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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Not sure why you think costs would be "astronomically" higher. It's been proven with empirical evidence that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises overall prices by no more than 0.4%.
So it's not a one to one increase. I'd take a 10% increase in wages for a 0.4% increase in prices any day.
Interesting read. I don't know though. It goes against my core being to raise it that high though. I still feel like people should work for a living wage.
I too believe that people need to work for a living wage. If someone isn't worth the minimum wage after a minimum wage increase, they should be fired (yes, I said that).
But the fact is that the vast majority of workers today are paid FAR below what they're worth to their company. Empirical evidence shows that minimum wage increases do not have a long term negative impact to unemployment; in fact it may even be good for employment because more people would have more money to spend.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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big_scrappy97 said: When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.
And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%." So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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big_scrappy97
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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big_scrappy97 said: When the minimum wage went up less than a dollar most menu items went up along with it. Every day I would get a customer that would ask about the menu prices and the rise in prices. Every time I would respond with "blame the minimum wage rise and inflation." Look at it on a broader scale and it would go the same with other businesses. Just about all businesses in the food industry and grocery stores would raise prices since both already have low profit margins.
And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%." So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.
Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument. We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right. I will also, then, be in support of more than doubling the minimum wage like the $15/hour wage activists are trying to push.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%." So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.
Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.
Could you post those please? I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.
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big_scrappy97 said: We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right.
Why wait two years? Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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big_scrappy97
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%." So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.
Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.
Could you post those please? I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.
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big_scrappy97 said: We will see how the $15 minimum wage hike affects smaller towns in California with much lower costs of living than cities like Los Angeles. I may be wrong, I may be right. We will see how California is doing in a few years and if they are better off than the rest of the nation I will come back and say that you were right.
Why wait two years? Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?
http://minimum-wage.procon.org/ Here. This will show you how this issue has many opposing viewpoints. Each pro and con has reputable sites behind each statement. As I said, we will only know the consequences if we put it into place. If you know anything about economics, then you should know about inflation, job loss, and a cutback of people being hired on.
Also, I just realized your study does not line up with a $15 minimum wage. Setting a minimum wage to $15/hour would increase it over 100%, not 10%. The study strictly targets a 10% increase. If we raised the minimum wage slowly over the course of 10 years 10% at a time, then yes, it might work. But, raising it over 100% all at once is bound to fail the economy. I still stand by what I say and that is if someone works at fast food for the rest of their lives, they deserve to struggle. You obviously have no idea of the amount of people who are comfortable working a sorry ass job like that for the rest of their lives. It is good for students and that is about it. Cleaning, flipping burgers, or simply pushing buttons at a cash register at a grocery store are not skills and shouldn't be paid as them. Living the American dream is a byproduct of hard work while working smart and isn't a right.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And the empirical evidence shows "that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%." So while it does have a larger impact on food prices, it's still a good deal when you get a 10% raise and only pay 4% more for food and 0.4% more for other things.
Well, there are other studies that say otherwise as well. At the end of the day, there are always rebuttals to each argument.
Could you post those please? I like to look at the methodologies used by different studies.
http://minimum-wage.procon.org/ Here. This will show you how this issue has many opposing viewpoints. Each pro and con has reputable sites behind each statement.
Con #4 from you link discusses price increases. According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%". That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above. A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why wait two years? Why not look at the cities that have already raised their minimum wage?
As I said, we will only know the consequences if we put it into place.
We've already implemented it in some cities, so we already know the consequences. Why ignore that?
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big_scrappy97 said: Also, I just realized your study does not line up with a $15 minimum wage. Setting a minimum wage to $15/hour would increase it over 100%, not 10%. The study strictly targets a 10% increase. If we raised the minimum wage slowly over the course of 10 years 10% at a time, then yes, it might work. But, raising it over 100% all at once is bound to fail the economy.
Did you just made that up? How do you know that? The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.
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big_scrappy97 said: I still stand by what I say and that is if someone works at fast food for the rest of their lives, they deserve to struggle. Living the American dream is a byproduct of hard work while working smart and isn't a right.
And I can't argue with that because that's your opinion. My opinion is that anyone who works full time doesn't "deserve to struggle", and they should have a right for a living wage. Until you actually produce evidence that this would hurt the economy, I'm sticking with this opinion.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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big_scrappy97
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Con #4 from you link discusses price increases. According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%". That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above. A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.
You are literally nitpicking at one fact out of all the cons. You are ignoring all the other facts- job loss, companies closing down, teenagers no longer being able to work, higher drop-out rates, outsourcing, automation, etc.
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The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.
Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Fransisco have a higher cost of living so this is a horrible example. Their wages are already higher.
In this article https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-03-29/san-francisco-can-afford-a-15-minimum-wage-mariposa-cannot it says this: At what point do the harms start to outweigh the benefits? So far it's hard to say; the cities that have tried big increases haven’t completed the transition, so we don’t have much data. But even when we get that data, it's probably not a good idea to extrapolate from the experience of a handful of high-wage cities. Their professional class can afford to pay higher prices for goods and services with relatively little pain. The effect of a $15-an-hour minimum wage is apt to be very different in San Francisco (average weekly wage roughly $1,700) than it is in Mariposa County (average weekly wage $640).
This will directly hurt small towns.
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big_scrappy97
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At the end of the day, if we do increase it to $15/hour we need to be smart about it. Doubling the minimum wage all at once is not a good idea for small towns and businesses. Corporations like Wal-Mart could easily bounce back. Starting a business is already hard enough but add on a doubling minimum wage and that just adds onto its expenses. We should have it at $15/hour (and possibly higher at that time depending on cost of living) in 5-10 years with slowly increasing it so the economy can balance itself out.
I just don't find it fair that my mom and a few other family members make $21-$$28/hour after years of college while working full time while raising children to make that close of a wage to someone who is simply flipping burgers.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Con #4 from you link discusses price increases. According to the specifics in your link "A 2015 Purdue University study found that raising the wage of fast food restaurant employees to $15 per hour would result in a price increase of 4.3%". That's actually LESS than the food price increase I noted above. A 50% increase in minimum wage resulting in only a 4.3% increase in fast food prices would be WELL worth it for workers.
You are literally nitpicking at one fact out of all the cons.
I asked for a link showing price increases resulting from a minimum wage increase, and you provided a link showing they would be even LESS than what I had posted. That's not "nitpicking", that's me staying on topic. 
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big_scrappy97 said: You are ignoring all the other facts- job loss, companies closing down, teenagers no longer being able to work, higher drop-out rates, outsourcing, automation, etc.
No, I'm not ignoring those; we simply weren't talking about those. If you want to discuss those, let's do it! Let's start with your first point - job losses.
I already posted a link with many articles showing minimum wage increases do not have a long term negative impact to unemployment. The methodology used is empirical evidence. Your pros/cons link provided evidence from a CBO study which states that if you raise the minimum wage by 40%, total employment falls by 0.3% but 25% of the population would get a very comfortable pay increase.
That 25% can then help grow the economy with increased spending after which the 0.3% would get rehired.
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big_scrappy97 said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The fact is that at least 10 cities, such as Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco, are raising their minimum wage to $15 and hour, and we can already see the effects.
Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Fransisco have a higher cost of living so this is a horrible example. Their wages are already higher.
In this article https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-03-29/san-francisco-can-afford-a-15-minimum-wage-mariposa-cannot it says this: At what point do the harms start to outweigh the benefits? So far it's hard to say; the cities that have tried big increases haven’t completed the transition, so we don’t have much data. But even when we get that data, it's probably not a good idea to extrapolate from the experience of a handful of high-wage cities. Their professional class can afford to pay higher prices for goods and services with relatively little pain. The effect of a $15-an-hour minimum wage is apt to be very different in San Francisco (average weekly wage roughly $1,700) than it is in Mariposa County (average weekly wage $640).
This will directly hurt small towns.
This goes right back to our original argument. Price increases don't go up nearly as much as the minimum wage increase, so it's the poor people that come out ahead.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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big_scrappy97
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: This goes right back to our original argument. Price increases don't go up nearly as much as the minimum wage increase, so it's the poor people that come out ahead. 
You know what? Doing more research, it really would benefit the economy and several economists would agree. I am just skeptical about the laziness and comfortability of staying in a minimum wage job. Also, should we still have things like SNAP and Section 8 if everyone who worked would be above the poverty line? It seems like programs after that point would directly support the lazy people who don't want to work.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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big_scrappy97 said: You know what? Doing more research, it really would benefit the economy.... I am just skeptical about the laziness and comfortability of staying in a minimum wage job.
I hear you. If someone isn't worth the new minimum wage, they should be fired (and they will be becasue businessess are not charity organizations). But based on past empirical evidence, the amount of job losses will be minimal, and only short term.
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big_scrappy97 said: Also, should we still have things like SNAP and Section 8 if everyone who worked would be above the poverty line? It seems like programs after that point would directly support the lazy people who don't want to work.
I agree with you again! Once full time employees make a living wage, there should be no reason to provide welfare benefits, including to able bodied citizens unwilling to work. Maybe short term unemployment, but that's it. That would save the taxpayers a lot of money.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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big_scrappy97
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I hear you. If someone isn't worth the new minimum wage, they should be fired (and they will be becasue businessess are not charity organizations). But based on past empirical evidence, the amount of job losses will be minimal, and only short term.
The only thing is there are businesses that are hurting for people and already have a high turnover rate. Some people won't be worth the new wage. I suppose that is really the company's issue at that point. Studies also actually show that, in the long term, this could very well create jobs.
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I agree with you again! Once full time employees make a living wage, there should be no reason to provide welfare benefits, including to able bodied citizens unwilling to work. Maybe short term unemployment, but that's it. That would save the taxpayers a lot of money.
I completely agree! I just still have an issue with someone that flips burgers for a living to make nearly that close of a salary as someone who went and busted their ass to get a specialized job. It kind of goes against the American way of reaping the benefits of working hard.
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qman
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A naturally strong labor market SHOULD move the wages higher of skilled workers, that should have nothing to do with minimum wage laws, unless that minimum wage mandate is completely out of sorts with the true supply and demand dynamics of the labor market.
What does someone who makes 80k per year care about some workers making $12 per hour instead of $9 per hour? They don't.
There are limits to how high the minimum wage can go without it causing employment and small business harm, if it were only so simple to go to India, Mexico, Vietnam, and other countries and just setup a higher minimum wage law to solve all of the economic problems, it doesn't work that way.
The minimum wage law should reflect the economic strength of that country, and the supply and demand of that labor market.
Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history? Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
#23521938 - 08/08/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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qman said: Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history? Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!
You keep bringing up that argument and you keep losing that argument. But since there are a lot of new posters here in the political forum, why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
big_scrappy97 said: I just still have an issue with someone that flips burgers for a living to make nearly that close of a salary as someone who went and busted their ass to get a specialized job. It kind of goes against the American way of reaping the benefits of working hard.
If the wages of people flipping burgers goes up, it will force the wages of skilled workers up as well. Otherwise, skilled workers would just leave their skilled job for an unskilled job at the same wage.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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qman said: Why are the current US minimum wage mandates so low relative to other economic eras in US history? Because the fundamentals are worse for US workers!
You keep bringing up that argument and you keep losing that argument. But since there are a lot of new posters here in the political forum, why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse. 
"provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse"
Is having tens of millions of illegals entering the US labor markets good for the fundamentals for US workers? No, more supply drives wages lower.
Does exporting tens of millions of US jobs to other countries help the wages and employment for US workers? No, that drives wages lower.
What have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL WAGES of US workers? Real wages are DOWN.
What are the average GDP growth rates in the US? Down from previous time frames.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: TPP [Re: qman]
#23522084 - 08/08/16 02:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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qman said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: why don't you provide your evidence that the fundamentals are worse. 
Is having tens of millions of illegals entering the US labor markets good for the fundamentals for US workers? No, more supply drives wages lower.
More domestic demand for products and services is good for US workers. The net effect of more workers is a wash. That's why unemployment doesn't go up with increasing population.
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qman said: Does exporting tens of millions of US jobs to other countries help the wages and employment for US workers? No, that drives wages lower.
I agree. And all candidates now claim they are against TPP.
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qman said: What have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL WAGES of US workers? Real wages are DOWN.
I agree. And what have we seen in the past 20-30 years for REAL MINIMUM WAGES of US workers? Real minimum wages are DOWN.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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By the way, here are some economic indicators:
Corporate profits are at an all time high:

Unemployment is way down:

And yet all this excess profit only goes to the 1%:

and so inequality is at an all time high:

The money is there. We just need to get it to the middle and lower class. A higher minimum wage is a great start, and as shown above this won't have any serious negative impacts (unless it's raised to a crazy amount).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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hostileuniverse said: Inequality is at an all time high because cheap labor is flooding the market, that's a fact
40% of Americans today now make LESS than the real 1968 minimum wage. We can solve that problem instantly with a minimum wage increase.
What about tax cuts for the rich? Or corporate welfare? Or anti union sentiment? Or Free Trade agreements? Do those not contribute to inequality?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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