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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Hitchen's Razor * 1
    #23500139 - 08/01/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Is a handy discernment tool attributed to Christopher Hitchens and is an off-shoot to Occam's Razor.

Simple stated "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Using this one tool instantly does away with just about all mystical and religious claims.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #23500241 - 08/01/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Not to dismiss empiricism, but just because there is nothing meaningful to say about a particular putative phenomenon, is it not still possible that this phenomenon in some way exists and has properties?  How can we make declarations either way?  I suppose I am taking the agnostic position here. 

(Just for the sake of discussion).


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #23500252 - 08/01/16 10:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Using Hitchen's razor, you can dismiss Hitchen's razor.



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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23500255 - 08/01/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

it seems like the end result will be a zero-sum



i assert with no evidence that life has purpose.  dismissed

i assert with no evidence that life has no purpose.  dismissed


so........


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23500379 - 08/01/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Not to dismiss empiricism, but just because there is nothing meaningful to say about a particular putative phenomenon, is it not still possible that this phenomenon in some way exists and has properties?  How can we make declarations either way?  I suppose I am taking the agnostic position here. 

(Just for the sake of discussion).





The idea of something being possible has little meaning to me. If someone can observe a phenomenon (not a one-time thing) then it can be observed, studied and measured by others.

Flat assertions are basically claims of special knowledge. "I know this, but am not going to tell you less spiritually evolved people how I know it."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23500509 - 08/02/16 12:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I like Hitchen's book: "The Missionary Position". It needed saying; the dude had balls.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23500526 - 08/02/16 01:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Is a handy discernment tool attributed to Christopher Hitchens and is an off-shoot to Occam's Razor.

Simple stated "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Using this one tool instantly does away with just about all mystical and religious claims.




It also does away with the claim that the brain produces consciousness.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: viktor]
    #23500566 - 08/02/16 01:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It does? Disregarding tons of research into neurophysiology for the moment, if someone smacked you hard in the brainpan with a baseball bat you would likely:

A. remain unaffected

B. have an increase consciousness

C. have a decrease consciousness


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23500616 - 08/02/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong. My body might exhibit more, or less, consciousness when judged from your perspective, but that's all you can say. As for what actually happened to my consciousness you have no idea.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23500623 - 08/02/16 03:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Is a handy discernment tool attributed to Christopher Hitchens and is an off-shoot to Occam's Razor.

Simple stated "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Using this one tool instantly does away with just about all mystical and religious claims.





Is that also the response you give when somebody tells you that they love you?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23500809 - 08/02/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Not to dismiss empiricism, but just because there is nothing meaningful to say about a particular putative phenomenon, is it not still possible that this phenomenon in some way exists and has properties?  How can we make declarations either way?  I suppose I am taking the agnostic position here. 

(Just for the sake of discussion).





The idea of something being possible has little meaning to me. If someone can observe a phenomenon (not a one-time thing) then it can be observed, studied and measured by others.

Flat assertions are basically claims of special knowledge. "I know this, but am not going to tell you less spiritually evolved people how I know it."






how do you think scale plays into this?  obviously, this is hypothetical, but: say one is looking at celestial events. an event occurs that can only happen under very strict conditions, which are only met once every fifty-thousand years.  the event takes place; every one is a witness but no one understands the mechanism allowing it to be.  no physical/chemical remnants are left behind for one to study, just many people's own personal accounts.

seeing as how no one presently alive will be such during a recurrence, nor being able to replicate it, does this mean it can be dismissed?


does Hitchen specifically note anything about time/scale in relation to his Razor?



Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Is that also the response you give when somebody tells you that they love you?




:strokebeard:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineUniversaleyeni
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: falcon]
    #23500863 - 08/02/16 07:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Using Hitchen's razor, you can dismiss Hitchen's razor.




:laugh2: :thumbup:

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Is that also the response you give when somebody tells you that they love you?




:haha:


Edited by Universaleyeni (08/02/16 07:34 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: demiu5]
    #23503788 - 08/02/16 10:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
it seems like the end result will be a zero-sum



i assert with no evidence that life has purpose.  dismissed

i assert with no evidence that life has no purpose.  dismissed


so........




I assert with evidence from disciplines of biology, chemistry and the theory of evolution that the purpose of DNA is to procreate itself.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23505241 - 08/03/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Is that also the response you give when somebody tells you that they love you?




I suppose if you want to be obtuse, but you are intelligent enough to know that his is not the type of claim that this tool is generally applied to.

:willfred:


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: demiu5]
    #23511119 - 08/04/16 09:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
it seems like the end result will be a zero-sum



i assert with no evidence that life has purpose.  dismissed

i assert with no evidence that life has no purpose.  dismissed


so........




Hit the nail on the head.
We're all alive and then we're dead.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23511204 - 08/04/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Is that also the response you give when somebody tells you that they love you?




I suppose if you want to be obtuse, but you are intelligent enough to know that his is not the type of claim that this tool is generally applied to.

:willfred:




I disagree, it's one thing to assert that the universe is 6,000 years old.  We have evidence this is simply false..... But when somebody says "I experienced love today" or "I experienced oneness with the universe", both are utterly intangible and all you can do is guess that they experienced something they found significant to them, regardless of their capacity to articulate themselves.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23511236 - 08/04/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What I am saying is this is generally not the type of claim (personal feeling or personal experience; i.e. subjective) that this would apply to. Objective claims are the ones being challenged.


--------------------


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23511245 - 08/04/16 10:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, but how do you discern what is a claim and what is a metaphor?  "Consciousness is Love, Beauty, Truth, etc."  I mean you can take it literally and toss it out, but it's all together possible you just never learned the difference between the two. :shrug:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23511269 - 08/04/16 11:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It could be a claim, but if there's no evidence, why shouldn't it be dismissed?

Consciousness: Obvious correlation between a body being alive and exhibiting consciousness, dead body not exhibiting consciousness. Proof either way? No, but evidence is suggestive. If there's no evidence to suggest otherwise, shouldn't the alternate idea be dismissed?

Love: if there's no evidence then probably smart to dismiss.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Rahz]
    #23511300 - 08/04/16 11:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, convictions are for convicts (think Leary coined that phrase).  Mysticism really isn't about convictions, maybe some acid heads here go a little bonkers and start playing preacher, but really it's just studying your own consciousness... So when you start taking psychedelic drugs and going deeper down the rabbit hole and end up starting to think abstractly about concepts like time, you really only get to speak in metaphors and hope it resonates with somebody else.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23511433 - 08/05/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure most of the mystic claims brought up here are intended as metaphorical, but I get what you're saying.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Rahz]
    #23512014 - 08/05/16 08:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I dunno, when I say Consciousness doesn't exist in the body, I mean metaphorically that there is a shared awareness.  Existence could be beautiful or ugly, but in many circumstances that is on you, and Consciousness will exist with you or without you.  It has nothing to do with what happens or doesn't post-mortem.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23512483 - 08/05/16 11:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well sure... but that's totally understandable and reasonable. :thumbup:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke] * 2
    #23512538 - 08/05/16 11:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Just gonna drop this off here...


Quote:

We have already noted that the idea that ontologically independent beings ('spirits') or intelligences are contactable through plant-induced trances is standard in most if not all shamanic tribal societies, but to posit such a thing in modern Western societies is viewed as tantamount to insanity, a nonsense notion to be dismissed out of hand. In other words, we can’t discuss it without forfeiting all credibility. This problem concerning the inability to explore certain ideas has been addressed by Oxford-based researcher, Andy Letcher. He uses Foucauldian discourse analysis to critique the models, the 'discourses' employed by the West in dealing with the content of altered mind states. These include pathological, prohibition, psychological, recreational, psychedelic, entheogenic discourses. Each has its own imposed boundaries; they are cognitive constructs. Letcher notes that some of these discourses or approaches to hallucinogenic substances ignore the subjective experience of the altered mind states involved, or else place it within an inner, psychological framework rather than it being a case of simply seeing more, of being in a wider frame of consciousness. He critiques even the entheogenic discourse as relying on a “God within” model, divine revelation that does not by any means occur in all altered states. However diverse they might be, all these discourses can be used within the norms of Western culture. Only one discourse crosses that "fundamental societal boundary," what Letcher refers to as the animistic discourse – the belief that the taking of, say, hallucinogenic mushrooms occasions actual "encounters with discarnate spirit entities." Because of the deep-rooted modern Western assumption that consciousness cannot occur in any other guise than human (the ultimate hubris of our species, perhaps) discussion of a conscious plant kingdom, or of that providing a portal through which contact with other, ontologically independent beings or intelligences can occur, is simply not possible within the mainstream culture. "It nevertheless remains a phenomenon in need of further scholarly research," Letcher rightly insists.




--------------------
full blown human


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23512551 - 08/05/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I believe the Beatles wrote a song about that.

Is this the part where we all hold hands and telepathically whisper sweet nothings and giggle? Perhaps we'll all start dancing in magical synchronization.

I'm all giddy already.

:datass:


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #23512592 - 08/05/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The last sentence in that quote was paramount.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23512910 - 08/05/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Super large :paradisiscoolwhat:


--------------------
full blown human


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Hitchen's Razor [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #23512930 - 08/05/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

World's largest tickle monster.


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