|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
Desire
#23496446 - 07/31/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?
Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?
Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?
Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?
Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
Edited by PaulyAnna (07/31/16 05:55 PM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
Should we submit an essay of 500 words on each topic queried?
Most all desires are biological. The End.
--------------------
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Any input is appreciated, thanks for yours.
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
Quote:
PaulyAnna said: Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?
Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?
Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?
Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?
Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?
Desire comes from intuition, instinct and the fight or flight response that we have as a result of our evolutionary ancestry.
Philosophies are there for you to make your own meanings.
My own kind of nirvana came when I learnt to ignore my feelings through awareness and acknowledgement that it's okay to let go of feelings because they're often not based in reality.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
#23496611 - 07/31/16 06:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
You are a meaningful, designed, purposeful and magnificent being, or so you inhabit one.
(The world is just in a state of cataclysmic failure.)
So you can modify your consciousness such that the thing which is truly sought, the Self, manifests in your body-mind - you align with the frequency of God.
Generally a moral effort is required. You must discipline yourself to some degree, largely because we are raised wrong.
Of course God is always true, is the ego that is at play. God doesn't play, God is just God - beautiful, infinite.
So really, any austerities you put yourself through, are essentially a deconditioning process, freeing yourself of the conditions put into your mind/life by society.
Desire is just emptiness, an emptiness that longs for God, but haplessly we try to love ourselves through base sensation.
Be consumed by God and find yourself desireless, but motivated into fruiting your talents through acts of giving instead of taking.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
I am a biological meat robot and Jesus was just a man.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
#23497299 - 07/31/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: I am a biological meat robot and Jesus was just a man.

I'da put you on ignore long ago but you seem entertainingly completely delusional. Can I call you looney, sudley?
Gotta like it.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
|
You can't fight the truth forever
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
#23497323 - 07/31/16 11:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: You can't fight the truth forever 
Sad, but true.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Should we submit an essay of 500 words on each topic queried?
Most all desires are biological. The End.
OC, can you give me 500 on "Most all desires are biological. The End." ?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
#23497474 - 08/01/16 01:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said:
My own kind of nirvana came when I learnt to ignore my feelings through awareness and acknowledgement that it's okay to let go of feelings because they're often not based in reality.
Concerning your kinda nirvana, I like how you put it. . . pretty simple.
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
beforethedawn said: You are a meaningful, designed, purposeful and magnificent being, or so you inhabit one.
(The world is just in a state of cataclysmic failure.)
So you can modify your consciousness such that the thing which is truly sought, the Self, manifests in your body-mind - you align with the frequency of God.
Generally a moral effort is required. You must discipline yourself to some degree, largely because we are raised wrong.
Of course God is always true, is the ego that is at play. God doesn't play, God is just God - beautiful, infinite.
So really, any austerities you put yourself through, are essentially a deconditioning process, freeing yourself of the conditions put into your mind/life by society.
Desire is just emptiness, an emptiness that longs for God, but haplessly we try to love ourselves through base sensation.
Be consumed by God and find yourself desireless, but motivated into fruiting your talents through acts of giving instead of taking.
Summarizing most of what you said, does Psalm 37:3-5 apply?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
|
Looks like it does.
I like your signature.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
#edit
Edited by zzripz (08/01/16 08:33 AM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
Quote:
PaulyAnna said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Should we submit an essay of 500 words on each topic queried?
Most all desires are biological. The End.
OC, can you give me 500 on "Most all desires are biological. The End." ?
Tired - you sleep
Horny - you ****
Thirsty - you drink
Hungry - you eat
Cold - you get a blanket or a coat
That covers the basic desires.
--------------------
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
there is a primordial desire which is natural and which loves and desires life and all that that means, wonder, beauty, sex, ecstasy
But the toxic myth-makers, as they do, exploit this natural desire towards whatever it is they are selling to control you, make profit from you. So they will thus have it to make you 'desire' the 'god' or 'God' or 'idea' or 'product' they are claiming is what will satisfy your desire. They will make it so they hook you to always seeking but not really being allowed to express your desire because they want you hooked to their product for life.
This article below is a very good example of what I am saying. It shows how women, especially in Africa, have their natural desires suppressed. Women also suffer actual genital mutilation of the sexual parts! Toxic myth is not only aimed at the psyche but will attack your very body!! males get 'circumcised'.
Quote:
Trapped in the closet: Why sexual pleasure and the erotic remain locked away
Many patriarchal cultures in Africa force women to suppress the erotic since it is not deemed to be good behaviour for women to desire or to express their sexuality and sexual pleasure. Culture has even made talking about sex and pleasure taboo, especially for women.
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23500897 - 08/02/16 07:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
PaulyAnna said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Should we submit an essay of 500 words on each topic queried?
Most all desires are biological. The End.
OC, can you give me 500 on "Most all desires are biological. The End." ?
Tired - you sleep
Horny - you ****
Thirsty - you drink
Hungry - you eat
Cold - you get a blanket or a coat
That covers the basic desires.
So, it probably starts and ends at the cellular level?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
Posts: 15,622
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23500957 - 08/02/16 07:51 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said: But the toxic myth-makers, as they do, exploit this natural desire towards whatever it is they are selling to control you, make profit from you. So they will thus have it to make you 'desire' the 'god' or 'God' or 'idea' or 'product' they are claiming is what will satisfy your desire. They will make it so they hook you to always seeking but not really being allowed to express your desire because they want you hooked to their product for life.
What if the only place you experience that "god feeling" is in nature, in a place without anyone trying to sell you anything, and not trying to control you?
If you view most religions adherents as deceivers only trying to sell their faith, there to feed on those that drink from its waters like a croc waiting to attack a wildebeest at waters edge, and you wander nature alone to find solace, then the burning bush appears, and after such an event takes place your life is forever changed, what then?
If you take psychedelics, and angelic beings show you the future, and those events come to pass without any deviation from what was told, what then? What if after such a psychedelic experience you could access the same state of mind psychedelics allow one to access, without using psychedelics, without meditation, with just a thought.
I don't know man, but I have seen some things which I cannot explain rationally, from people with sound minds. I have seen the results of a handful of what I think were legitimate spiritual experiences, and the peoples lives they impacted, really did improve for the better, and were forever changed, and just being around those people makes one feel uplifted.
-------------------- ©️
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Desire [Re: Lucis]
#23501104 - 08/02/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fennario said:
Quote:
zzripz said: But the toxic myth-makers, as they do, exploit this natural desire towards whatever it is they are selling to control you, make profit from you. So they will thus have it to make you 'desire' the 'god' or 'God' or 'idea' or 'product' they are claiming is what will satisfy your desire. They will make it so they hook you to always seeking but not really being allowed to express your desire because they want you hooked to their product for life.
What if the only place you experience that "god feeling" is in nature, in a place without anyone trying to sell you anything, and not trying to control you?
If you view most religions adherents as deceivers only trying to sell their faith, there to feed on those that drink from its waters like a croc waiting to attack a wildebeest at waters edge, and you wander nature alone to find solace, then the burning bush appears, and after such an event takes place your life is forever changed, what then?
If you take psychedelics, and angelic beings show you the future, and those events come to pass without any deviation from what was told, what then? What if after such a psychedelic experience you could access the same state of mind psychedelics allow one to access, without using psychedelics, without meditation, with just a thought.
I don't know man, but I have seen some things which I cannot explain rationally, from people with sound minds. I have seen the results of a handful of what I think were legitimate spiritual experiences, and the peoples lives they impacted, really did improve for the better, and were forever changed, and just being around those people makes one feel uplifted.
I can gell with your first sentence.
But in the second paragraph you introduce the mythical story of the 'burning bush'. This is supposedly some character from way back when:
Quote:
Moses and the Burning Bush Story Summary
While tending his father-in-law Jethro's sheep in the land of Midian, Moses saw a baffling sight on Mount Horeb. A bush was on fire, but it did not burn up. Moses went over to the burning bush to investigate, and the voice of God called to him.
God explained that he had seen how miserable his chosen people, the Hebrews, were in Egypt, where they were being held as slaves. God had come down from heaven to rescue them. He picked Moses to carry out that task.
Now we have gone from nature to someone claiming a 'voice' who is also claimed to be 'God' no less, talking about a section of humanity 'he' is calling his 'chosen people'. ?? Are you going to accept this story? Are you not going to question it, using your own critical integrity? I don't know if a 'Mises' even existed, but whatever, just because someone calims a vision, experience does not mean that MUST be the truth imposed on others. That kind of 'revealed' religion is toxic. So much evil has come from stuff like this which of course gets writ down and poisons generations of those indoctrinated into it
Quote:
If you take psychedelics, and angelic beings show you the future, and those events come to pass without any deviation from what was told, what then? What if after such a psychedelic experience you could access the same state of mind psychedelics allow one to access, without using psychedelics, without meditation, with just a thought.
Has this happened to you?
The whole origins of the idea of 'angelic' beings' versus 'demonic' beings where the former are supposed to ba all-good and the latter all-bad comes from a dualistic mindset which divides the world up into good and evil
Also, you don't have to be TOLD the 'future' you can see now how if the insanity towards the natural world and others continues it will become more and more hellish for all life, not just a 'chosen people'!
Quote:
I don't know man, but I have seen some things which I cannot explain rationally, from people with sound minds. I have seen the results of a handful of what I think were legitimate spiritual experiences, and the peoples lives they impacted, really did improve for the better, and were forever changed, and just being around those people makes one feel uplifted.
I am not a materialist or rationalist. But there is radical difference between believing in transcendental 'spirits' and understanding the 'matter' is dynamically related with 'spirit'
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Should we submit an essay of 500 words on each topic queried?
Most all desires are biological. The End.
internal animal biology plus conditioning/ association/memory/karma/ habit/likes & dislikes plus individual personality & mental factors and beliefs plus ignorance/ego delusion plus environmental factors/food/chemicals consumed/temperature/sources of danger and opportunity, etc
A good does of heroin disconnects unconscious anxiety about getting what one wants - temporarily
Probably quayludes, and valium etc. also mitigate the compulsive nature of much goal seeking
Supposedly the 8 buddhist jhanas also disconnect desire - temporarily
But as long as we are alive the organism manifests purpose, and consumes other life, and kills germs and parasites, which are evidence of individual desire.
How excessive, compulsive, arrogant, angry, and selfish our desires are is however susceptible to some conscious control when observed & subject to deliberate and persistent effort. Something some politicians don’t get.
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
I think many desires are due to attachment.
I see something on Amazon I'm interested in.
I think about it. I get excited. I feel tension. I want it.
I feel more tension. I want to get rid of the tension and anxiety.
I purchase the item. I wait anxiously for it to come in the mail.
The package arrives. I feel a sense of relief. (And emptiness)
I open the package. I put it on a shelf. I try to forget about it.
I often have buyers remorse and wish I hadn't bought it.
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: I think many desires are due to attachment.
I see something on Amazon I'm interested in.
I think about it. I get excited. I feel tension. I want it.
I feel more tension. I want to get rid of the tension and anxiety.
I purchase the item. I wait anxiously for it to come in the mail.
The package arrives. I feel a sense of relief. (And emptiness)
I open the package. I put it on a shelf. I try to forget about it.
I often have buyers remorse and wish I hadn't bought it.
Do you think desire without attachment is a healthy balance?
You used the pronoun "I" 17x in your reply. So, with this example and observation, would you affirm that desire arose from self?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'
Here is also a good example of how the profit-head fiends exploit a natural desire, eg for sugar:
There are receptors in the brain that light up when we have sweet things. I am not reducing human behaviour to chemicals, but just relaying one important facet of our being. When therefore we eat fruit it is symbiotic with feeling good, and eating fruits which have natural sugars are healthy for animals and humans and insects etc
So what the pushers of man-made sugar saturated products do is exploit this natural healthy desire by substituting THEIR product for the natural fruits. This is why many children now--who are the main targets of these fiends--crave sugar-saturated, and even chocolate-covered cereals, and crappy sugary drinks, and sweets--full of the worst kind of sugars and sweeteners, and other chemicals which will rot their teeth, cause obesity, and other disease, and most of all induce sugar addiction!
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23504481 - 08/03/16 05:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds like a dopamine rush.
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
I'm not saying desire is "bad" or we should get rid of it.
(to want to get rid of desire would be an oxymoron, right?)
I'm just commenting about the nature of desire related to attachment.
It's like when an addict "jones" for a fix of their favorite chemical or activity. We falsely believe the object of desire fuels the addicts behavior, but it's actually the attachment to desire that causes an addict to go against their better judgment.
Same with obsessive love. Sometimes people stalk someone or go the murder/suicide route when they can not have what they desire. When an obsessed person kills themselves over the loss of a lover, they are killing their strong attachment to desire because they know of no other way to deal with it, so suicide seems a logical way to end it.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: ....
I'm just commenting about the nature of desire related to attachment. ... We falsely believe the object of desire fuels the addicts behavior, but it's actually the attachment to desire that causes an addict to go against their better judgment. ...
a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.
But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.
It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.
These facts may be some aspects of the Buddhist view, which perhaps is partly taking it all with a grain of salt. Detachment is just a fancy word for finding it all amusing, isn't it?
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Yes, I think there is a lot of wisdom in not taking things too seriously. It's liberating in a lot of ways.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23505111 - 08/03/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said: all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'
I believe your use of a stereo typed, sound byte view, of 'Buddhism' has been corrected before. But apparently having a 'straw man' argument serves your purpose. Then again I suppose it is a common misunderstanding or cliche, so anyone lacking real curiosity is prone to this error. But, in case anyone might want a more objective view they might consider that:
Many Vipassana teachers for example aren't into the jhanas, (deep meditative states), and don't teach them, because they fear they will create attachment to bliss in their students, as opposed to the more important goals of equanimity, morality/compassion, & insight.
The Zen literature is also full of references debunking your simplistic distortion. As well as the Buddhist sutras themselves. The jhanas apparently are considered by some teachers to be useful 'stepping stones' on the long path to learning meditation and understanding mental functioning and perception. But the point is always made that they are 'stepping stones' and not the goal. So yes, Buddhism, as originally taught, acknowledged the human potential for experiencing long lasting blissful states without any external triggers (such as sex or drugs), and saw some benefit in exploring them and learning from them, but very explicitly indicated that they were not the main point of the whole enterprise.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
‘Buddhism’ isn’t necessary to have some insight into the comedy of desire. The opening of one of the most famous classic books: “Tom Sawyer”; I believe opens with the chapter, with the story of painting the fence, which is all about this. Mark Twain and all satirists for that matter, have plenty of detachment, it’s not some evil plot to subvert ‘self esteem’.
|
mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
|
Re: Desire [Re: sudly]
#23505223 - 08/03/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
zzripz said: all the Buddha spin about the going beyond desire is total BS. For that is all about desiring non-attachment for 'everlasting bliss'
I believe your use of a stereo typed, sound byte view, of 'Buddhism' has been corrected before. But apparently having a 'straw man' argument serves your purpose. Then again I suppose it is a common misunderstanding or cliche, so anyone lacking real curiosity is prone to this error. But, in case anyone might want a more objective view they might consider that:
Many Vipassana teachers for example aren't into the jhanas, (deep meditative states), and don't teach them, because they fear they will create attachment to bliss in their students, as opposed to the more important goals of equanimity, morality/compassion, & insight.
The Zen literature is also full of references debunking your simplistic distortion. As well as the Buddhist sutras themselves. The jhanas apparently are considered by some teachers to be useful 'stepping stones' on the long path to learning meditation and understanding mental functioning and perception. But the point is always made that they are 'stepping stones' and not the goal. So yes, Buddhism, as originally taught, acknowledged the human potential for experiencing long lasting blissful states without any external triggers (such as sex or drugs), and saw some benefit in exploring them and learning from them, but very explicitly indicated that they were not the main point of the whole enterprise.
oh, so right. your trying to argue that the reason people put up with the discipline is not for a 'final goal' of 'everlasting bliss'?
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
mt cleverest said: Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.
the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23506011 - 08/03/16 02:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
from my experience in this life, I am never impressed with the 'most' vote. usually it takes a maverick to see through an oppressive blind conformist stance. Though there is more than one maverick who don't buy the Jesus myth, and from different levels too
start at 11:30:
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23507602 - 08/03/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said:
oh, so right. your trying to argue that the reason people put up with the discipline is not for a 'final goal' of 'everlasting bliss'? 
I am not trying to argue. I pointed out some facts anyone can verify who has the least curiosity. I suspect you are intelligent, but are simply uninformed on this subject. To think that a sharp or sarcastic sort of point on an internet forum, will convince someone you are right, and thus save you the trouble of seeing if I've got my facts right, because perhaps you can look good or seem to win, is actually to sell yourself short.
In any case the whole business is of course paradoxical. As Roshis themselves say, "The self that wants to be enlightened is the self that will be destroyed by enlightenment." And: "there are no bathrooms in heaven". etc etc ... The students would have to be pretty dumb to take your view, in the face of such constant reminders. Of course you are right that the human tendency is always to hope one can have one's cake and eat it too.
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.
But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.
It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.
Great post! There is so much substance there I could go on and on.
I notice, for example, often the excitement that attachment to desire creates when anticipating a vacation disappears or is greatly reduced when one is ON vacation (we complain about long lines at the airport)
I think the rush of excitement that desire can bring can reduce or totally cloud our awareness, as we are hooked on the excitement of desire (the object or event is secondary).
Children are super excited about Christmas for weeks, and then are quickly bored after opening gifts.
The excitement of desire is a really interesting topic. Like when we're on our way to score drugs, we're so jacked up and loaded it's unbelievable. Even before the chemical hits the brain.
Yeah, when we are angry, the LAST thing we want is to get a massage!
When we're angry we often seek people who will help to fuel our anger.
When we're angry we avoid people who would tell us we are over-reacting.
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz] 1
#23509541 - 08/04/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
mt cleverest said: Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.
the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them 
You've missed the point. The concepts connected to these characters are simply human ideas.
If Pythagoras didn't actually exist, would that make the equation meaningless?
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
mt cleverest said: Jesus was a man that killed desire like Buddha. Not my will but yours be done. This is the crucifixion of the ego aka enlightenment.
the comedy of this is that there exists no historical evidence for either of them 
You've missed the point. The concepts connected to these characters are simply human ideas.
If Pythagoras didn't actually exist, would that make the equation meaningless?
maybe you can workout for yourself if the equation works whereas can the same be said for 'physical resurrection'?
|
beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23510156 - 08/04/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Nirvana is wholeness. Wholeness is achieved through simply stopping the pretense that you aren't whole. You are one with what your body-mind is doing and the environment is doing it also, they are all the same thing, they are not "happening to you." So just pay attention, that's about the gist of it.
It's not difficult and if it is there are other issues, like brain disorders, dysfunctions, physical injuries, physical health issues ... lifestyle problems ie. non-appealing hobbies and psychological problems ie. habit of dreaming and not paying attention.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
what do you mean by 'brain disorder'?
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.
But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.
It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.
Great post! There is so much substance there I could go on and on.
I notice, for example, often the excitement that attachment to desire creates when anticipating a vacation disappears or is greatly reduced when one is ON vacation (we complain about long lines at the airport)
I think the rush of excitement that desire can bring can reduce or totally cloud our awareness, as we are hooked on the excitement of desire (the object or event is secondary).
Children are super excited about Christmas for weeks, and then are quickly bored after opening gifts.
The excitement of desire is a really interesting topic. Like when we're on our way to score drugs, we're so jacked up and loaded it's unbelievable. Even before the chemical hits the brain.
Yeah, when we are angry, the LAST thing we want is to get a massage!
When we're angry we often seek people who will help to fuel our anger.
When we're angry we avoid people who would tell us we are over-reacting.
Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?
Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
|
|
Quote:
PaulyAnna said: Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?
Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?
Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?
Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?
Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?
I will attempt to answer this in full -
Yes, yes, probably not, yes, sometimes, no, probably not, no, except for the 2nd, 3rd and 5th things in which case probably sometimes, usually, probably not and probably not.
Happy? Or did you desire more? If so, did the desire come from either:
a) heart b) face c) brain d) rectum e) universe
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
I think in Buddhism the word we are using: ‘desire’ , is often translated as 'craving'. Which I think gets subdivided: firstly into: attraction / grasping / expansion / etc and secondly the other polarity: rejecting / aversion / avoiding / contracting / etc and then a third category neutral.
It seems the idea is that partly, not only do we compulsively label our experience (as in: "That's a dog") but we also classify things as desirable (to ourselves) or undesirable, and that this pretty much happens with all perception automatically and unconsciously. If it becomes conscious we may say: "that's a beautiful dog" or "that's a dirty dog". The fact that we do this automatically means we tend not to experience life as directly, as we did when we were little children. A small child will run up and embrace a dog bigger than itself with no reservation, while the adult world is 'grayer' and tenser. As regards the third category, because we classify it as neutral, we do not believe it to have benefit or harmful potential so we tend to ignore it. It may not be till a person meditates that they become aware of the feeling of their clothes touching skin. Once again self-view has narrowed our experience by ignoring much of it.
So 'craving' does not exactly correspond to a christian idea that lust is evil, but is rather pointing out that in the process of growing up and acquiring, identity, habits, beliefs, and so on; that we have narrowed our world so much as to be out of touch with much of the richness of life. We must acquire identity to function in society, but it comes at great cost.
The effort of constantly trying to preserve / protect self by accumulating and avoiding, is a form of unconscious tension or suffering, - accepting ‘what is’, ‘as it is’, is relaxing by comparison. Resisting a pain does not make it go away, it just adds tension. Often when resistance is given up, and a person allows themselves to experience, what they had called “a bad pain”, it is discovered that actually there are a whole constellation of sensations of twinges, pulsing, pressure, etc. and that they move and change in intensity and come and go and so on, before eventually subsiding.
So what we have been referring to as ‘desire’ is in a larger sense, the attempt to constantly control life, that is often incessant, often manifesting as compulsive thought, even when nothing is happening and there is an opportunity to rest. Cleary that is another form of stress or undesirable consequence. Indeed a paradoxical consequence of attempting to get what one thinks one wants, is that it often causes the opposite. Yet Buddhism is often thought to be a mystical, depressing, or otherworldly philosophy; when as we have seen much of it is common sense.
Some think that meditation and Buddhism are all about attaining some permanent state of bliss, but if we consider that in a fight, to think, is often to be defeated or killed, we realize that training the mind is universally recognized to be of value in athletics where it is called ‘being “in the zone” ‘. This is not the form of mind training we call education (or absorbing facts and learning to reason), but the training of awareness and concentration. Thus we find Shaolin monks, and Samurai warriors, meditating, who are not ‘bliss bunnies’, by any stretch of the imagination.
So once again we find that thinking about what we want is detrimental. In this case, part of the fault, is that it always takes one out of full contact with ‘the present moment’.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Wonderful post, laughingdog.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
|
That reminds me of the story of the zen monk and the warrior...
Quote:
A big, tough samurai once went to see a little monk. "Monk!" He barked, in a voice accustomed to instant obedience. "Teach me about heaven and hell!"
The monk looked up at the mighty warrior and replied with utter disdain,"Teach you about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're dumb. You're dirty. You're a disgrace, an embarrassment to the samurai class. Get out of my sight. I can't stand you."
The samurai got furious. He shook, red in the face, speechless with rage. He pulled out his sword, and prepared to slay the monk.
Looking straight into the samurai's eyes, the monk said softly,"That's hell."
The samurai froze, realizing the compassion of the monk who had risked his life to show him hell! He put down his sword and fell to his knees, filled with gratitude.
The monk said softly, "And that's heaven."
Our emotions and thoughts literally have the power to transform our experience. Desire can be so egoic, like you pointed out, that it has the unfortunate side effect of casting a shadow (or too bright a light) on whatever we are experiencing.
--------------------
full blown human
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
Quote:
PaulyAnna said:
Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?
Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.
If I become attached to a desire for a fat line of coke or a slice of apple pie or a beautiful woman, attachment to desire is the same.
It is our choice, to board the train of desire. We can watch desire go by, or we can jump on the train.
That said, I think desires that connect us with others are healthier than those with drugs or food etc.
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
A small child will run up and embrace a dog bigger than itself with no reservation, while the adult world is 'grayer' and tenser.
Which can get a child attacked and even killed, and this has happened! Rather someone more mature is aware of that danger. That is not being 'grayer' or 'tense' but having more experience and awareness.
Quote:
Some think that meditation and Buddhism are all about attaining some permanent state of bliss, but if we consider that in a fight, to think, is often to be defeated or killed, we realize that training the mind is universally recognized to be of value in athletics where it is called ‘being “in the zone” ‘. This is not the form of mind training we call education (or absorbing facts and learning to reason), but the training of awareness and concentration. Thus we find Shaolin monks, and Samurai warriors, meditating, who are not ‘bliss bunnies’, by any stretch of the imagination.
does one have to become a monk, or warrior...? I don't think so, and hope not
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
Into The Woods said:
Quote:
PaulyAnna said: Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?
Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?
Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?
Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?
Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?
I will attempt to answer this in full -
Yes, yes, probably not, yes, sometimes, no, probably not, no, except for the 2nd, 3rd and 5th things in which case probably sometimes, usually, probably not and probably not.
Happy? Or did you desire more? If so, did the desire come from either:
a) heart b) face c) brain d) rectum e) universe
I desire for you to expound more.
heart - to get to the essence brain - to know and understand universe - to experience
Quote:
laughingdog said: So once again we find that thinking about what we want is detrimental. In this case, part of the fault, is that it always takes one out of full contact with ‘the present moment’.
I wholly agree with this. Being in the zone / the present moment is where it's at. Yet it seems challenging to get there and much more difficult to stay there.
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
PaulyAnna said:
Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?
Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.
If I become attached to a desire for a fat line of coke or a slice of apple pie or a beautiful woman, attachment to desire is the same.
It is our choice, to board the train of desire. We can watch desire go by, or we can jump on the train.
That said, I think desires that connect us with others are healthier than those with drugs or food etc.
Better example to explain what I mean, and you helped to bring it out by mentioning coke / drugs:
I'm attached to a desire to use DMT, eventually. I don't think about it that often, but nonetheless the desire resurfaces.
But I know I'm not attached to DMT, maybe because I haven't used it. If I had, maybe maybe not. . . that's not the issue though.
Issue is, whether healthier or not, can we abide in awareness, have desire and not be attached to the thing desired?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
|
|
I guess desire is refreshing while attachment is sticky business:
while waiting for your package arrival (desire) attachment can set in (like waiting harder, or being fixed) it becomes harder to leave your seat
but attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance or even just too much curiosity about a thing or problem the habit locks in it becomes harder to leave your seat
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
PaulyAnna



Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I guess desire is refreshing while attachment is sticky business:
while waiting for your package arrival (desire) attachment can set in (like waiting harder, or being fixed) it becomes harder to leave your seat
but attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance or even just too much curiosity about a thing or problem the habit locks in it becomes harder to leave your seat
It looks like suffering experienced, to some extent, could be a litmus test?
-------------------- Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
. . . attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance . . .
I really like the term "sticky" as it so well describes some thoughts!
Yeah, aversion can be as just as sticky as attraction, or even more.
We often become attached to our loathing and disgust of others. And/or our self.
Anytime we think, "I hate to _____" (insert your aversion... do the dishes, laundry, etc) we're just as attached to that thought as when we passionately want something.
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
. . . attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance . . .
I really like the term "sticky" as it so well describes some thoughts!
Yeah, aversion can be as just as sticky as attraction, or even more.
We often become attached to our loathing and disgust of others. And/or our self.
Anytime we think, "I hate to _____" (insert your aversion... do the dishes, laundry, etc) we're just as attached to that thought as when we passionately want something.
it is lack of creativity. Example, you can actually have fun doing the washing up if you are aware of eg the patterns of water, bubbles of the soap, listen to music and/or sing when doing it etc--PLAYFUL. You can get this insight from psychedelic experience where the 'ordinary' becomes magically transformed into extraordinary
|
RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
#23522668 - 08/08/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Good point. It's all about perspective, and taking things lightly.
If we hate waiting in long lines or heavy traffic.
Or if we hate a coworker, or a political party.
Attachment to our hates and desires is optional.
|
|