SNAP and Section 8 if everyone who worked would be above the poverty line? It seems like programs after that point would directly support the lazy people who don't want to work.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23520250 - 08/07/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
You know what? Doing more research, it really would benefit the economy.... I am just skeptical about the laziness and comfortability of staying in a minimum wage job.



I hear you.  If someone isn't worth the new minimum wage, they should be fired (and they will be becasue businessess are not charity organizations).  But based on past empirical evidence, the amount of job losses will be minimal, and only short term.

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Also, should we still have things like SNAP and Section 8 if everyone who worked would be above the poverty line? It seems like programs after that point would directly support the lazy people who don't want to work.



I agree with you again!  Once full time employees make a living wage, there should be no reason to provide welfare benefits, including to able bodied citizens unwilling to work.  Maybe short term unemployment, but that's it.  That would save the taxpayers a lot of money.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23521767 - 08/08/16 11:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I hear you.  If someone isn't worth the new minimum wage, they should be fired (and they will be becasue businessess are not charity organizations).  But based on past empirical evidence, the amount of job losses will be minimal, and only short term.




The only thing is there are businesses that are hurting for people and already have a high turnover rate. Some people won't be worth the new wage. I suppose that is really the company's issue at that point. Studies also actually show that, in the long term, this could very well create jobs.

Quote:


I agree with you again!  Once full time employees make a living wage, there should be no reason to provide welfare benefits, including to able bodied citizens unwilling to work.  Maybe short term unemployment, but that's it.  That would save the taxpayers a lot of money.




I completely agree! I just still have an issue with someone that flips burgers for a living to make nearly that close of a salary as someone who went and busted their ass to get a specialized job. It kind of goes against the American way of reaping the benefits of working hard.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23521807 - 08/08/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

A naturally strong labor market SHOULD move the wages higher of skilled workers, that should have nothing to do with minimum wage laws, unless that minimum wage mandate is completely out of sorts with the true supply and demand dynamics of the labor market.

What does someone who makes 80k per year care about some workers making $12 per hour instead of $9 per hour?  They don't.

There are limits to how high the minimum wage can go without it causing employment and small business harm, if it were only so simple to go to India, Mexico, Vietnam, and other countries and just setup a higher minimum wage law to solve all of the economic problems, it doesn't work that way.

The minimum wage law should reflect the economic strength of that country, and the supply and demand of that labor market.

Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history?  Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!


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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23521938 - 08/08/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history?  Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!



You keep bringing up that argument and you keep losing that argument.  But since there are a lot of new posters here in the political forum, why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse.  :popcorn:


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23521947 - 08/08/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
I just still have an issue with someone that flips burgers for a living to make nearly that close of a salary as someone who went and busted their ass to get a specialized job. It kind of goes against the American way of reaping the benefits of working hard.



If the wages of people flipping burgers goes up, it will force the wages of skilled workers up as well.  Otherwise, skilled workers would just leave their skilled job for an unskilled job at the same wage.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23522049 - 08/08/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history?  Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!



You keep bringing up that argument and you keep losing that argument.  But since there are a lot of new posters here in the political forum, why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse.  :popcorn:




"provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse"

Is having tens of millions of illegals entering the US labor markets good for the fundamentals for US workers?  No, more supply drives wages lower.

Does exporting tens of millions of US jobs to other countries help the wages and employment for US workers? No, that drives wages lower.

What have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL WAGES of US workers?  Real wages are DOWN.

What are the average GDP growth rates in the US?  Down from previous time frames.


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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23522084 - 08/08/16 02:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse.  :popcorn:



Is having tens of millions of illegals entering the US labor markets good for the fundamentals for US workers?  No, more supply drives wages lower.



More domestic demand for products and services is good for US workers.  The net effect of more workers is a wash.  That's why unemployment doesn't go up with increasing population.

Quote:

qman said:
Does exporting tens of millions of US jobs to other countries help the wages and employment for US workers? No, that drives wages lower.



I agree.  And all candidates now claim they are against TPP.

Quote:

qman said:
What have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL WAGES of US workers?  Real wages are DOWN.



I agree.  And what have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL MINIMUM WAGES of US workers?  Real minimum wages are DOWN.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23522559 - 08/08/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

By the way, here are some economic indicators:

Corporate profits are at an all time high:


Unemployment is way down:


And yet all this excess profit only goes to the 1%:


and so inequality is at an all time high:



The money is there.  We just need to get it to the middle and lower class.  A higher minimum wage is a great start, and as shown above this won't have any serious negative impacts (unless it's raised to a crazy amount).


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23522834 - 08/08/16 07:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact


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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23522876 - 08/08/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact



40% of Americans today now make LESS than the real 1968 minimum wage.  We can solve that problem instantly with a minimum wage increase.

What about tax cuts for the rich?  Or corporate welfare?  Or anti union sentiment?  Or Free Trade agreements?  Do those not contribute to inequality?


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23522955 - 08/08/16 07:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

How does raising taxes on the rich increase my wages?

(Seems like a familiar topic...)


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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23523355 - 08/08/16 09:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact




That's a fact, huh? The funny thing is there are more illegals moving back than moving in. Your favorite news site even says so.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/20/more-mexicans-leaving-us-than-entering-study-says.html

It sounds like someone is listening to Trump's rhetoric a little too much.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23523394 - 08/08/16 09:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

140,000 out of an estimated 12 million illegals, that only proves how saturated our job markets are. When people who work for $1/hr can't find work, your economy may be doomed. Thanks Obama


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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23523465 - 08/08/16 10:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

But you said "flooding" not "flooded" as in they are coming here right now. It is clear you meant "-ing" in present tense. Also, illegals coming in has been an issue before even Obama. Why do you think we have had border patrol for so long? How are you going to spin the issue and put it on Obama?


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23523524 - 08/08/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I see you don't know sarcasm, the fact is illegal immigration has been an issue since Reagan, he foolishly signed an amnesty law then thinking dems would uphold their end of the bargain, and secure the border. It's a mess and neither political party has the will to do shit about it, that's why Trump is so popular, hated by both sides, he's the only honest guy out there

The depression in wages coincides with the influx of cheap labor



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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23523608 - 08/08/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
140,000 out of an estimated 12 million illegals, that only proves how saturated our job markets are. When people who work for $1/hr can't find work, your economy may be doomed. Thanks Obama



Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I see you don't know sarcasm, the fact is illegal immigration has been an issue since Reagan, he foolishly signed an amnesty law then thinking dems would uphold their end of the bargain, and secure the border. It's a mess and neither political party has the will to do shit about it, that's why Trump is so popular, hated by both sides, he's the only honest guy out there

The depression in wages coincides with the influx of cheap labor






We haven't been joking this entire time so I assumed you were serious.

The low wages also coincides with the wealth distribution, the rates of how much CEOs make, and the amount of profit the company/corporation makes.







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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23523635 - 08/08/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly, that proves my point, as cheap labor moves in, more goes to the top, if you don't have a competitive labor market, there is no need to meet a demand in labor with higher wages. People are forced to work for less


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23523674 - 08/08/16 11:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good charts!  :thumbup:


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23523717 - 08/08/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Exactly, that proves my point, as cheap labor moves in, more goes to the top, if you don't have a competitive labor market, there is no need to meet a demand in labor with higher wages. People are forced to work for less




So you're telling me 12 million people out of the 320 million people we have living here are the ones who are responsible for the income inequality? :lol: Also, we kind of need those immigrants for the jobs U.S. citizens won't do. All illegal and legal immigrants I know are doing labor, labor, and more labor. They aren't filling the industries everyone is trying to get into.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Good charts!  :thumbup:



Thanks! :thumbup:


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23523777 - 08/09/16 12:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,

As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...

Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down, :thumbup:


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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23523796 - 08/09/16 12:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,

As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...

Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down, :thumbup:




Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.

12 million out of 320 million is not an abundance.


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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97] * 1
    #23524114 - 08/09/16 06:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,

As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...

Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down, :thumbup:




Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.

12 million out of 320 million is not an abundance.




It's not 12 million out of 320 million, we don't know how many illegals are working and want to work, but we do know how many US citizens want to work or are working and it isn't 320 million.

When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate. As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before? 

And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that?  Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.

When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.


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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23524438 - 08/09/16 09:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.




Wow, for one thing, I'm not sure where you live but construction jobs are highly desirable by any guy who didn't go to college and work at a desk. Around here, them jobs fill up quick! And as for the oilfield, if you have a job there right now, you're still making damn good money. You're a fool if you think they don't.

As for people who served time, are you now saying criminals shouldn't have good jobs? Should they always be forced into crime? Becuase that's what your comment is implying


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23525262 - 08/09/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate.



I'll debate that point nonetheless.  Wages can't be driven below minimum wage no matter how many workers enter a labor market.  And as long as unemployment doesn't go up (which empirical evidence shows would not happen with a nominal minimum wage increase), then we don't have to worry about a few extra workers.  I've shown you the unemployment charts.  The unemployment rate is good right now, no matter how you look at it:



Quote:

qman said:
As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before?



African slaves.  :shrug:

Quote:

qman said:
And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that?  Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.



Seriously?  Do you really think that Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's???  :facepalm:

Quote:

qman said:
When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.



Empirical evidence proves you wrong.  In fact, educated people are the only ones whose real incomes have been going up.



--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23525405 - 08/09/16 04:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate.



I'll debate that point nonetheless.  Wages can't be driven below minimum wage no matter how many workers enter a labor market.  And as long as unemployment doesn't go up (which empirical evidence shows would not happen with a nominal minimum wage increase), then we don't have to worry about a few extra workers.  I've shown you the unemployment charts.  The unemployment rate is good right now, no matter how you look at it:



Quote:

qman said:
As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before?



African slaves.  :shrug:

Quote:

qman said:
And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that?  Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.



Seriously?  Do you really think that Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's???  :facepalm:

Quote:

qman said:
When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.



Empirical evidence proves you wrong.  In fact, educated people are the only ones whose real incomes have been going up.






"Wages can't be driven below minimum wage"

Yet, millions of illegals do work below that wage.

"we don't have to worry about a few extra workers"

I agree, we have to worry about the potential ten million extra workers.

"African slaves"

Oh really, my grandmother worked as a maid for many years for a high level retired military man, she was paid very well during those Great Depression years, many people today would kill for a job that paid that well today.

"Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's?"

I don't know, but my Polish relatives who arrived in the 1910's did get paid very well for their labor (mills) relative to today, it enabled them to buy homes and farm land in a matter of 2-3 years, nobody could do that today.

Your chart makes my argument, surplus amounts of low skilled labor has also driven down medium skilled wages as well, thanks for proving my point.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23525599 - 08/09/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wages can't be driven below minimum wage



Yet, millions of illegals do work below that wage.



So?  Are you saying illegals are driving their own wages down?  Or that you think illegals should be paid more?

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
we don't have to worry about a few extra workers



I agree, we have to worry about the potential ten million extra workers.



Only if the unemployment rate is too high, which it's not.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
African slaves



Oh really, my grandmother worked as a maid for many years for a high level retired military man, she was paid very well during those Great Depression years, many people today would kill for a job that paid that well today.



Do you know what her salary was?  An internet search shows the average maid was paid less than minimum wage of that time.  Also, are you arguing that there was less immigration back then?  There was plenty:

http://cis.org/articles/2006/back106.html


Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's?



I don't know, but my Polish relatives who arrived in the 1910's did get paid very well for their labor (mills) relative to today, it enabled them to buy homes and farm land in a matter of 2-3 years, nobody could do that today.



Yes, people could do that today if they don't live a high cost city.  The average price for a four-bedroom, two bathroom home in Cleveland is $64,993.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:




Your chart makes my argument, surplus amounts of low skilled labor has also driven down medium skilled wages as well, thanks for proving my point.



The chart doesn't show what caused wages to drop; you keep pretending it's a surplus of workers, although you have never been able to show evidence to back you up.  It simply shows labor for educated workers is going up, disproving your point.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23525610 - 08/09/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

He completely ignores that millions of illegals work below minimum wage:facepalm:

What brilliant debate skills


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Invisiblebig_scrappy97
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23526844 - 08/10/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Wow, for one thing, I'm not sure where you live but construction jobs are highly desirable by any guy who didn't go to college and work at a desk. Around here, them jobs fill up quick! And as for the oilfield, if you have a job there right now, you're still making damn good money. You're a fool if you think they don't.

As for people who served time, are you now saying criminals shouldn't have good jobs? Should they always be forced into crime? Becuase that's what your comment is implying




Well where I live no one wants to work labor jobs. Getting a desk job isn't that hard and you don't need years of college to get one. It may mean less pay than someone that has a degree. I live where there are a lot of oilfields. The ones who work there are on edge of whether they will have a job within the next week or two. They are constantly laying people off due to the price of oil. It is the last industry anyone is trying to get into right now.

And no, I am not saying that. I am just saying no one wants to work around a bunch of criminals. I have worked at a warehouse for about 8 months and have worked with tons of people who have served jail time. Every single one of them acts like 14 year olds with a chip on their shoulders. Keep in mind many of them are approaching their 40's.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: big_scrappy97]
    #23527526 - 08/10/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like you live in a very lazy part of the country if no one wants labor jobs, I'd much rather be out in the field than sitting at a desk, and yes, not being lazy is a big part of that.

So tell me, what kind of desk job can you get without college? At entry level? Telemarketing is about the only one I can think of offhand, I genuinely am curious about these good paying desk jobs with no college and no experience


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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23527607 - 08/10/16 08:51 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Fal, if employment is really back to normal, yet my ask you a few questions.

1. If we have "full employment" like you claim, why is GDP growth barely at 1%?  That doesn't even make sense, historically the GDP growth rate should be 3% or higher with strong employment rates, we are NOT seeing it.

2. If we are back to "normal employment" levels, why have interest rates stayed at 0% for the past 8 years?  It doesn't make sense, "normal employment" levels should have rates at least in the 3-6% range.  Today the Fed can't even hike rates .25 basis points, why is that?

3. "Full employment" should have higher wage pressure, this isn't happening today, wages are stagnant. Every other time period when full employment was occurring, wages went higher!  Why was my father getting 8-12% ANNUAL wage hikes at the corporation he was working at in the 1970's?  It wasn't because they were just nicer. :lol:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23527692 - 08/10/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Very good points. :thumbup:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23528732 - 08/10/16 04:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Fal, if employment is really back to normal, yet my ask you a few questions.

1. If we have "full employment" like you claim, why is GDP growth barely at 1%?  That doesn't even make sense, historically the GDP growth rate should be 3% or higher with strong employment rates, we are NOT seeing it.



Easy question.  It's because population growth has slowed.  The following graph shows how the GDP growth rate per capita has actually remained relatively constant, while the population growth rate is going way down:



Quote:

qman said:
2. If we are back to "normal employment" levels, why have interest rates stayed at 0% for the past 8 years?  It doesn't make sense, "normal employment" levels should have rates at least in the 3-6% range.  Today the Fed can't even hike rates .25 basis points, why is that?



That's another easy question, it's because interest rates aren't tied to unemployment. They are set to keep inflation stable.  If inflation starts to rise, interest rates will go up accordingly to keep inflation in check.

Quote:

qman said:
3. "Full employment" should have higher wage pressure, this isn't happening today, wages are stagnant. Every other time period when full employment was occurring, wages went higher!  Why was my father getting 8-12% ANNUAL wage hikes at the corporation he was working at in the 1970's?  It wasn't because they were just nicer. :lol:



Historical evidence shows that minimum wages and strong labor unions are more closely tied to wages than unemployment.  I keep asking for an example showing how unemployment is tied to wages, but it's never provided, and I've providing evidence showing the correlation between union membership and wage equality, but it's always ignored.  Here it is again:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23528902 - 08/10/16 05:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Population growth is only one POTENTIAL factor in slower economic growth, with that being said one could find many reasons today of how a growing population could cause negative economic growth. How's the surging population growth been working for Africa lately?  Last I saw they were risking their lives in boats fleeing to the EU.

"interest rates aren't tied to employment"

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"The Phillips curve... remains the key to relating unemployment to inflation in mainstream macroeconomic analysis"

"showing how unemployment is tied to wages" 

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"Phillips conjectured that the lower employment rate, that the tighter the labor market and, therefore, the faster firms must raise wages to attract scare labor"


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23529221 - 08/10/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

They arent risking their lives.

Theyre economic opportunists. Scum who need to stay on their own continent.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23529275 - 08/10/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Population growth is only one POTENTIAL factor in slower economic growth, with that being said one could find many reasons today of how a growing population could cause negative economic growth. How's the surging population growth been working for Africa lately?  Last I saw they were risking their lives in boats fleeing to the EU.



Yes, there a lot of reasons why the GDP growth rate per capita might slow down.  But all other things being equal, we would expect the GDP per capita growth rate to remain constant, which it is (as the graph above clearly shows).  It is unreasonable to suggest that because it isn't suddenly increasing (I don't know why you think it should) that we have too many illegals.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
interest rates aren't tied to unemployment. They are set to keep inflation stable.  If inflation starts to rise, interest rates will go up accordingly to keep inflation in check.




http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"The Phillips curve... remains the key to relating unemployment to inflation in mainstream macroeconomic analysis"



Inflation is not the same as interest.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I keep asking for an example showing how unemployment is tied to wages, but it's never provided



http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"Phillips conjectured that the lower employment rate, that the tighter the labor market and, therefore, the faster firms must raise wages to attract scare labor"



Do you know what "conjecture" means?

I'm asking for real world evidence.  Here is the REAL relationship between unemployment and wages:



Are they correlated, or inversely correlated?  Clearly, there is no evident correlation between unemployment and wages.  Yes, I know that violates Econ 101 principles.  But this is the real world, not conjecture.


--------------------
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Re: TPP [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23529331 - 08/10/16 07:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
They arent risking their lives.

Theyre economic opportunists. Scum who need to stay on their own continent.




"They aren't risking their lives"

The journey is risking their lives in many instances, how many have died when their boats sunk? Thousands.

"They're economic opportunists"

In most instances this has proven to be true.

"Scum who need to stay on their own continent"

No, just people that need to use LEGAL means to enter countries they aren't citizens of in the first place, or better yet, fix their own homelands.


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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23529361 - 08/10/16 07:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Population growth is only one POTENTIAL factor in slower economic growth, with that being said one could find many reasons today of how a growing population could cause negative economic growth. How's the surging population growth been working for Africa lately?  Last I saw they were risking their lives in boats fleeing to the EU.



Yes, there a lot of reasons why the GDP growth rate per capita might slow down.  But all other things being equal, we would expect the GDP per capita growth rate to remain constant, which it is (as the graph above clearly shows).  It is unreasonable to suggest that because it isn't suddenly increasing (I don't know why you think it should) that we have too many illegals.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
interest rates aren't tied to unemployment. They are set to keep inflation stable.  If inflation starts to rise, interest rates will go up accordingly to keep inflation in check.




http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"The Phillips curve... remains the key to relating unemployment to inflation in mainstream macroeconomic analysis"



Inflation is not the same as interest.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I keep asking for an example showing how unemployment is tied to wages, but it's never provided



http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PhillipsCurve.html

"Phillips conjectured that the lower employment rate, that the tighter the labor market and, therefore, the faster firms must raise wages to attract scare labor"



Do you know what "conjecture" means?

I'm asking for real world evidence.  Here is the REAL relationship between unemployment and wages:



Are they correlated, or inversely correlated?  Clearly, there is no evident correlation between unemployment and wages.  Yes, I know that violates Econ 101 principles.  But this is the real world, not conjecture.




You chart shows a little bit of both, the end of the chart shows what I have been saying from the very beginning, lower unemployment should show wage growth.

The problem with your chart is that it doesn't break down the wages into categories, if the top 20% of wage earners are the only ones seeing wage growth, it can heavily influence that growth rate even if the bottom 80% are still experiencing stagnant wages.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23529577 - 08/10/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The only graphs that matter, the ones Fal so conveniently leaves out, are these



fal does not like facts, this is why he chooses to ignore them


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
    #23529677 - 08/10/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The problem with your chart is that it doesn't break down the wages into categories, if the top 20% of wage earners are the only ones seeing wage growth, it can heavily influence that growth rate even if the bottom 80% are still experiencing stagnant wages.



Wrong, that's why I chose "median" wage data and not "average"; so the top 20% don't skew anything.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: TPP [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23529705 - 08/10/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
The problem with your chart is that it doesn't break down the wages into categories, if the top 20% of wage earners are the only ones seeing wage growth, it can heavily influence that growth rate even if the bottom 80% are still experiencing stagnant wages.



Wrong, that's why I chose "median" wage data and not "average"; so the top 20% don't skew anything.




Yep, my bad.


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