|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
How does raising taxes on the rich increase my wages?
(Seems like a familiar topic...)
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact
That's a fact, huh? The funny thing is there are more illegals moving back than moving in. Your favorite news site even says so. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/20/more-mexicans-leaving-us-than-entering-study-says.html
It sounds like someone is listening to Trump's rhetoric a little too much.
--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
140,000 out of an estimated 12 million illegals, that only proves how saturated our job markets are. When people who work for $1/hr can't find work, your economy may be doomed. Thanks Obama
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
But you said "flooding" not "flooded" as in they are coming here right now. It is clear you meant "-ing" in present tense. Also, illegals coming in has been an issue before even Obama. Why do you think we have had border patrol for so long? How are you going to spin the issue and put it on Obama?
--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
I see you don't know sarcasm, the fact is illegal immigration has been an issue since Reagan, he foolishly signed an amnesty law then thinking dems would uphold their end of the bargain, and secure the border. It's a mess and neither political party has the will to do shit about it, that's why Trump is so popular, hated by both sides, he's the only honest guy out there
The depression in wages coincides with the influx of cheap labor
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: 140,000 out of an estimated 12 million illegals, that only proves how saturated our job markets are. When people who work for $1/hr can't find work, your economy may be doomed. Thanks Obama
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: I see you don't know sarcasm, the fact is illegal immigration has been an issue since Reagan, he foolishly signed an amnesty law then thinking dems would uphold their end of the bargain, and secure the border. It's a mess and neither political party has the will to do shit about it, that's why Trump is so popular, hated by both sides, he's the only honest guy out there
The depression in wages coincides with the influx of cheap labor

We haven't been joking this entire time so I assumed you were serious.
The low wages also coincides with the wealth distribution, the rates of how much CEOs make, and the amount of profit the company/corporation makes.


--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
Exactly, that proves my point, as cheap labor moves in, more goes to the top, if you don't have a competitive labor market, there is no need to meet a demand in labor with higher wages. People are forced to work for less
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
|
Good charts!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Exactly, that proves my point, as cheap labor moves in, more goes to the top, if you don't have a competitive labor market, there is no need to meet a demand in labor with higher wages. People are forced to work for less
So you're telling me 12 million people out of the 320 million people we have living here are the ones who are responsible for the income inequality? Also, we kind of need those immigrants for the jobs U.S. citizens won't do. All illegal and legal immigrants I know are doing labor, labor, and more labor. They aren't filling the industries everyone is trying to get into.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Good charts! 
Thanks!
--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,
As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...
Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down,
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,
As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...
Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down, 
Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.
12 million out of 320 million is not an abundance.
--------------------
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
big_scrappy97 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: If you think an over abundance of cheap labor doesn't drive down wages, you're dillusional,
As for doing the jobs no one else wants, that must be why they do construction, oilfield, and other good paying jobs, right? The idea they are just fruit pickers and hotel maids has been debunked repeatedly...
Yeah nice charts, the ones that prove cheap labor coincided with wages being driven down, 
Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.
12 million out of 320 million is not an abundance.
It's not 12 million out of 320 million, we don't know how many illegals are working and want to work, but we do know how many US citizens want to work or are working and it isn't 320 million.
When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate. As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before?
And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that? Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.
When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
Re: TPP [Re: qman]
#23524438 - 08/09/16 09:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yes because everyone is jumping out of their seats to go into those jobs. For the most part, the only ones doing those jobs besides the immigrants are people who have served jail time. Also, the oilfields are the last place ANYONE wants to be with the way the market is.
Wow, for one thing, I'm not sure where you live but construction jobs are highly desirable by any guy who didn't go to college and work at a desk. Around here, them jobs fill up quick! And as for the oilfield, if you have a job there right now, you're still making damn good money. You're a fool if you think they don't.
As for people who served time, are you now saying criminals shouldn't have good jobs? Should they always be forced into crime? Becuase that's what your comment is implying
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: TPP [Re: qman]
#23525262 - 08/09/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate.
I'll debate that point nonetheless. Wages can't be driven below minimum wage no matter how many workers enter a labor market. And as long as unemployment doesn't go up (which empirical evidence shows would not happen with a nominal minimum wage increase), then we don't have to worry about a few extra workers. I've shown you the unemployment charts. The unemployment rate is good right now, no matter how you look at it:

Quote:
qman said: As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before?
African slaves. 
Quote:
qman said: And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that? Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.
Seriously? Do you really think that Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's??? 
Quote:
qman said: When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.
Empirical evidence proves you wrong. In fact, educated people are the only ones whose real incomes have been going up.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: When you add more workers into a labor market it drives wages lower, that fact isn't up for debate.
I'll debate that point nonetheless. Wages can't be driven below minimum wage no matter how many workers enter a labor market. And as long as unemployment doesn't go up (which empirical evidence shows would not happen with a nominal minimum wage increase), then we don't have to worry about a few extra workers. I've shown you the unemployment charts. The unemployment rate is good right now, no matter how you look at it:

Quote:
qman said: As far as US citizens won't work those jobs, who do you think worked them before?
African slaves. 
Quote:
qman said: And did you know that those low skilled jobs paid decent wages, why is that? Because the labor market was tighter and employers HAD to pay a higher wage.
Seriously? Do you really think that Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's??? 
Quote:
qman said: When low skilled workers flood a labor market it forces people to get more skills and education, as a result it drives wages lower in those labor sectors, it's called a domino effect and it affects everyone in the labor market.
Empirical evidence proves you wrong. In fact, educated people are the only ones whose real incomes have been going up.

"Wages can't be driven below minimum wage"
Yet, millions of illegals do work below that wage.
"we don't have to worry about a few extra workers"
I agree, we have to worry about the potential ten million extra workers.
"African slaves"
Oh really, my grandmother worked as a maid for many years for a high level retired military man, she was paid very well during those Great Depression years, many people today would kill for a job that paid that well today.
"Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's?"
I don't know, but my Polish relatives who arrived in the 1910's did get paid very well for their labor (mills) relative to today, it enabled them to buy homes and farm land in a matter of 2-3 years, nobody could do that today.
Your chart makes my argument, surplus amounts of low skilled labor has also driven down medium skilled wages as well, thanks for proving my point.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: TPP [Re: qman]
#23525599 - 08/09/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Wages can't be driven below minimum wage
Yet, millions of illegals do work below that wage.
So? Are you saying illegals are driving their own wages down? Or that you think illegals should be paid more?
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: we don't have to worry about a few extra workers
I agree, we have to worry about the potential ten million extra workers.
Only if the unemployment rate is too high, which it's not.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: African slaves
Oh really, my grandmother worked as a maid for many years for a high level retired military man, she was paid very well during those Great Depression years, many people today would kill for a job that paid that well today.
Do you know what her salary was? An internet search shows the average maid was paid less than minimum wage of that time. Also, are you arguing that there was less immigration back then? There was plenty:
http://cis.org/articles/2006/back106.html

Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Chinese immigrants were paid well in the 1800's?
I don't know, but my Polish relatives who arrived in the 1910's did get paid very well for their labor (mills) relative to today, it enabled them to buy homes and farm land in a matter of 2-3 years, nobody could do that today.
Yes, people could do that today if they don't live a high cost city. The average price for a four-bedroom, two bathroom home in Cleveland is $64,993.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Your chart makes my argument, surplus amounts of low skilled labor has also driven down medium skilled wages as well, thanks for proving my point.
The chart doesn't show what caused wages to drop; you keep pretending it's a surplus of workers, although you have never been able to show evidence to back you up. It simply shows labor for educated workers is going up, disproving your point.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
He completely ignores that millions of illegals work below minimum wage
What brilliant debate skills
|
big_scrappy97
Lurker



Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 238
Loc: United States of America
|
|
Quote:
Wow, for one thing, I'm not sure where you live but construction jobs are highly desirable by any guy who didn't go to college and work at a desk. Around here, them jobs fill up quick! And as for the oilfield, if you have a job there right now, you're still making damn good money. You're a fool if you think they don't.
As for people who served time, are you now saying criminals shouldn't have good jobs? Should they always be forced into crime? Becuase that's what your comment is implying
Well where I live no one wants to work labor jobs. Getting a desk job isn't that hard and you don't need years of college to get one. It may mean less pay than someone that has a degree. I live where there are a lot of oilfields. The ones who work there are on edge of whether they will have a job within the next week or two. They are constantly laying people off due to the price of oil. It is the last industry anyone is trying to get into right now.
And no, I am not saying that. I am just saying no one wants to work around a bunch of criminals. I have worked at a warehouse for about 8 months and have worked with tons of people who have served jail time. Every single one of them acts like 14 year olds with a chip on their shoulders. Keep in mind many of them are approaching their 40's.
--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
Sounds like you live in a very lazy part of the country if no one wants labor jobs, I'd much rather be out in the field than sitting at a desk, and yes, not being lazy is a big part of that.
So tell me, what kind of desk job can you get without college? At entry level? Telemarketing is about the only one I can think of offhand, I genuinely am curious about these good paying desk jobs with no college and no experience
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Fal, if employment is really back to normal, yet my ask you a few questions.
1. If we have "full employment" like you claim, why is GDP growth barely at 1%? That doesn't even make sense, historically the GDP growth rate should be 3% or higher with strong employment rates, we are NOT seeing it.
2. If we are back to "normal employment" levels, why have interest rates stayed at 0% for the past 8 years? It doesn't make sense, "normal employment" levels should have rates at least in the 3-6% range. Today the Fed can't even hike rates .25 basis points, why is that?
3. "Full employment" should have higher wage pressure, this isn't happening today, wages are stagnant. Every other time period when full employment was occurring, wages went higher! Why was my father getting 8-12% ANNUAL wage hikes at the corporation he was working at in the 1970's? It wasn't because they were just nicer.
|
|