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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Miracles from Heaven
#23498734 - 08/01/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Both a movie and a book (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Heaven-Little-Amazing-Healing/dp/0316381837/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470086644&sr=8-1&keywords=miracles+from+heaven+book) designed to pump up the faithful.
Here is my major gripe with all of thee types of stories - only the survivors tell them. The hundreds of millions that prayed for a cure and died don't get to write uplifting books. Nor is there a sure-fire methodology to implement to mimic this girl's access to divine healing. It is hit or miss - as expected.
Unsurprisingly, the number of spontaneous healings is roughly the same between believers and non-believers belying any sort of Godly intervention.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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I don't pray keep finding jewelry on the ground. wtf. obviously from heaven. how else would it fall there. what does heaven mean: "from whence jewelry falls"
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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To me it seems like the way you use your mind can elevate cortisol levels and cause health problems or decrease them and possibly allow yourself to heal, depending on the condition. I think it's totally possible to kill yourself with your own mind, and sometimes possible to heal yourself with it. No faith is particularly required, but constantly beaming yourself messages that God loves you is self-hypnosis, it's like you're hypnotizing yourself that you're being cradled in the arms of a loved one. It has to help stress levels. Really depends on the disease as to how well that would work.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: Miracles from Heaven [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23499481 - 08/01/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Amazing post CJ.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
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Loc: the popcorn stadium
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another issue, among what you've pointed out, is that people often (generally always) fail to define their terms. what is a miracle? what is heaven? what is recovery?
what is to one, is not to another
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Under the C
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See the one-armed preacher on the right? He lost that arm to snake venom. A few years later he lost his life to another snake bite.
The only thing mysterious going on here is the mind-blowing stupidity.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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As to the rest of your links, I could explain how fraud and emotionalism are the root of the seeming miracles, but the environment is hardly controlled. In controlled tests among the faithful, intercessory prayer has shown no know effect on recovery from disease. None. Zero.
The number of spontaneous remissions (records are actually kept) at Lourdes, where the devout go to be healed, is slightly less than the general public. Not very convincing!
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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our interests here are slightly different you want to disprove faith healing as a reliable medical treatment and I'm at the moment interested in the emotional arousal and its effects, and curious about how placebos and indifference to the pain of piercing in indonesian religious ritual happens,and how warts are cured with hypnosis, etc.
http://en.mind-control.wikia.com/wiki/William_Sargant
start of long interesting article:
"William Walters Sargant (April 24, 1907 - August 27, 1988), was a British psychiatrist who is now famous for his work with shell-shocked servicemen during World War Two, and later for his publication of a book entitled Battle for the Mind in which he discusses the nature of the process by which our minds are subject to influence by others. While this book is often referred to as a work on 'brainwashing', and indeed it is subtitled a Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing, Sergant emphasises that his aim is to elucidate the processes involved rather than advocate uses. In the book he refers particularly to religious phenomena and in particular Christian methodism, emphasising the apparent need for those who would change people's minds to first excite them, as did the founder of methodism, John Wesley. However, there was another side to him that was heavily involved to the end of his career with the Intelligence Services, including the CIA Project MKULTRA. "
he also wrote "The mind possessed;: A physiology of possession, mysticism, and faith healing"
apparently he was a real creep, but he did have some interesting ideas about 'conversion phenomenon". See the review, if you like, on Amazon of The Unquiet Mind - an autobiography, by William Sargant, as to how freaky he was. He was a Dr. Strangelove of psychiatry.
Edited by laughingdog (08/02/16 01:26 AM)
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
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Last seen: 1 month, 29 days
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Re: Miracles from Heaven [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23500973 - 08/02/16 07:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: To me it seems like the way you use your mind can elevate cortisol levels and cause health problems or decrease them and possibly allow yourself to heal, depending on the condition. I think it's totally possible to kill yourself with your own mind, and sometimes possible to heal yourself with it. No faith is particularly required, but constantly beaming yourself messages that God loves you is self-hypnosis, it's like you're hypnotizing yourself that you're being cradled in the arms of a loved one. It has to help stress levels. Really depends on the disease as to how well that would work.
Good stuff man. 
I had a major headache once, and had a huge Lemurian seed crystal, I wanted to take my headache away very badly so touched the crystal to my temple with the faith that I could draw the pain out of my mind, well it worked, I saw a flash of light go through my head and my pain was instantly gone. I have done this a number of times, all with clear quartz.
But I think I wanted it to happen so badly, that it really did happen. Do I think I am a wizard, not at all.
I find placebo to be fascinating.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Miracles from Heaven [Re: Lucis]
#23501078 - 08/02/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Placebo is worthless against serious disease such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and so forth.
Some headaches are caused by constricted blood vessels so can be relaxed.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Just pretend your brain is a computer for a moment and you have a daemon running in the background that is executing serenity.... It might supersede all the other subconscious daemons running that make you overeat, smoke, or do whatever that causes you cancer, diabetes, and heart disease and so on in the first place. Once too much damage is already done, I don't know what this background program would do except make peace with your own nonexistence. Just a thought.....
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Miracles from Heaven [Re: CosmicJoke] 1
#23501606 - 08/02/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I still lurk just so I can read interesting commentaries like this.
Totally agree that mindset has more affect on our health than OC gives credit. One great example that I had the fortune of experiencing myself.
When a person experiences bodily trauma that could cause shock, mindset plays a huge role. Simply redirecting the experience towards a positive path can be enough to keep the person from going into shock. I remember hearing that during an NPR show (prob Radiolab if I had to guess, but I don't remember). I had a similar experience. When both the bones in my shin were broken during a climbing accident, I began to feel the panic and surreal realization set I that reality had just drastically altered. I began to get nauseous and started sweating profusely. And then my conscious dive kicked in, and I thought hey - this is just a detour. I will spend my summer painting instead. The paramedics said I was the happiest person they had ever seen with a broken leg at 6am.
Of course, your mileage may vary and my break was, thankfully, not a gorey scene, so I was probably able to maintain composure much better... But this phenomena isn't just distinct to my experience. Check out Amy Purdy's story for the same example on mindset, albeit in a much more life threatening situation.
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full blown human
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: ...Totally agree that mindset has more affect on our health than OC gives credit. One great example that I had the fortune of experiencing myself.
...
Yupp he's usually into humor, got himself all worked up at the moment. Dawkins, Hitchens, Randi, and Sam Harris all get paid to do debunking. I think Stevie Wonder had it right: "believers go on believing". They don't pay me enough to get my panties in a knot over this stuff. And as you point out there is vast body of lab studies on the effect of hypnosis on pain, meditation on stress, psychosomatic effects, and so on.
Take magnet 'therapy' sure most of it is bunk, and folks get ripped off, but now they have found out that very powerful magnets can affect both the brain and experience. A simple search will bring up lots of info. on this. Seems silly to throw out baby w bath water.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
Totally agree that mindset has more affect on our health than OC gives credit.
As with much of my serious posting, agreement or disagreement means little when actual facts are available.
I think it awesome that you were able to quickly shift your focus from your trauma. However, there is no evidence that such a shift speeded up your healing even one day. Such cellular repairs take place at a relatively fixed rate regardless of emotional state.
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Totally agree that mindset has more affect on our health than OC gives credit.
Such cellular repairs take place at a relatively fixed rate regardless of emotional state.
stressed compared to stress free, is the rate the same? is there any found variation in rate?
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Totally agree that mindset has more affect on our health than OC gives credit.
As with much of my serious posting, agreement or disagreement means little when actual facts are available.
I think it awesome that you were able to quickly shift your focus from your trauma. However, there is no evidence that such a shift speeded up your healing even one day. Such cellular repairs take place at a relatively fixed rate regardless of emotional state.
Admittedly, I didn't read the OP (hahah, RENEGADE) but I didn't say anything about cellular healing. I said it prevented me from going into shock, which is a cellular process. So I'm not sure what angle you're trying to drive here, buddy. It has nothing to do with whether I think your position is good, it's that I think it's wrong and I provided just one example (among others who have provided other reasons) as to why. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Eywa_devotee
Goddess Worshiper


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 1,088
Loc: State of Confusion, Arkan...
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Likely cause of the syndrome was the result of extra intracranial pressure on the vomiting center of the brain due to a blockage in the cerebral aqueduct network. In fact this same syndrome happened to my sister and was eventually caught and resolved itself in a few days when she had a spinal tap to check for meningitis.
If i were to guess, the fall and trauma from it likely caused a small herniation in a noncritical area of the brain where the excess CS fluid could leak out safely. Lucky definitely, miracle from a God maybe. Should you be grateful for the second chance? Yes.
-------------------- "Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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There was a man (no link) who had serious head trauma. When he recovered he was a musical genius despite having had no experience.
Neurologists had no explanation.
I tried to repeat the phenomenon and just got a huge bump and really sore.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: As to the rest of your links, I could explain how fraud and emotionalism are the root of the seeming miracles, but the environment is hardly controlled. In controlled tests among the faithful, intercessory prayer has shown no know effect on recovery from disease. None. Zero.
The number of spontaneous remissions (records are actually kept) at Lourdes, where the devout go to be healed, is slightly less than the general public. Not very convincing!
When you doubt yourself No amount of faith from others Or prayer to your God Will make a difference.
Trust yourself. Nothing else matters. What do you think Keeps your brain functioning To peak performance?
Cheetos, Fritos, Microwave Popcorn?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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