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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisiblePaulyAnna
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Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23512380 - 08/05/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
a funny thing about things we desire or want or that we think give us pleasure is that they all depend on awareness, which we usually ignore while we focus for example, on the chocolate, or new camera, or whatever.

But if we are distracted or worrying, we don't enjoy the delicious food, even when it is in our mouths. So actually the pleasure experienced is contingent on the quality of awareness, which is not a simple on or off phenomenon.

It's not just distraction that effects awareness. Some people think anger is empowering, but the idea of enjoying a massage while angry is so contradictory it's funny. So once again actually enjoying an object is contingent on many factors, not just possession and consumption. But we tend to fixate on the object(s), and loose perspective.




Great post! There is so much substance there I could go on and on.

I notice, for example, often the excitement that attachment to desire creates when
anticipating a vacation disappears or is greatly reduced when one is ON vacation
(we complain about long lines at the airport)

I think the rush of excitement that desire can bring can reduce or totally cloud our awareness,
as we are hooked on the excitement of desire (the object or event is secondary).

Children are super excited about Christmas for weeks, and then are quickly bored after opening gifts.

The excitement of desire is a really interesting topic. Like when we're on our way to
score drugs, we're so jacked up and loaded it's unbelievable. Even before the chemical hits the brain.

Yeah, when we are angry, the LAST thing we want is to get a massage!

When we're angry we often seek people who will help to fuel our anger.

When we're angry we avoid people who would tell us we are over-reacting.



Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?

Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.


--------------------
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be


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InvisibleInto The Woods
Quarantine King
Male

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
Re: Desire [Re: PaulyAnna]
    #23513076 - 08/05/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PaulyAnna said:
Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?

Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?

Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?

Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?

Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?




I will attempt to answer this in full -

Yes, yes, probably not, yes, sometimes, no, probably not, no, except for the 2nd, 3rd and 5th things in which case probably sometimes, usually, probably not and probably not.

Happy? Or did you desire more? If so, did the desire come from either:

a) heart
b) face
c) brain
d) rectum
e) universe


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Desire [Re: Into The Woods] * 3
    #23514368 - 08/05/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think in Buddhism the word we are using: ‘desire’ , is often translated as 'craving'.
Which I think gets subdivided:
firstly into: attraction / grasping / expansion / etc
and secondly the other polarity:
rejecting / aversion / avoiding / contracting / etc
and then a third category
neutral.

It seems the idea is that partly, not only do we compulsively label our experience (as in: "That's a dog")
but we also classify things as desirable (to ourselves) or undesirable,
and that this pretty much happens with all perception automatically and unconsciously. If it becomes conscious we may say: "that's a beautiful dog" or "that's a dirty dog". The fact that we do this automatically means we tend not to experience life as directly, as we did when we were little children. A small child will run up and embrace a dog bigger than itself with no reservation, while the adult world is 'grayer' and tenser.
As regards the third category, because we classify it as neutral, we do not believe it to have benefit or harmful potential so we tend to ignore it. It may not be till a person meditates that they become aware of the feeling of their clothes touching skin. Once again self-view has narrowed our experience by ignoring much of it.

So 'craving' does not exactly correspond to a christian idea that lust is evil, but is rather pointing out that in the process of growing up and acquiring, identity, habits, beliefs, and so on; that we have narrowed our world so much as to be out of touch with much of the richness of life. We must acquire identity to function in society, but it comes at great cost.

The effort of constantly trying to preserve / protect self by accumulating and avoiding, is a form of unconscious tension or suffering, - accepting ‘what is’, ‘as it is’, is relaxing by comparison. Resisting a pain does not make it go away, it just adds tension. Often when resistance is given up, and a person allows themselves to experience, what they had called “a bad pain”,  it is discovered that actually there are a whole constellation of sensations of twinges, pulsing, pressure, etc. and that they move and change in intensity and come and go and so on, before eventually subsiding.

So what we have been referring to as ‘desire’ is in a larger sense, the attempt to constantly control life, that is often incessant, often manifesting as compulsive thought, even when nothing is happening and there is an opportunity to rest. Cleary that is another form of stress or undesirable consequence. Indeed a paradoxical consequence of attempting to get what one thinks one wants, is that it often causes the opposite. Yet Buddhism is often thought to be a mystical, depressing, or otherworldly philosophy; when as we have seen much of it is common sense.

Some think that meditation and Buddhism are all about attaining some permanent state of bliss, but if we consider that in a fight, to think, is often to be defeated or killed, we realize that training the mind is universally recognized to be of value in athletics where it is called ‘being “in the zone” ‘.
This is not the form of mind training we call education (or absorbing facts and learning to reason), but the training of awareness and concentration. Thus we find Shaolin monks, and Samurai warriors, meditating, who are not ‘bliss bunnies’, by any stretch of the imagination.

So once again we find that thinking about what we want is detrimental. In this case, part of the fault, is that it always takes one out of full contact with ‘the present moment’.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23514441 - 08/05/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Wonderful post, laughingdog. :peace:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23514477 - 08/05/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That reminds me of the story of the zen monk and the warrior...

Quote:

A big, tough samurai once went to see a little monk. "Monk!" He barked, in a voice accustomed to instant obedience. "Teach me about heaven and hell!"

The monk looked up at the mighty warrior and replied with utter disdain,"Teach you about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're dumb. You're dirty. You're a disgrace, an embarrassment to the samurai class. Get out of my sight. I can't stand you."

The samurai got furious. He shook, red in the face, speechless with rage. He pulled out his sword, and prepared to slay the monk.

Looking straight into the samurai's eyes, the monk said softly,"That's hell."

The samurai froze, realizing the compassion of the monk who had risked his life to show him hell! He put down his sword and fell to his knees, filled with gratitude.

The monk said softly, "And that's heaven."





Our emotions and thoughts literally have the power to transform our experience. Desire can be so egoic, like you pointed out, that it has the unfortunate side effect of casting a shadow (or too bright a light) on whatever we are experiencing.


--------------------
full blown human


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 3 minutes
Re: Desire [Re: PaulyAnna]
    #23514786 - 08/06/16 12:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PaulyAnna said:

Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?

Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.




If I become attached to a desire for a fat line of coke or a slice of apple pie or a beautiful woman, attachment to desire is the same.

It is our choice, to board the train of desire. We can watch desire go by, or we can jump on the train.

That said, I think desires that connect us with others are healthier than those with drugs or food etc.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Desire [Re: laughingdog]
    #23515090 - 08/06/16 04:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A small child will run up and embrace a dog bigger than itself with no reservation, while the adult world is 'grayer' and tenser.




Which can get a child attacked and even killed, and this has happened! Rather someone more mature is aware of that danger. That is not being 'grayer' or 'tense' but having more experience and awareness.

Quote:


Some think that meditation and Buddhism are all about attaining some permanent state of bliss, but if we consider that in a fight, to think, is often to be defeated or killed, we realize that training the mind is universally recognized to be of value in athletics where it is called ‘being “in the zone” ‘.
This is not the form of mind training we call education (or absorbing facts and learning to reason), but the training of awareness and concentration. Thus we find Shaolin monks, and Samurai warriors, meditating, who are not ‘bliss bunnies’, by any stretch of the imagination.




does one have to become a monk, or warrior...? I don't think so, and hope not


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InvisiblePaulyAnna
Male


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23515140 - 08/06/16 05:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Into The Woods said:
Quote:

PaulyAnna said:
Where does is come from? Internally? Externally? Some other unknown dimension/vibration?

Who does it come from? Self? Higher/over self? Source? God? Christ/cosmic consciousness?

Does fate, determinism, free will, karma, or another philosophy come into play with any, all, or none of the above questions?

Other than the very basic and essential desire for things of survival, is desire for things (seen and unseen) eventually accompanied by sorrow for the desire: 1) not being fulfilled, 2) being fulfilled but discontented, 3) being fulfilled but taken away?

Is Nirvana really possible? Is it experienced increasingly? Or unobtainable but should ideally be sought out and strived for?




I will attempt to answer this in full -

Yes, yes, probably not, yes, sometimes, no, probably not, no, except for the 2nd, 3rd and 5th things in which case probably sometimes, usually, probably not and probably not.

Happy? Or did you desire more? If so, did the desire come from either:

a) heart
b) face
c) brain
d) rectum
e) universe



I desire for you to expound more.

heart - to get to the essence
brain - to know and understand
universe - to experience



Quote:

laughingdog said:
So once again we find that thinking about what we want is detrimental. In this case, part of the fault, is that it always takes one out of full contact with ‘the present moment’.



I wholly agree with this. Being in the zone / the present moment is where it's at. Yet it seems challenging to get there and much more difficult to stay there.



Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

PaulyAnna said:

Is there a difference between attachment to desire and attachment to the thing desired?

Attachment to the things eventually disappoint and wane.




If I become attached to a desire for a fat line of coke or a slice of apple pie or a beautiful woman, attachment to desire is the same.

It is our choice, to board the train of desire. We can watch desire go by, or we can jump on the train.

That said, I think desires that connect us with others are healthier than those with drugs or food etc.



Better example to explain what I mean, and you helped to bring it out by mentioning coke / drugs:

I'm attached to a desire to use DMT, eventually. I don't think about it that often,  but nonetheless the desire resurfaces.

But I know I'm not attached to DMT, maybe because I haven't used it. If I had, maybe maybe not. . . that's not the issue though.

Issue is, whether healthier or not, can we abide in awareness, have desire and not be attached to the thing desired?


--------------------
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Desire [Re: PaulyAnna]
    #23515149 - 08/06/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I guess desire is refreshing while attachment is sticky business:

while waiting for your package arrival (desire)
attachment can set in (like waiting harder, or being fixed)
it becomes harder to leave your seat

but attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance or even just too much curiosity about a thing or problem
the habit locks in
it becomes harder to leave your seat


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisiblePaulyAnna
Male


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 200
Re: Desire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23515174 - 08/06/16 06:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I guess desire is refreshing while attachment is sticky business:

while waiting for your package arrival (desire)
attachment can set in (like waiting harder, or being fixed)
it becomes harder to leave your seat

but attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance or even just too much curiosity about a thing or problem
the habit locks in
it becomes harder to leave your seat




It looks like suffering experienced, to some extent, could be a litmus test?


--------------------
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 3 minutes
Re: Desire [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23515358 - 08/06/16 08:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

. . . attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance . . .




I really like the term "sticky" as it so well describes some thoughts!

Yeah, aversion can be as just as sticky as attraction, or even more.

We often become attached to our loathing and disgust of others. And/or our self.

Anytime we think, "I hate to _____" (insert your aversion... do the dishes, laundry, etc)
we're just as attached to that thought as when we passionately want something.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Desire [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23515794 - 08/06/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

. . . attachment or stickiness will happen around issues that do not connect with desire, it can be in avoidance . . .




I really like the term "sticky" as it so well describes some thoughts!

Yeah, aversion can be as just as sticky as attraction, or even more.

We often become attached to our loathing and disgust of others. And/or our self.

Anytime we think, "I hate to _____" (insert your aversion... do the dishes, laundry, etc)
we're just as attached to that thought as when we passionately want something.




it is lack of creativity. Example, you can actually have fun doing the washing up if you are aware of eg the patterns of water, bubbles of the soap, listen to music and/or sing when doing it etc--PLAYFUL. You can get this insight from psychedelic experience where the 'ordinary' becomes magically transformed into extraordinary


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 3 minutes
Re: Desire [Re: zzripz]
    #23522668 - 08/08/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good point. It's all about perspective, and taking things lightly.

If we hate waiting in long lines or heavy traffic.

Or if we hate a coworker, or a political party.

Attachment to our hates and desires is optional.


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