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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Hillary wants us to hate on Russia * 3
    #23496173 - 07/31/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm really getting sick of how hard Hillary is trying to get us all to hate on Russia so that we oppose Trump, who might actually be making progress to restore relations with them.

That's not to say I'm a Trump fan, but I tremendously dislike Hillary's hawkishness.  She's very dangerous when it comes to international affairs.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23496216 - 07/31/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know man. I think we should talk to those we don't agree with instead of shunning them.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Patlal]
    #23496319 - 07/31/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Our media did not covered these stories, just as they did not covered the world wide march against monsanto that has been annually done every year.



The United States is threatening nations who oppose Monsanto’s genetically modified (GM) crops with military-style trade wars, according to information obtained and released by the organization WikiLeaks. Nations like France, which have moved to ban one of Monsanto’s GM corn varieties, were requested to be ‘penalized’ by the United States for opposing Monsanto and genetically modified foods. The information reveals just how deep Monsanto’s roots have penetrated key positions within the United States government, with the cables reporting that many U.S. diplomats work directly for Monsanto.

The WikiLeaks cable reveals that in late 2007, the United States ambassador to France and business partner to George W. Bush, Craig Stapleton, requested that the European Union along with particular nations that did not support GMO crops be penalized. Stapleton, who co-owned the Dallas/Fort Worth-based Texas Rangers baseball team with Bush in the 1990s, stated:  http://naturalsociety.com/us-start-trade-wars-with-nations-opposed-to-monsanto-gmo-crops/

http://www.infowars.com/leaked-us-to-start-%E2%80%98trade-wars%E2%80%99-with-nations-opposed-to-monsanto-gmo-crops/

The shocking minutes relating to President Putin’s meeting this past week with US Secretary of State John Kerry reveal the Russian leaders “extreme outrage” over the Obama regimes continued protection of global seed and plant bio-genetic giants Syngenta and Monsanto in the face of a growing “bee apocalypse” that the Kremlin warns “will most certainly” lead to world war. http://www.eutimes.net/2013/05/russia-warns-obama-global-war-over-bee-apocalypse-coming-soon/




PUTIN SAYS RUSSIA WILL BE WORLD’S #1 EXPORTER OF NON-GMO FOODS http://www.infowars.com/putin-says-russia-will-be-worlds-1-exporter-of-non-gmo-foods/


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23513794 - 08/05/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Russia Expert Stephen Cohen: Trump Wants To Stop The New Cold War, But The American Media Just Doesn't Understand http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/07/30/russia_expert_stephen_cohen_trump_wants_to_stop_the_new_cold_war_but_the_america_media_just_doesnt_understand.html


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23514147 - 08/05/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:awesomenod:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23514169 - 08/05/16 08:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:presidential:


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welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23517241 - 08/06/16 10:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

She keeps trying to scare everyone into thinking Trump will recklessly start a war when she's the one who's supported virtually every war and military operation since the 80's. I'm actually far more worried about her continuing to needlessly prod and provoke Russia - a country who isn't our enemy. And the media, as usual, isn't questioning it. Just like they went along with the buildup to the Iraq war when many of us could see it was bs.

Hillary is a warmonger. Plain and simple. She's in the tank for the banks. Bankers make more off of one day of war than they do from one year of peace. And they often bankroll both sides.

The democrat party used to be for working people, freedom of speech, and anti-war.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: zorbman]
    #23518871 - 08/07/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hillary is not really a liberal at all.  She has said herself she comes from a conservative family.  Her life experience yells staunchly conservative.  I am not even sure bill ever brought her to orgasim with his all the starfish sex they have.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23519062 - 08/07/16 02:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The Iranians are good people now, since they accepted monsanto's gmo foods. And that is what Russia has to do if they want to be back friends with the U.S. If they do, then they can get what ever they want like the 400 millions American's tax dollars that the Iranians received.


Iran Imports $5 Billion Worth of Genetically Modified Crops Despite Restrictions http://www.fooddemocracynow.org/blog/2015/jul/6-1






Russia bans Import and Production of GMO Food, tightens Non-Food GMO Restrictions http://nsnbc.me/2014/04/06/russia-bans-import-production-gmo-food-tightens-non-food-gmo-restrictions/




But she needs help...



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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23519812 - 08/07/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Hillary is not really a liberal at all.  'She has said herself[/b]" she comes from a conservative family.  Her life experience yells staunchly conservative.  I am not even sure bill ever brought her to orgasim with his all the starfish sex they have.




'she said herself'


And you believed her?????????  :huxleyfacepalm:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23519856 - 08/07/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that she believes she identifies with conservative views which people associate with moral.  Since why is moral repressing?

Answer is because we do not know but it is "safe for now" to repress so maybe later we can get to that.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23532772 - 08/11/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23533384 - 08/12/16 12:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Hillary is not really a liberal at all.  She has said herself she comes from a conservative family.  Her life experience yells staunchly conservative.  I am not even sure bill ever brought her to orgasim with his all the starfish sex they have.




Yeah, she's actually considered by most a centrist like Bill was.


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Offlinelines
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Le_Canard]
    #23556711 - 08/19/16 12:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Whether she is conservative or not has nothing to do with her Russophobia. The oligarchs who own the democrats and republicans are very Russophobic, the democrats and republicans are political prostitutes hired by the same people who control the government-media complex.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: lines]
    #23557137 - 08/19/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Whether she is conservative or not has nothing to do with her Russophobia. The oligarchs who own the democrats and republicans are very Russophobic, the democrats and republicans are political prostitutes hired by the same people who control the government-media complex.




But Trump is outside of the box. That is why nobody wants to play with him. Hillary has said nice things about Cruz, a Republican. And the both of them had team up together to help get rid of Trump. And which that shows that Trump is not one of them. You see that Bernie has spoken highly of Hillary but not Jill or Gary, eventhough she had tricked him. But Trump stands alone, by himself.


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OfflineMaroon
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: lines]
    #23557146 - 08/19/16 02:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Whether she is conservative or not has nothing to do with her Russophobia. The oligarchs who own the democrats and republicans are very Russophobic, the democrats and republicans are political prostitutes hired by the same people who control the government-media complex.





Sounds fairly accurate


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UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: lines]
    #23558324 - 08/19/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Whether she is conservative or not has nothing to do with her Russophobia. The oligarchs who own the democrats and republicans are very Russophobic, the democrats and republicans are political prostitutes hired by the same people who control the government-media complex.




Speak


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblespock
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23558450 - 08/19/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Should we just let Vladimir take what he wants without consequence? Hillary wants us to stick up for our friends. This view of a kinder, warmer and fuzzier Putin is naive. Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days. Taking Crimea was not cool and puts world stability in danger. It was illegal. Not sticking up for friends is weak. 

Peace
Spock


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23558539 - 08/19/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Sticking up for friends is what has got us into every war democrats vote for, then oppose and blame on republicans


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Invisiblespock
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23558588 - 08/19/16 10:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Iraq, the sequel and Afghanistan were not started because of sticking up for friends.


Peace
Spock


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23558693 - 08/19/16 11:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The first Iraq war? Lemme guess, war for oil? If your friend has oil, should you just ignore them?

Quote:

spock said:
Should we just let Vladimir take what he wants without consequence? Hillary wants us to stick up for our friends. This view of a kinder, warmer and fuzzier Putin is naive. Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days. Taking Crimea was not cool and puts world stability in danger. It was illegal. Not sticking up for friends is weak. 

Peace
Spock




--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23558820 - 08/20/16 12:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Should we just let Vladimir take what he wants without consequence?



Of course not.  Should Vladimir just let the US take what we want without consequence?

Here's a VERY short summary of the situation, because I think very few people (besides Trump) understand it:


Crimea had been a Russian territory since 1783, until Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine without the approval of the Crimean people.  Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always remained under Russian control through today.

In 2014, there were a series of violent events in Ukraine culminating in the coup of Ukraine’s democratically elected President.

The US (as usual after coups) was quick to back the new leader who was pro-US and anti-Russian, and there is evidence the US helped orchestrate the coup,  while Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine (especially the Donbass region) and Crimea wanted nothing to do with the undemocratic Government and wanted to separate.

Crimea held a referendum, and overwhelmingly voted to return to Russia.  Russia accepted Crimea back; however, Donbass stayed with Ukraine.

There were no military casualties in Crimea, as the people there wanted to rejoin Russia, but there was (and still is) a great deal of conflict in Donbass between Western Ukraine and the Russian separatists.

Russia’s naval base in Crimea has great significance to both the US and Russia, as it is Russia’s only warm water naval port.  The US wants Crimea to return to Ukraine, and wants to make Ukraine part of NATO in violation of an earlier promise made not to expand NATO beyond Germany.  Meanwhile, Russia believes coups shouldn’t be recognized, and the Crimean people have a right to vote for their own leadership.

Quote:

spock said:
Hillary wants us to stick up for our friends. This view of a kinder, warmer and fuzzier Putin is naive.



Hillary doesn't care one bit about the Ukrainian people, whose lives are now going to shit.  Her goal is to take Russia's only warm water port away from them and give it to NATO.

Quote:

spock said:
Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days.



Putin wants a return to Communism?  I'd love to see your evidence for that.

Quote:

spock said:
Taking Crimea was not cool and puts world stability in danger. It was illegal. Not sticking up for friends is weak.



Taking Ukraine through a coup was not cool and puts world stability in danger.  It was illegal.  Not sticking up for democracy is weak.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23558900 - 08/20/16 12:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The Democrats knows what they are doing. They are trying to infiltrate as many of radical Muslims into other countries so that the countries that they has infiltrated has become torn down. Like in Nigeria, the north Nigerians are wanting to become an Islamic country (I wonder how that happen). But the south are more of a Christian country. But The north has the oil wells. But the south has the refineries. And so the north doesn't wants to send their oil to have it refine at the southern part of the country, but send their oil over here to have it refined. But our politicians just stay out of their business and let the northern Nigerians keep on sending their oil over here to be refine and we get some of the oil for a real good deal; but the northern Nigerians are losing out because they are not getting the whole value of it. They has to pay expenses to have the oil ship it to and fro, and refinery charges. But the U.S. sees all this, that the two countries are separating like Kuwait separating from Iraq, and they love it. Because we are getting the oil for a cheap price. We need to go Green.

They are trying to spread out these radical Islamic followers to bring in fear to other countries and ours so that these countries and us will be needing security equipment. And which one of the member of Shark Tank has his own security company and he is a friend of Mark Cuban, whom endorses hillary.


Do anyone knows what has happened to Somalia after they has become an Islamic country?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23559321 - 08/20/16 07:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

^ you think the lesser warhawk party is solely responsible for the strategy of tension weve been employing on the Islamic world for over 75 years?


Correction: The people who own Hillary, and the rest of our government, want us to hate on Russia. The people who own our government want unrest wherever possible to further an agenda.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23559350 - 08/20/16 08:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23559553 - 08/20/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ you think the lesser warhawk party is solely responsible for the strategy of tension weve been employing on the Islamic world for over 75 years?


Correction: The people who own Hillary, and the rest of our government, want us to hate on Russia. The people who own our government want unrest wherever possible to further an agenda.




And so we should let them bring more of them into this country, to settle down and grow until they decides that they want the rules to their religion becomes rules to all religions. Then we all has to have security equipment, but without any guns because the government had took them all. And so now we totally depends on the help from our government (Because we are so sickly like hillary from eating too much GMO"S) to protect us while they are watching us and all the little children while taking a bath or taking a crap on the toilet through our security cameras that we need them at all times to surveillance our every movement, to make sure that no radical Muslim is not going to Jihad us to death unexpectedly. But really they are only going surveillance the homes of the ones that look appealing while being naked. But we cannot complain when the government decides to raise the price up on surveillance, if we don't pay, they just cut them off and let them suffer it out in the dark, alone without any protection at all, not even having a handgun. Do you know if you own a business, that if you stay open at a certain time, that the police recommend that you pay them more money to patrol your establishment more often on each shift?  If you don't pay, well you have to pray that no one will be coming to rob your establishment. But if the crime rate has risen a lot in your area, then you will be glad to pay them and some. There are a lot of angry people that were picked on by the police department, that they do not care anymore. Business owners will be glad to pay whatever they has to offer. The Mobs use to do that in the early years. That they will stage someone to muscle the business owners up so that they will have to pay them for protection. I wonder how much they charges to protect these businesses from radical extremists.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23559578 - 08/20/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:wtf: :tinfoil: :cuckoo:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23559603 - 08/20/16 10:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:wtf: :tinfoil: :cuckoo:




Well they has once said that about a great man, Trump. That he did not know what he was talking about. But is was found to be true.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23559697 - 08/20/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's easy to prove Trump wrong, because he's constantly contradicting himself.  You can hear him say one thing about something, and then the opposite about that same thing.

Is Trump for or against legal abortion?
Is Trump for or against pot legalization?
Is Trump for or against an assault weapons ban?
Is Trump for or against tax cuts for the rich?
Is Trump for or against gay marriage?

He occasionally gets some things right, such as TPP and Russia, but he's generally a lying idiot.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23559840 - 08/20/16 12:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The funniest thing about his flip flopping is how his supporters cherrypick the stuff they like and disregard everything else.

Trump: "im against abortion"

Trump supporter for abortion: "hes just saying that to get the pro life vote."


Trump: "im for abortion"

Trump supporter against abortion: "hes just saying that to get to get the pro choice vote."


Id say half of his supporters are gonna be severely disappointed, but considering he has no shot in the electoral math, its more like 100%


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23559882 - 08/20/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's a strategy that seems to work with Trump followers, as we've seen in the Political Forum.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblespock
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23560320 - 08/20/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
The first Iraq war? Lemme guess, war for oil? If your friend has oil, should you just ignore them?

Quote:

spock said:
Should we just let Vladimir take what he wants without consequence? Hillary wants us to stick up for our friends. This view of a kinder, warmer and fuzzier Putin is naive. Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days. Taking Crimea was not cool and puts world stability in danger. It was illegal. Not sticking up for friends is weak. 

Peace
Spock







The first Iraq war was sticking up for friends. And I give Bush credit for going in, getting the Iraqis out of Kuwait and then us getting out. He could have marched on Baghdad but chose not to. As far as Reps go, Bush sr should get more credit than he does. Raising taxes after the "read my lips" speech took balls to go against his supporters for the good of the country. There's a lot I don't agree with Bush sr but he was more of his own man than some US presidents. "Voodoo economics" is another example.

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23560347 - 08/20/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

spock said:

Quote:

spock said:
Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days.



Putin wants a return to Communism?  I'd love to see your evidence for that.
Quote:




He wants his empire back.

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23560353 - 08/20/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

"Raising taxes for the good of the country" is an oxymoron


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23560367 - 08/20/16 04:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
"Raising taxes for the good of the country" is an oxymoron




You Reps just want free stuff.lol

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23560375 - 08/20/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
"Raising taxes for the good of the country" is an oxymoron




You Reps just want free stuff.lol

Peace
Spock




Touché


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23560437 - 08/20/16 04:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't care who likes/hate them. Fuck Russia. Fuck Russia up the ass. Russia is a backwards ass poor pathetic country run by a worthless dictator. Putin is a dictator and an ass.

We don't need to be friends with Russia. Their military is pathetic compared to ours, their economy is shit, and they produce absolutely nothing of artistic or intellectual value.

Fuck Russia.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23560603 - 08/20/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

spock said:
Should we just let Vladimir take what he wants without consequence?



Of course not.  Should Vladimir just let the US take what we want without consequence?

Here's a VERY short summary of the situation, because I think very few people (besides Trump) understand it:


Crimea had been a Russian territory since 1783, until Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine without the approval of the Crimean people.  Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always remained under Russian control through today.

In 2014, there were a series of violent events in Ukraine culminating in the coup of Ukraine’s democratically elected President.

The US (as usual after coups) was quick to back the new leader who was pro-US and anti-Russian, and there is evidence the US helped orchestrate the coup,  while Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine (especially the Donbass region) and Crimea wanted nothing to do with the undemocratic Government and wanted to separate.

Crimea held a referendum, and overwhelmingly voted to return to Russia.  Russia accepted Crimea back; however, Donbass stayed with Ukraine.

There were no military casualties in Crimea, as the people there wanted to rejoin Russia, but there was (and still is) a great deal of conflict in Donbass between Western Ukraine and the Russian separatists.

Russia’s naval base in Crimea has great significance to both the US and Russia, as it is Russia’s only warm water naval port.  The US wants Crimea to return to Ukraine, and wants to make Ukraine part of NATO in violation of an earlier promise made not to expand NATO beyond Germany.  Meanwhile, Russia believes coups shouldn’t be recognized, and the Crimean people have a right to vote for their own leadership.

Quote:

spock said:
Hillary wants us to stick up for our friends. This view of a kinder, warmer and fuzzier Putin is naive.



Hillary doesn't care one bit about the Ukrainian people, whose lives are now going to shit.  Her goal is to take Russia's only warm water port away from them and give it to NATO.

Quote:

spock said:
Taking Crimea was not cool and puts world stability in danger. It was illegal. Not sticking up for friends is weak.



Taking Ukraine through a coup was not cool and puts world stability in danger.  It was illegal.  Not sticking up for democracy is weak.

Quote:

spock said:
Putin is a KGB thug who longs for the good ole days.



Putin wants a return to Communism?  I'd love to see your evidence for that.



He wants his empire back.



I'd love to see your evidence that Putin wants "his empire back".  Remember, it was the US that orchestrated a coup in Ukraine to expand NATO and to try and take the Crimean naval base from Russia.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23560675 - 08/20/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #23560743 - 08/20/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
I don't care who likes/hate them. Fuck Russia. Fuck Russia up the ass. Russia is a backwards ass poor pathetic country run by a worthless dictator. Putin is a dictator and an ass.

We don't need to be friends with Russia. Their military is pathetic compared to ours, their economy is shit, and they produce absolutely nothing of artistic or intellectual value.

Fuck Russia.




Oh really?

I note Russia has put Assad firmly back in power despite the money and weapons the US gives Jihadist mercs (while claiming they're against ISIS). Perhaps that worked giving the Soviets their "Vietnam" in Afghanistan back in the 80's but it's not working now.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/356454-russia-isis-iran-us-airbase/

Before Vladimir Putin ordered Russian military intervention in Syria at the end of last September, the government of President Bashar Assad was on the ropes. Rebels and foreign-backed militants were threatening to topple Assad in accordance with the objective of regime change supported by Washington and its NATO allies, Britain and France, and partners across the region – Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel.

I note the Russians would give NATO a hammering. I wouldn't write the bear off as "pathetic."

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/report-russia-defeats-nato-in-baltic-war-game-1.392103

STUTTGART, Germany — A Russian offensive on NATO territory in the Baltics would overwhelm underarmed alliance forces in a matter of hours, leaving NATO with a harsh dilemma: Launch a long, bloody counteroffensive or concede defeat.

That is the conclusion of a new report by Rand Corp., which conducted a series of elaborate war games from summer 2014 to spring 2015 with the assistance of numerous American military commands and experts.


How do the Americans stack up to the Russians? News is not good.

https://cofda.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/u-s-repeatedly-loses-in-pentagon-war-games-against-russia/

U.S. repeatedly loses in Pentagon war games against Russia

The fact that U.S. repeatedly lost in the Pentagon’s own war games against Russia could explain why, according to a Sept. 25, 2015 article on the Russian news site, SvetKolemnas.Info, a “summary report of the Russian Ministry of Defense for the internal needs of the Kremlin” states that within three weeks after President Putin orders a “first strike” against America and its NATO allies, the military forces of the Russian Federation will achieve “a total defeat” of U.S. military forces, including:

The destruction of all 18 US aircraft carriers and ships capable of carrying aircraft, and of all US and NATO military satellites.
The strategic takeover of heavy weapons.
The “erasing” of all US bases in the UK.
The total loss of US and NATO troops of over 35,000 (dead, wounded, captured and missing), and material losses of at least 15 trillion dollars (ships, aircraft, weapons, etc.)


Are the Russians good at war? Well, they appear to be top of the class.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/701821/Russia-Olympics-medal-war-games-army-blast-Rio

Russia may be flopping in Rio but tops medal table at sinister wargames Olympics

Russia clinched 20 golds, with Kazakhstan winning two and China just one.

Nearly 20 countries joined in the international event hosted by the Russian Ministry of Defence, which was launched by President Vladimir Putin last year.


--------------------
Convert Metric and Imperial.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock] * 1
    #23560952 - 08/20/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

spock said:
He wants his empire back.



I'd love to see your evidence that Putin wants "his empire back".  Remember, it was the US that orchestrated a coup in Ukraine to expand NATO and to try and take the Crimean naval base from Russia.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-06/putin-s-military-buildup-in-the-baltic-stokes-invasion-fears



So because Russian ships have been spotted near Poland, that means Putin wants his empire back?  Did you know Russian ships HAVE to pass by Poland to get out of the Baltic Sea?



--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23561902 - 08/21/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It is written that Trump and Putin will join forces together and will defeat the Eastern ruler of ISIS.

list=PL9HaTZbu80Pdq4xAv3fHsks07428Hwbyo


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23563185 - 08/21/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-idUSKCN10W0EM

Interesting article regarding Crimea.

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23563323 - 08/21/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-idUSKCN10W0EM

Interesting article regarding Crimea.

Peace
Spock



Once we remove hillary and her disciples from preventing the prophesy, then everything will goes as plan. Right now she and her disciples is trying to claim that she is the glowing goddess that will save the world from destruction. But really she is the one that is trying to prevent it by getting rid of Trump and attacking Russia so that there will never be any peace in the world, and her donors can profit a lot from making weapons of massive destruction..


You cannot believe everything that you here. It only has been two years. Russia just barely became an 100% organic producers and which that means that they are going to be a lot of tourists visiting just to detox their body and mind. And there are going to be some that are going to be moving there when they retire, and which it will add to their economy. And especially, since they are going to have only organic foods, that tourists will be flying down there just for the weekend for the great sex because of their healthy bodies from putting good things into it.
But while over here, people will be partying like hillary on the weekends.




Ruble now ‘excessively’ strong - Russian Finance Minister https://www.rt.com/business/252769-ruble-too-strong-siluanov/


Edited by Douglas Howard (08/21/16 03:57 PM)


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23563352 - 08/21/16 04:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine.

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock] * 1
    #23563356 - 08/21/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Did
Quote:

spock said:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-idUSKCN10W0EM

Interesting article regarding Crimea.



Did you know that this is the result of a Western embargo against Crimea?

It was already shown to you that the Ukrainian standard of living has gone to shit after the US supported coup, and of course the West has done everything possible to ensure Crimea goes down with it.  Hillary does not care one bit about human suffering, I'm afraid.  She cares about the Naval Base in Crimea.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23563480 - 08/21/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Ruble now ‘excessively’ strong - Russian Finance Minister https://www.rt.com/business/252769-ruble-too-strong-siluanov/




RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine.



What's important is not who puts out the information, but how accurate the information is.  I've found RT to be a very reliable source of information.

In this example, the claim was that the ruble was excessively strong in April 2015.  This is easily verifiable on Google Finance:

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1471819888607&chddm=637185&q=CURRENCY:RUBUSD&ntsp=0&ei=dyi6V6GzI8yGigLzqoj4Cw

On the other hand, your claims that "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine" and "He (Putin) wants his empire back" meets the very definition of propaganda.  It is meaningless information meant to promote a particular political point of view.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23563517 - 08/21/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Spock, you actually seem like a reasonably smart guy.

Hillary recently said that the US needs to do a better job getting out its propaganda.  I'm curious if you are getting paid to post here or volunteering on Hillary's behalf?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23564348 - 08/21/16 09:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Spock, you actually seem like a reasonably smart guy.

Hillary recently said that the US needs to do a better job getting out its propaganda.  I'm curious if you are getting paid to post here or volunteering on Hillary's behalf?




No. I wish I could get paid like that. I laughed when I read that because I saw that clip (this thread?) of her saying that(about the war of information) and I was going to say to you that your take is what happens when we start to lose the information(misinformation?) war. I am pro Hillary though. I loved the idea of Sanders and wish it was him but I am okay with Clinton. There's things that I don't trust about her but the alternative scares me. And Putin is a master spy kleptocrat who shits on gay people and locks up people who don't agree with him. He looks a lot like a dictator to me. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/politics/2012/04/vladimir-putin-mikhail-khodorkovsky-russia I'm not gay or a journalist but I see no reason to love on Putin.
"your claims that "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine" and "He (Putin) wants his empire back" meets the very definition of propaganda.  It is meaningless information meant to promote a particular political point of view."
"Hillary wants us to hate on Russia"

I'm a single dad and wish I could pick up a job killing time on the shroomery.

Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock] * 1
    #23564446 - 08/21/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your claims that "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine" and "He (Putin) wants his empire back" meets the very definition of propaganda.  It is meaningless information meant to promote a particular political point of view.

I'm curious if you are getting paid to post here or volunteering on Hillary's behalf?



I laughed when I read that because I saw that clip (this thread?) of her saying that(about the war of information) and I was going to say to you that your take is what happens when we start to lose the information(misinformation?) war.



To win an information war, you have to post real information.  Generalites, like "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine", and "Putin wants his empire" won't get you anywhere.

Quote:

spock said:
I am pro Hillary though. I loved the idea of Sanders and wish it was him but I am okay with Clinton. There's things that I don't trust about her but the alternative scares me.



I don't like Trump either.  So I'll vote for Jill Stein, and if Trump wins as result, Hillary only has herself to blame for putting Wall St above Main St.  That's not cool with me, and I'm surprised it's cool with you.

Quote:

spock said:
And Putin is a master spy kleptocrat who locks up people who don't agree with him. He looks a lot like a dictator to me. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/politics/2012/04/vladimir-putin-mikhail-khodorkovsky-russia



Khodorkovsky, the richest man in Russia, was found guilty of embezzlement and tax evasion.  He stole billions from the Russian people.  That's EXACTLY what liberals are hoping Clinton will do with American criminal bankers, but Clinton is beholden to Wall St, who won't touch them because they give her most of her money.

Edit:  By the way Putin let Khodorkovsky out early because his mother was sick.  We don't have that kind of sympathy for criminals in the US.

Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
your claims that "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine" and "He (Putin) wants his empire back" meets the very definition of propaganda.  It is meaningless information meant to promote a particular political point of view.



"Hillary wants us to hate on Russia"



Yes, but I provided the reasons why.  Something you'll need to do if you want people to agree with your points.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/21/16 10:40 PM)


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23564461 - 08/21/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

There's nothing wrong about Putin. He is a very strong believer of Christianity. I like how the story about his life, what his mother had done was almost the same sort of things that the women of the Biblio has done, like what Ziporrah and the rest of them has done for their sons. Putin's mom had him consecrated (baptized) behind her husband back (and which that was forbidden at the time), and which she had fulfilled the prophesy of the Lady of Fatima had told the priest to do, and that is to consecrate Russia, but they did not. If she had not done that, Putin would of have had a corrupted heart like hillary's and her disciples, that they wants a war.






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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23564995 - 08/22/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think Putin would recognize the prophesy of the lady of Fatima. In any case, I would argue that being a sincere Christian is a good start toward being flawless, but I know many devout who would cringe at a mortal being claimed as perfect. On the other hand, Putin has enriched himself and his inner circle on Russia's wealth. As an agent of the secret police for the athiest Soviet Union, one can only imagine what cruelty he committed.

That being said, I am 100% for normalization of relations with Russia,  my issue is with Putin and his cronies. If you think Clinton is corrupt, Putin has refused to hold legitimate elections for some time now.  Putin's opponents and pesky journalists are turning up murdered with poison,  as was the USSR style.

And the US might have tacitly supported the Ukrainian reaction, but Ukraine's last unified election wasn't up to standards and Russia literally invaded and began hostilities. Russia had the coup


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23565470 - 08/22/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Rather,  our friends with GDPs less than Pennsylvania stood by us after 9/11 as we went into Afghanistan.  Hell,  some of them even showed up for that unlawful fiasco called iraq. And now we want to dump all them so as not to aggrevate Trump's buddy despot? Make America Great Again indeed. Scared of reform, scared of all other races and creeds,  and ready to present our trembling asshole to the guy with icbms to protect us from some 2edgy4life teens with bombs from the hardware store.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23565506 - 08/22/16 10:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
As an agent of the secret police for the athiest Soviet Union, one can only imagine what cruelty he committed.



I'm not one who believes in imagination and make believe, but you're free to imagine what you like.

Quote:

Crumist said:
If you think Clinton is corrupt, Putin has refused to hold legitimate elections for some time now.



What does that mean exactly?  Has it gotten as bad as US elections where non-establishment candidates are prevented from winning?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Ok  Putin's opponents and pesky journalists are turning up murdered with poison,  as was the USSR style.



A small number of journalists have been killed, but the cause of death is usually known and it is not the Russian Government.  Journalists are killed here in the US as well; does that mean Obama should be blamed?

I just visited Moscow this year and was surprised by the amount of anti-Putin journalism there.  The press is much freer than we give them credit for.

Quote:

Crumist said:
And the US might have tacitly supported the Ukrainian reaction, but Ukraine's last unified election wasn't up to standards and Russia literally invaded and began hostilities. Russia had the coup



More imagination and make believe, or can you support this with evidence?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Rather,  our friends with GDPs less than Pennsylvania stood by us after 9/11 as we went into Afghanistan.



Even Russia helped us in Afghanistan by sharing intelligence and allowing logistical and military supplies through Russian territory.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Hell,  some of them even showed up for that unlawful fiasco called iraq. And now we want to dump all them so as not to aggrevate Trump's buddy despot?



More make believe?  Who says we want to dump all our allies?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Make America Great Again indeed. Scared of reform, scared of all other races and creeds,  and ready to present our trembling asshole to the guy with icbms to protect us from some 2edgy4life teens with bombs from the hardware store.



Are you talking about Trump?  I hate Trump.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23566969 - 08/22/16 06:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

spock said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your claims that "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine" and "He (Putin) wants his empire back" meets the very definition of propaganda.  It is meaningless information meant to promote a particular political point of view.

I'm curious if you are getting paid to post here or volunteering on Hillary's behalf?



I laughed when I read that because I saw that clip (this thread?) of her saying that(about the war of information) and I was going to say to you that your take is what happens when we start to lose the information(misinformation?) war.



To win an information war, you have to post real information.  Generalites, like "RT is Putin's personal propaganda machine", and "Putin wants his empire" won't get you anywhere.





I am not trying to win an information war. I was referring to the same clip of Clinton talking about the US losing the information war. I was joking. And "Hillary wants us to hate Russia" is real information? You say you've provided the reasons why but I don't see it? "so that we oppose Trump, who might actually be making progress to restore relations with them". Trump is making progress to restore relations with Russia? He's doing that?
Even if you say Putin was coming to Crimea's rescue or that the US orchestrated the coup, that doesn't make Putin any less a dictator. His history goes back past 2014. People change their position on things sometimes so maybe Putin has become the peace loving guy we should have relations with. But I'm not buying it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-12-29/2015-the-year-of-the-putin-dictatorship
http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/putin-really-is-a-dictator/
And here is an interesting article regarding Hillary/Russia http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/clinton-putin-226153
Peace
Spock


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23567419 - 08/22/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Sticking up for friends is what has got us into every war democrats vote for, then oppose and blame on republicans




For constantly calling others partisan, you sure like talking about the what you feel the Democrats did wrong :grin:.  In this case I'd say your being misleading. Afghanistan was initially authorized near unanimously by a R house and split senate. Iraq had split democratic opposition but ultimately passed in part due Bush's WMDs. Obviously, g.w.bush was republican and the driving force for both. Which conflicts did you have in mind?


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23567806 - 08/22/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spock said:
"Hillary wants us to hate Russia" is real information? You say you've provided the reasons why but I don't see it?



Oops, I failed to post the link to the story that made me start this thread in the first place.  My apologies.

I started this thread in response to Clinton accusing Putin of hacking DNC emails in order to manipulate the election, when in fact the only thing that's been proven is that the DNC tried to manipulate the election in favor of Hillary.  I don't recall the article I read, but here's a similar story:

Clinton Campaign Suggests DNC Email Leak Is Vast Russian Conspiracy to Elect Trump

Quote:

spock said:
"so that we oppose Trump, who might actually be making progress to restore relations with them". Trump is making progress to restore relations with Russia? He's doing that?



I believe so.  He already said we should let Crimea decide its own fate, which is to stay with Russia.  That would end the current conflict with Russia, which is taking us dangerously close to WWIII.

Quote:

spock said:
Even if you say Putin was coming to Crimea's rescue or that the US orchestrated the coup, that doesn't make Putin any less a dictator. His history goes back past 2014. People change their position on things sometimes so maybe Putin has become the peace loving guy we should have relations with. But I'm not buying it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-12-29/2015-the-year-of-the-putin-dictatorship
http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/putin-really-is-a-dictator/
And here is an interesting article regarding Hillary/Russia http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/clinton-putin-226153



So we should hate on Russia because Putin's adversaries call him a dictator?  The US currently supports dictatorships all over the world, and in some cases installs them.  I don't know if that's reason enough for hostility towards Russia.

As for the article about Hillary/Russia, I think it supports my point of view about Hillary quite well.  She's extremely anti-Russia.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23567899 - 08/23/16 12:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have nothing against Russia or it's people but I fear Putin has hijacked the recently democratic nation in order to make himself one of the wealthiest men in the world. Ukraine is only the most recent story of Russian aggression. Russia's military action in Syria against US friendly and soft civilian targets is reprehensible and greatly complicates, rather than assists the handling of ISIS. Warming Russian-Iranian relations also slams shut the opportunity for the United States to do the same.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:.
Quote:

Crumist said:
As an agent of the secret police for the athiest Soviet Union, one can only imagine what cruelty he committed.



I'm not one who believes in imagination and make believe, but you're free to imagine what you like.

Another was talking about what a good Christian and prophesied child of the lady of Fatima. You do know he is ex-KGB/once KGB always KGB.

Quote:

Crumist said:
If you think Clinton is corrupt, Putin has refused to hold legitimate elections for some time now.



What does that mean exactly?  Has it gotten as bad as US elections where non-establishment candidates are prevented from winning?

Yes, Russia prohibits observers, harasses voters, and has a turnout around 30%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Russia#criticism_of%20recent_elections Protests following the past few elections have been violently crushed. Putin enriches himself and his circle with his power. American corruption is much more subtle and is no comparison. Trump is also hardly establishment and he had a decent chance at winning if he wasn't such a clown. Bernie on the other hand accomplished a lot, but wasn't chosen by voting democrats to be the nominee.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Ok  Putin's opponents and pesky journalists are turning up murdered with poison,  as was the USSR style.



A small number of journalists have been killed, but the cause of death is usually known and it is not the Russian Government.  Journalists are killed here in the US as well; does that mean Obama should be blamed?

I just visited Moscow this year and was surprised by the amount of anti-Putin journalism there.  The press is much freer than we give them credit for.

Anecdotes are nice, but watchdog groups are better, 148 out of 197 according to Freedom House, US is 30 for comparison. Political murders -> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/world/europe/moscow-kremlin-silence-critics-poison.html?referer=https://duckduckgo.com/

Quote:

Crumist said:
And the US might have tacitly supported the Ukrainian reaction, but Ukraine's last unified election wasn't up to standards and Russia literally invaded and began hostilities. Russia had the coup



More imagination and make believe, or can you support this with evidence?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/timeline-ukraine-political-crisis-201431143722854652.html
Quote:

Crumist said:
Rather,  our friends with GDPs less than Pennsylvania stood by us after 9/11 as we went into Afghanistan.



Even Russia helped us in Afghanistan by sharing intelligence and allowing logistical and military supplies through Russian territory.

Sure, but my point was our NATO allies have always backed us when called upon. How could we abandon them at their moment of need?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Hell,  some of them even showed up for that unlawful fiasco called iraq. And now we want to dump all them so as not to aggrevate Trump's buddy despot?



More make believe?  Who says we want to dump all our allies?

Trump

Quote:

Crumist said:
Make America Great Again indeed. Scared of reform, scared of all other races and creeds,  and ready to present our trembling asshole to the guy with icbms to protect us from some 2edgy4life teens with bombs from the hardware store.



Are you talking about Trump?  I hate Trump.




Yay!


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23567990 - 08/23/16 01:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
I have nothing against Russia or it's people but I fear Putin has hijacked the recently democratic nation in order to make himself one of the wealthiest men in the world.



He made his fortune the way all Russian oligarchs made their fortunes; when the Soviet Union turned capitalist, high ranking officials got huge shares of the newly privatized companies.  In order to increase his wealth, Russian companies would need to do well (I don't think his current sub $200,000/year salary is making him rich).

Quote:

Crumist said:
Ukraine is only the most recent story of Russian aggression.



Please reread this post and then correct any mistakes or omissions so I better undersand "Russian Aggression".

Quote:

Crumist said:
Russia's military action in Syria against US friendly and soft civilian targets is reprehensible and greatly complicates, rather than assists the handling of ISIS.



Do you mean their attacks against ISIS are hurting ISIS's chances of taking out Assad?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Warming Russian-Iranian relations also slams shut the opportunity for the United States to do the same.



Perhaps.  But why do you think Iran (and now Turkey) are warming up to Russia rather than to the US?


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23568112 - 08/23/16 04:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry long post.
    I don't understand the theme of this post at all. Are the people on here so young? The USSR/Russia has been our enemy since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. There were only two breaks in our animosity towards them.
    At the beginning of WWII, Hitler and Stalin made a nonaggression pact. Hitler violated it and attacked the USSR (big mistake). We then became allies with the Soviet Union, and they basically won the war in Europe, as 80% of the German divisions were on the Eastern Front. The Russians took more casualties than any other country. As the war ended, we were very worried about their expansionism (as opposed to ours) Some of our top military brass wanted to attack them immediately. We proved we had the bomb in Japan, and we weren't sure if they did or not. The centrists (I think Eisenhower and Truman, but I'm not sure) prevailed saying we were tired of war. The Soviets took control of Eastern Europe and other satellite countries. We rebuilt Western Europe and took control of the Pacific basin, because we won the war there and defeated Japan.
    This was followed by the Cold War, when for decades both sides built nuclear missiles as fast as they possibly could. The Soviets knew our missiles were more accurate then ours so they built more than we had to compensate. They also built tanks in immense numbers, presumably for an attack on Western Europe. This scared the shit out of us because we could only defend a tank attack on Europe by using nukes which would probably result in the end of the world. Western Europe became very pacifistic and Social Democrat economically. They were on our side, and were protected by us, but they knew if anything happened they would be the victims, and historically they were much more scarred by war then we were. When Reagan got elected (he may or may not deserve the credit)he decided to outspend the Soviets economically. The Soviets could keep up with us militarily, but since our economy was so much more vibrant, they couldn't provide any comfort to their people, and life was shit in a police state in USSR and Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, earlier, rebellions were staged and put down in Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, and later towards the end in Poland.
      This was when Mikhael Gorbachev, a visionary leader, somehow got control of the Soviet Union and convinced them their communist system could not be sustained. It was gradual process. Andropov was the Soviet leader and started to reform the system, but he died, and then they put in another hardliner, and then Gorbachev took control and with his allies talked the Soviet Union out of communism.
    This was the only other time we weren't enemies with the Russians. The Gorbachev revolution eliminated communism and freed the satellites and all the non Russian republics (many Muslim). Most of the world was ecstatic, and it did end up good for the Eastern European satellites, except Yugoslavia which had a horrific civil war.
    The U.S., in a fit of naivety thought everything was hunky dory. Russia was capitalist and free and they would be just like us. While the world was in love with Gorbachev, the Russians grew tired of not being a military superpower, and pushed him out, which was followed by Boris Yeltsin, who I could never form an opinion of. He seemed like a drunken good time Charlie, reminded me of Bill Clinton somewhat. This lead to Putin. The Russian people like power and they like a strong boss, even if he is a really bad man (like Stalin). Putin was a KGB officer and a trained thug. Since he took power Russia was on an expansion craze to take back what they had. We have felt threatened by them ever since, and they act the way they do because they feel threatened by us.
    At any rate the U.S. and Russia have been enemies for most of the last 100 years.


--------------------
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23568215 - 08/23/16 06:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He made his fortune the way all Russian oligarchs made their fortunes; when the Soviet Union turned capitalist, high ranking officials got huge shares of the newly privatized companies.  In order to increase his wealth, Russian companies would need to do well (I don't think his current sub $200,000/year salary is making him rich).




He, his family, and his close friends make lots of money on the decisions of Putin's government. In the US we would call that bald-faced corruption, but Ive read that in Russia it is simply seen as the cherry on top of being President/dictator. I suppose no foul there. He has totally messed up Russia's strives towards democracy though, what with taking three extra terms and playing dirty with the competition.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Please reread this post and then correct any mistakes or omissions so I better undersand "Russian Aggression".

Perhaps the issue is I figured you were talking about the armed conflict as the "coup" as I understand a coup as where the military takes over the gov't, sometimes as an agent of a political faction. The Ukrainian military mostly refrained from partaking in the 2014 Maidan revolution, but was otherwise under the command of Yanukovych. I am sure the CIA and Euro spy agencies were encouraging Euro Maidan, but the eventual admittedly illegal removal of Yanukovych must have been a result of his brutish crackdown on the student protests. You skip over the details of the protest and just point out that Crimea was traditionally Russian. THe gist is: students gather to celebrate trade deal with the EU, Yanukovych says "jinks!" fuck the EU, Im going to sign deals with Russia instead, disappointed students protest, police assault square with clubs, fatalities, but ultimately they are repelled [url=trailer of "Winter On Fire" a good, but admitedly pro-Ukraine and therefore pro-West perspective. The film has good footage of Maidan 1st]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RibAQHeDia8[/url], the protestors erect baracades, un-uniformed Russian special forces aggression (as was suspected and as has been since admitted) support police and infiltrate the protest, escalation until eventually the police are using live ammunition aggression. Cease-fire called, Yanukovych runs away to Russia, Russian troops occupy Crimea aggression. They do have the naval base, but this was clearly an occupation, not exercises.

Again, I admit Obama and Merkle were probably all for Euro-Maidan as Russia supports Occupy Wall Street and BLM, but you can't incite all those citizens to fight the armored Berkut with fisticuffs, or a man with an assault rifle with stones and captured riot gear.


Quote:

Crumist said:
Russia's military action in Syria against US friendly and soft civilian targets is reprehensible and greatly complicates, rather than assists the handling of ISIS.



Do you mean their attacks against ISIS are hurting ISIS's chances of taking out Assad?

That is objectively true, but as there are many parties to the conflict in Syria, bombing the Kurds and groups that are both anti-Assad and anti-ISIS have lost us ground against ISIS.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Warming Russian-Iranian relations also slams shut the opportunity for the United States to do the same.



Perhaps.  But why do you think Iran (and now Turkey) are warming up to Russia rather than to the US?




Honestly, because I feel the US propaganda machine is at a low point and Russias is back in its prime. The US gets blamed for the Turkey coup and the president doesn't as much as make a timely statement?


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23568866 - 08/23/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Sorry long post.
    I don't understand the theme of this post at all. Are the people on here so young? The USSR/Russia has been our enemy since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. There were only two breaks in our animosity towards them.
    At the beginning of WWII, Hitler and Stalin made a nonaggression pact. Hitler violated it and attacked the USSR (big mistake). We then became allies with the Soviet Union, and they basically won the war in Europe, as 80% of the German divisions were on the Eastern Front. The Russians took more casualties than any other country. As the war ended, we were very worried about their expansionism (as opposed to ours) Some of our top military brass wanted to attack them immediately. We proved we had the bomb in Japan, and we weren't sure if they did or not. The centrists (I think Eisenhower and Truman, but I'm not sure) prevailed saying we were tired of war. The Soviets took control of Eastern Europe and other satellite countries. We rebuilt Western Europe and took control of the Pacific basin, because we won the war there and defeated Japan.
    This was followed by the Cold War, when for decades both sides built nuclear missiles as fast as they possibly could. The Soviets knew our missiles were more accurate then ours so they built more than we had to compensate. They also built tanks in immense numbers, presumably for an attack on Western Europe. This scared the shit out of us because we could only defend a tank attack on Europe by using nukes which would probably result in the end of the world. Western Europe became very pacifistic and Social Democrat economically. They were on our side, and were protected by us, but they knew if anything happened they would be the victims, and historically they were much more scarred by war then we were. When Reagan got elected (he may or may not deserve the credit)he decided to outspend the Soviets economically. The Soviets could keep up with us militarily, but since our economy was so much more vibrant, they couldn't provide any comfort to their people, and life was shit in a police state in USSR and Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, earlier, rebellions were staged and put down in Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, and later towards the end in Poland.
      This was when Mikhael Gorbachev, a visionary leader, somehow got control of the Soviet Union and convinced them their communist system could not be sustained. It was gradual process. Andropov was the Soviet leader and started to reform the system, but he died, and then they put in another hardliner, and then Gorbachev took control and with his allies talked the Soviet Union out of communism.
    This was the only other time we weren't enemies with the Russians. The Gorbachev revolution eliminated communism and freed the satellites and all the non Russian republics (many Muslim). Most of the world was ecstatic, and it did end up good for the Eastern European satellites, except Yugoslavia which had a horrific civil war.
    The U.S., in a fit of naivety thought everything was hunky dory. Russia was capitalist and free and they would be just like us. While the world was in love with Gorbachev, the Russians grew tired of not being a military superpower, and pushed him out, which was followed by Boris Yeltsin, who I could never form an opinion of. He seemed like a drunken good time Charlie, reminded me of Bill Clinton somewhat. This lead to Putin. The Russian people like power and they like a strong boss, even if he is a really bad man (like Stalin). Putin was a KGB officer and a trained thug. Since he took power Russia was on an expansion craze to take back what they had. We have felt threatened by them ever since, and they act the way they do because they feel threatened by us.
    At any rate the U.S. and Russia have been enemies for most of the last 100 years.



I generally agree with your post, up until the end where you said "the Russian people like power and they like a strong boss, even if he is a really bad man (like Stalin)."  Now THAT'S what I call propaganda, unless you can show Putin is "like Stalin", who killed millions of Russian citizens, or prove he "is a really bad man".

You also said "Since he took power Russia was on an expansion craze".  PLEASE help me understand this expansion craze - the only expansion I'm aware of is NATO expanding towards Russia (unless you count Crimea, which overwhelmingly voted to rejoin Russia and did so without a single military casualty.)


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23569051 - 08/23/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just realized I missed part of your previous post, because your new comments were formatted to appear as my old comments.  I'll respond to those first.

Quote:

Crumist said:
You do know he is ex-KGB/once KGB always KGB.



Huh?  What does that mean?  Now that's propaganda if I ever saw it.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Has it gotten as bad as US elections where non-establishment candidates are prevented from winning?



Yes, Russia prohibits observers, harasses voters, and has a turnout around 30%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Russia#criticism_of%20recent_elections



All of the above have been observed in US elections as well (let me know if you want a link).  I know many people living in Russia, none of whom see any of the above when they vote.  But see the next comment below.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91W said:
I just visited Moscow this year and was surprised by the amount of anti-Putin journalism there.  The press is much freer than we give them credit for.



Anecdotes are nice, but watchdog groups are better, 148 out of 197 according to Freedom House, US is 30 for comparison.



I agree that watchdog groups are nice, but not Freedom House.
Quote:

Freedom House ranks Russia's political rights on the same level as the United Arab Emirates, which, according to Freedom House, is a federation of absolute monarchies with no hint of democracy anywhere in the system. Freedom House also ranks Russia's civil liberties on the same scale as those of Yemen. In Yemen, according to the constitution, Sharia law is the only source of legislation, and allows assaults and killings of women for alleged immoral behaviour. Criticising the president is illegal in Yemen. Treisman contrasts Freedom House's ranking with the Polity IV scale used by academics and in which Russia has a much better score.

On December 7, 2004, U.S. House Representative Ron Paul criticized Freedom House for allegedly administering a U.S.-funded program in Ukraine where "much of that money was targeted to assist one particular candidate."

Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman have criticized the organization for excessively criticizing states opposed to US interests while being unduly sympathetic to regimes supportive of US interests. For example, Freedom House described the Rhodesian general election of 1979 as "fair", but described the Southern Rhodesian 1980 elections as "dubious", and it found El Salvador's 1982 election to be "admirable".




Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
And the US might have tacitly supported the Ukrainian reaction, but Ukraine's last unified election wasn't up to standards and Russia literally invaded and began hostilities. Russia had the coup



More imagination and make believe, or can you support this with evidence?




http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/timeline-ukraine-political-crisis-201431143722854652.html



Can you be specific, as that timeline appears to support my point of view?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Even Russia helped us in Afghanistan by sharing intelligence and allowing logistical and military supplies through Russian territory.



Sure, but my point was our NATO allies have always backed us when called upon. How could we abandon them at their moment of need?



Please explain what you mean by "their moment of need"?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He made his fortune the way all Russian oligarchs made their fortunes; when the Soviet Union turned capitalist, high ranking officials got huge shares of the newly privatized companies.  In order to increase his wealth, Russian companies would need to do well (I don't think his current sub $200,000/year salary is making him rich).



He, his family, and his close friends make lots of money on the decisions of Putin's government. In the US we would call that bald-faced corruption



Please cite the specifics of how Putin is doing this, and stop with the propaganda.

Quote:

Crumist said:
He has totally messed up Russia's strives towards democracy though, what with taking three extra terms and playing dirty with the competition.



He has a favorability rating of 80%+.  Of course he's getting reelected.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please reread this post and then correct any mistakes or omissions so I better undersand "Russian Aggression".



Perhaps the issue is I figured you were talking about the armed conflict as the "coup" as I understand a coup as where the military takes over the gov't, sometimes as an agent of a political faction.



I don't see military in the definition of a coup:
Quote:

a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.




Quote:

Crumist said:
I am sure the CIA and Euro spy agencies were encouraging Euro Maidan, but the eventual admittedly illegal removal of Yanukovych must have been a result of his brutish crackdown on the student protests. You skip over the details of the protest and just point out that Crimea was traditionally Russian. THe gist is: students gather to celebrate trade deal with the EU, Yanukovych says "jinks!" fuck the EU, Im going to sign deals with Russia instead, disappointed students protest, police assault square with clubs, fatalities, but ultimately they are repelled [url=trailer of "Winter On Fire" a good, but admitedly pro-Ukraine and therefore pro-West perspective. The film has good footage of Maidan 1st]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RibAQHeDia8[/url], the protestors erect baracades, un-uniformed Russian special forces aggression (as was suspected and as has been since admitted) support police and infiltrate the protest, escalation until eventually the police are using live ammunition aggression. Cease-fire called, Yanukovych runs away to Russia, Russian troops occupy Crimea aggression. They do have the naval base, but this was clearly an occupation, not exercises.

Again, I admit Obama and Merkle were probably all for Euro-Maidan as Russia supports Occupy Wall Street and BLM, but you can't incite all those citizens to fight the armored Berkut with fisticuffs, or a man with an assault rifle with stones and captured riot gear.



So you're saying that when George Bush had an approval rating of 22%, it would have been ok to violently oust him from power rather than wait for the next election???  :facepalm:

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you mean their attacks against ISIS are hurting ISIS's chances of taking out Assad?



That is objectively true, but as there are many parties to the conflict in Syria, bombing the Kurds and groups that are both anti-Assad and anti-ISIS have lost us ground against ISIS.



We should just step back and let Russia finish off ISIS, as they're doing a much better job than the US.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23569109 - 08/23/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thats because the West is either indirectly or directly supporting ISIS.


I think we're using Erdogan to funnel weapons into Syria. Wikileaks all but confirms this.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #23569864 - 08/23/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Red Scare stopped working to keep the public frightened, so they switched it up to terrorists, and now that people have become somewhat inured to the dangers of terrorism, boom, back to the scary Russians.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23570202 - 08/23/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, not going to quote your post and go point by point. You win infinite internet points by reason of poster laziness. Haha

Aww damn it, here I go again, :

Quote:

let me know if you'd like a link


yes please.

You ask I provide all these links I feel are quite readily found and post few yourself. I check your claims myself. Then I feel you avoid my now cited arguments to knit pick elsewhere and accuse me of making things up.

Good catch with freedom house, that was Wikipedia's default. Rsf.org reporters without borders have US 41, Ukraine 107 Russia 148. These are (as were the FH figures) press freedom rankings, sorry if that wasn't clear.

I was trying to point out that we understood different events as being the coup. You say the ouster of Yanukovych was the coup, I'd call it a revolution. I was thinking the desertion of Ukraine forces to fight for Donetsk or Crimea being the coup. Either way, we are talking about Feb. 23 2014. Russia doesn't admit to having troops in Ukraine at this point, but there were plenty of Federal Security Service (FSB) "advisors" going back to December '13. The FSB's implication in key kidnappings, murders, and sniper attacks is rumors, as are any US involvement in Ukraine. Prove to me the 2014 revolution was a foreign plot in opposition to Ukrainian ideals.

There is only a bit more information about Putin's finances (imagine the POTUS not having to disclose and divest every minute financial detail) Perhaps it is all propaganda, but I didn't make it up, the NYT, again, and Reuters, and Telegraph and some German paper did. I only skimmed the articles, and most of it is real boring dry stuff, but in the USA anything remotely close to this is !!corruption!! Here we worry about Exon-Mobile's influence purchased with a donation. In Putin's Russia, Gazprom's CEO is the head of state with all the insider trading tips and a cadre of industry barons he bestows favors upon.

By Estonia or Lithuania's moment of need, I mean I understand these former Soviet states enjoy their independence but are terrified by Russia's involvement in 13 conflicts in former ssr's and now annexation. And a new faction in us politics that approves military conquest, corrupt elections, press suppression, opposition suppression.  Yes, the US has been in many more conflicts in that time frame, but Im not currently making a morality judgment of such conflicts (truly though, they suck) but trying to illustrate how really fucking scared the tiny Baltic countries are.

Im all for "self determination" and agree with Donetsk independence and Crimea going to Russia, but it was done all wrong. Russia violently occupies Crimea and holds a referendum over the opposition of nearly the entire international community. Both options on the ballot lead to a Russian annexation of Crimea and again, the region is under foreign occupation. The justification is concern for the welfare of ethnic Russians, just like the Anschluss. Yet it was the antagonizing of pro-Russian Yanukovych and then Russia itself that escalated violence and endangered lives.

And ABSOLUTELY if George W. Bush ordered the use of live ammunition en mass upon protestors outside the white house would his government had serious legitimacy issues, especially given the questionable way he was elected in 2000. Its all fun and games until someone starts shooting to kill. Then we have civil war. If you have netflix please check out Winter on Fire. There is no defending Yanukovych's government. Ill agree to watch the best pro-Russian narrative propaganda in exchange :laugh:


--------------------
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Edited by Crumist (08/23/16 07:07 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23570666 - 08/23/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
Yes, Russia prohibits observers, harasses voters, and has a turnout around 30%.



All of the above have been observed in USA elections as well (let me know if you want a link).



yes please.



Here's a large list of voter suppression and poll problems in the US from the 2012 election alone.

Quote:

Crumist said:
You ask I provide all these links I feel are quite readily found and post few yourself.



I'll happily provide evidence for any points you want.

Quote:

Crumist said:
I check your claims myself. Then I feel you avoid my now cited arguments to knit pick elsewhere and accuse me of making things up.



I don't think I'm doing this, but maybe you can prove me wrong with an example?

Quote:

Crumist said:
I was trying to point out that we understood different events as being the coup. You say the ouster of Yanukovych was the coup, I'd call it a revolution.



Tomato, Tomahto.  Is it ever ok to violently overthrow a democratically elected leader, especially with the backing of the US?  Is that what democracy is all about?

Quote:

Crumist said:
I was thinking the desertion of Ukraine forces to fight for Donetsk or Crimea being the coup. Either way, we are talking about Feb. 23 2014.



Then your argument is that there was a counter-coup in reaction to the initial coup.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Russia doesn't admit to having troops in Ukraine at this point, but there were plenty of Federal Security Service (FSB) "advisors" going back to December '13. The FSB's implication in key kidnappings, murders, and sniper attacks is rumors, as are any US involvement in Ukraine. Prove to me the 2014 revolution was a foreign plot in opposition to Ukrainian ideals.



The link above (with video evidence) is pretty damning proof.  The election results and the fact that people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine wanted no part of the new Government are proof that not all Ukrainians had the same "Ukrainian ideals".

Quote:

Crumist said:
There is only a bit more information about Putin's finances (imagine the POTUS not having to disclose and divest every minute financial detail) Perhaps it is all propaganda, but I didn't make it up, the NYT, again, and Reuters, and Telegraph and some German paper did. I only skimmed the articles, and most of it is real boring dry stuff, but in the USA anything remotely close to this is !!corruption!!



I read the first three.  The first article explains how money was transferred from an international bank to a local bank to protect it from US sanctions and the freezing of funds (I realize that critical detail was left out, as most readers are too lazy to research why that happened).  The second article said Russia is continuing to privatize its assets to bring additional revenue to the Government (is that a problem?)  The third article says Putin's daughter is very wealthy, which I never disputed and I already explained how Putin became wealthy.  I didn't bother to read the fourth and fifth because the first three don't really support your point.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Here we worry about Exon-Mobile's influence purchased with a donation. In Putin's Russia, Gazprom's CEO is the head of state with all the insider trading tips and a cadre of industry barons he bestows favors upon.



Welcome to capitalism, my friend.  Darrel Issa (as an example) was a CEO now worth a half a billion dollars and is passing laws here in the US to enrich himself further.  Is it wrong for Russia to copy our model?

Quote:

Crumist said:
By Estonia or Lithuania's moment of need, I mean I understand these former Soviet states enjoy their independence but are terrified by Russia's involvement in 13 conflicts in former ssr's and now annexation.  And a new faction in us politics that approves military conquest, corrupt elections, press suppression, opposition suppression.  Yes, the US has been in many more conflicts in that time frame, but Im not currently making a morality judgment of such conflicts (truly though, they suck) but trying to illustrate how really fucking scared the tiny Baltic countries are.



They're "terrified"?  That sounds like propaganda.  Tell me about real Russian action.  The only country they should be scared of is the US.  As has already been pointed out, Ukrainian lives have gone to hell after the US backed coup.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Im all for "self determination" and agree with Donetsk independence and Crimea going to Russia, but it was done all wrong. Russia violently occupies Crimea and holds a referendum over the opposition of nearly the entire international community.



But it wasn't a violent occupation of Crimea.  No one died from a military attack there.  And I think by "over the opposition of the international community" you really mean "over the opposition of the US and its allies".

Quote:

Crumist said:
Both options on the ballot lead to a Russian annexation of Crimea and again, the region is under foreign occupation. The justification is concern for the welfare of ethnic Russians, just like the Anschluss.



Ah, the Hitler comparison that always gets thrown in (propaganda).  :smirk:

Quote:

Crumist said:
Yet it was the antagonizing of pro-Russian Yanukovych and then Russia itself that escalated violence and endangered lives.

And ABSOLUTELY if George W. Bush ordered the use of live ammunition en mass upon protestors outside the white house would his government had serious legitimacy issues, especially given the questionable way he was elected in 2000. Its all fun and games until someone starts shooting to kill. Then we have civil war.



So if a group of angry Democratic protesters stormed the White House, Bush should be expected to give up his Presidency?  Interesting perspective.

Quote:

Crumist said:
If you have netflix please check out Winter on Fire. There is no defending Yanukovych's government. Ill agree to watch the best pro-Russian narrative propaganda in exchange :laugh:



Sounds like a deal.  Let me find a good one...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23571233 - 08/23/16 11:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
If you have netflix please check out Winter on Fire. There is no defending Yanukovych's government. Ill agree to watch the best pro-Russian narrative propaganda in exchange :laugh:



Sounds like a deal.  Let me find a good one...



Here's one.  Quite interesting, but not terribly exciting:

Crimea. The Way Back Home.


I'll watch Winter on Fire.

Edit:  I can't seem to get the video to display properly, but the url is in the message.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/23/16 11:39 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #23571397 - 08/24/16 12:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The USSR/Russia has been our enemy since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.




There's your mistake right there. The USSR and Russia are two completely different countries. Conflating one with the other ignores the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Russia shows no signs of rebuilding the Soviet empire, rather they wish us to uphold our agreements not to mess around in their backyard. They were invaded twice, once by Napoleon and once by Hitler, through their belly and understandably wish to have a buffer there. We have been needlessly provoking them and prying on their chinks of armor there, adding those states to NATO when we had agreed not to, which makes them nervous and suspicious. I can't say I blame them.

Actually when you think about it, the USSR was good for us in a way because it kept our imperial ambitions in check. When it collapsed, all restraint was lost. Now much of the world hates us because we have been trying to create hegemony and dictate to the rest of the world.

We need to stop trying to make Russia a vassal state and mind our own business in places like Ukraine where we supported a coup to overthrow their democratically elected leader and install one friendly to us, provoking Russia. There is absolutely no need to do this. Russia is not our enemy.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (08/24/16 12:41 AM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: zorbman]
    #23571707 - 08/24/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

The USSR/Russia has been our enemy since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.




There's your mistake right there. The USSR and Russia are two completely different countries. Conflating one with the other ignores the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Russia shows no signs of rebuilding the Soviet empire, rather they wish us to uphold our agreements not to mess around in their backyard. They were invaded twice, once by Napoleon and once by Hitler, through their belly and understandably wish to have a buffer there. We have been needlessly provoking them and prying on their chinks of armor there, adding those states to NATO when we had agreed not to, which makes them nervous and suspicious. I can't say I blame them.

Actually when you think about it, the USSR was good for us in a way because it kept our imperial ambitions in check. When it collapsed, all restraint was lost. Now much of the world hates us because we have been trying to create hegemony and dictate to the rest of the world.

We need to stop trying to make Russia a vassal state and mind our own business in places like Ukraine where we supported a coup to overthrow their democratically elected leader and install one friendly to us, provoking Russia. There is absolutely no need to do this. Russia is not our enemy.





    I think you are mistaken. They became our enemy again shortly after Putin took power, and this is obvious to anyone who isn't young and can't put history in perspective. Putin was KGB all the way, and he is completely expansionist (not that we aren't expansionist). The new Russia was a dream with Gorbachev, but once Putin came in we are coming against something very similar to the USSR. The difference is the  Communist Party got replaced by a gangster state with many of the ex high party members selling off plutonium and anything else to the highest bidder, many of them that wish to do harm to us harm. If I sound like a right wing hardliner, I'm not; I'm more of a pacifistic liberal, but I am a realist and I know Putin is dangerous.

    As far as the comment that I am mistaking the USSR with Russia, its a partial truth, but you better grow up fast.

    On current events, the Crimea looks like a complete power play takeover. The Ukraine (which is much bigger) is more complicated. I don't know the exact percentage breakdown, but many people in the Ukraine consider themselves Russian and side with them. Everyone is waiting to see what happens when Putin attacks a NATO country, especially one of the new ones that we don't have a long relationship with. Then we either start WWIII, or the idea of NATO superiority is exposed as a myth. We are most likely looking at a new Cold War, or worse, and it will make our issues in the Middle East look like small potatoes. Russia like us, has enough ICBMs to blow up the world 500 times. And we seemingly have no potential of having a leader who can face down and play a game of "chicken" with Putin, and he is totally ruthless enough to call our bluff.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #23572381 - 08/24/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with Hillary is that she's going to push for a bombing campaign against the Assad government in Syria.

This puts the US into direct conflict with Russia over ME territory.

Will they actually do it? Who knows.

What we do know is that the US needs to give up on its imperialist ambitions, including Syria, where it is actively supporting ISIS / Al-Qaeda as a proxy force for regime change.

The US' blatant support for Al-Qaeda and the MSM playing along with the effort to re-brand them as "moderate" is disgusting, and it has ruined the lives of thousands of innocent people...

The US knew that a no-fly zone in Syria would result in an ISIL capture of Damascus:

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russias-ambassador-uk-drops-bombshell-us-expected-isis-seize-damascus-october/ri12860

One can only conclude that the US' foreign policy goal is to have ISIL / Al-Qaeda takeover Syria and then re-brand them as a "moderate" legitimate Sunni government in the media, just like we did with Libya, meanwhile ignoring the massacres committed by our terrorist proxy forces against the innocent civilians of Syria.

It's time to wake up to the fact that our country is run by psychopaths and criminals, who openly support radical terrorists when it suits their goals, and who are actively using this country's MSM as blatant propaganda outlets to justify these crimes against humanity.

It doesn't matter who gets elected president, this policy will continue regardless of the puppet in charge.

We must put an end to the age of imperialism, once and for all.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #23572426 - 08/24/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

With all we have observed regarding modern insurgency in the last 40+ years, i find it hard to believe that anyone is really afraid of Russia rolling former soviet states back up. Even if that came to pass, it would likely not end well for Russia, and here is why: Modern Mechanized Forces like those of Russia and the U.S. are designed primarily for defeating other mechanized armies.  Such forces are much less effective against relatively poorly equipped insurgents.  There are several reasons for this, but the most important one is money.  Throughout history, wars are rarely won or lost because of a lack of soldiers.  After all, a new crop of fighting age men is born each year.  Rather, it is a lack of money (or profit) that tends to end wars.  Now, compare the cost (in dollars) of 1 U.S. soldier to 1 irregular fighter for the Taliban, Isis, Viet Cong, etc. and it becomes clear.  To illustrate the point further, compare the cost of 1 Humvee or MRAP to the cost of an IED (these are often simply a High Explosive Anti Tank or HEAT shell rigged for remote detonation).  Just to drive the point home, compare the cost of 1 Apache helicopter  to 1 man with a shoulder fired rocket.  Imagine for a moment the amount of bombs that were dropped on empty Vietnamese jungle and the enormous cost of such things.  The more one looks at it, the more obvious it becomes.  Now, back to Russia and its "threat" to the Balkans. Russia has been trying to subdue Chechnya since the fall of the USSR, with dubious success at best.  They are now involved in the Ukraine, and Syria.  How many little occupations can they feasibly pull off do you think?  If Putin decided that he wanted to roll the former soviets back into the fold,  what are the odds that he could reasonably do it?  This isn't the 1940's anymore.  Armed insurgency is the method of the age, and as has been the case since T.E. Lawrence helped the Arabs demonstrate its efficacy against the Turks, massed armies can only make ham-handed attempts to crush insurgents with "overwhelming force".  Russia can't subdue 1 Chechnya. They couldn't subdue 1 Afghanistan.  How are they going to subdue several?  Indeed, if one were to view the world as a battle between "Russian Interests" and "U.S. Interests", and one were to favor "U.S. Interests", then one should welcome Russian expansion, as the almost inevitable result would be a long term, expensive conflict between Russia and our proxies that would almost certainly undermine Russia's political and economic security.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23572602 - 08/24/16 11:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Putin was KGB all the way



What does "KGB all the way" mean? I get the feeling it's supposed to mean "I'm so scared!" If not, what does it mean?

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
he is completely expansionist (not that we aren't expansionist).



Ignoring Crimea (which has been discussed ad nauseaum above) can you explain this Russian expansion?

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I am a realist and I know Putin is dangerous.



So you are so scared!  Why do you think you "know Putin is dangerous"?  Has he done anything worse than what the United States has been doing?

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
On current events, the Crimea looks like a complete power play takeover.



It was a power play takeover.  But then the Crimean people voted to leave after the West took control.

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Everyone is waiting to see what happens when Putin attacks a NATO country, especially one of the new ones that we don't have a long relationship with.



There it is again - "I'm so scared!"

The reason Putin would attack NATO is if he felt overly threatened by them.  And that's where we're heading as NATO closes in on Russia's borders.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #23572884 - 08/24/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They became our enemy again shortly after Putin took power, and this is obvious to anyone who isn't young and can't put history in perspective.




Quote:

..you better grow up fast.




Please. I am almost 49 years old, so there goes that theory. One problem I don't share with many older people is the inability to change my perceptions based upon new facts. People are always fighting the last war. It's human nature. For example, NATO, like all organizations, often seeks to justify its relevance, budget, and existence by ginning up unnecessary conflict with Russia.

Quote:

On current events, the Crimea looks like a complete power play takeover.




Only if you give credence to the corrupt media backing warmonger Hillary. The Russian "takeover" of the Crimea was a direct response to neocons like Victoria Nuland supporting a coup in Russia's backyard that overthrew the democratically-elected leader of Ukraine. Russia historically needs their only warm water port in the Crimea, having leased access to it through 2024, and wanted to make sure they had access to it after our provocations.

There has been an unwritten rule since WWII to not interfere with Moscow in its zone of influence in Central and Eastern Europe. Reagan sent weapons to anti-communists in South America, but only sent typewriters to Poland. We need to return to this prudent course of action instead of foolishly risking conflict with Russia by conducting military exercises involving thousands of NATO troops in Poland and Baltic states bordering Russia. This provocation is completely unnecessary for those not seeking another bogeyman.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: zorbman]
    #23572897 - 08/24/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:toast:


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: zorbman] * 1
    #23572922 - 08/24/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Its always about having a bogeyman. Just since the late 1800s its been a constant succession of bogeymen, from anarchists to communists to fascists, then back to communists for awhile.  Communists started to become less frightening, so a dash of terrorism was thrown in to wean the public onto this new threat. Then after the fall of the USSR, terrorism along with Baltic unrest became the word of the day until we could move to a full out "war on terror".  Now we've come back to the "russian threat".  its all so tiresome.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23574192 - 08/24/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here's a large list of voter suppression and poll problems in the US from the 2012 election alone.




None of my three are in that article. I raise political murder and imprisonment, gunfire at international observers, rigged votes, 30% turnout, carousel voting suppression of speech, press, and organization and you counter with voter ID laws and erroneous voting roll removal? No doubt, the issues in the US are serious and probably gave Bush the 2000 election, but there is a difference in magnitude for certain. In addition, that an American website (several websites and organizations) catalogues these is a credit. That shit'd get you run out of Russia

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Is it ever ok to violently overthrow a democratically elected leader, especially with the backing of the US?  Is that what democracy is all about?




What is that video supposed to prove? So some extreme pro-Russian politician predicted a civil war in already unstable and revolutionary conditions? He accuses the US embassy of sanctioning the teaching 300 of Ukrainians how to use computers and facebook... ooooooh scary. As if an American could teach an Eastern European anything about the internet. His accusation != proof. And the link directs to some conspiracy theory blog? Accusations of US lead ethnic cleansing and pro-Hitler indoctrination in 2014 Ukraine, yeah sure...

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia doesn't admit to having troops in Ukraine at this point, but there were plenty of Federal Security Service (FSB) "advisors" going back to December '13. The FSB's implication in key kidnappings, murders, and sniper attacks is rumors, as are any US involvement in Ukraine. Prove to me the 2014 revolution was a foreign plot in opposition to Ukrainian ideals.



The link above (with video evidence) is pretty damning proof.  The election results and the fact that people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine wanted no part of the new Government are proof that not all Ukrainians had the same "Ukrainian ideals".




You got me, there is definitely a split in Ukrainian opinion regarding Russia. What I meant to ask for was an argument that the revolution was entirely foreign to Ukraine. An admittedly impossible task

Quote:

Crumist said:
There is only a bit more information about Putin's finances (imagine the POTUS not having to disclose and divest every minute financial detail) Perhaps it is all propaganda, but I didn't make it up, the NYT, again, and Reuters, and Telegraph and some German paper did. I only skimmed the articles, and most of it is real boring dry stuff, but in the USA anything remotely close to this is !!corruption!!



I read the first three. 
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:The first article explains how money was transferred from an international bank to a local bank to protect it from US sanctions and the freezing of funds (I realize that critical detail was left out, as most readers are too lazy to research why that happened).  The second article said Russia is continuing to privatize its assets to bring additional revenue to the Government (is that a problem?)  The third article says Putin's daughter is very wealthy, which I never disputed and I already explained how Putin became wealthy.  I didn't bother to read the fourth and fifth because the first three don't really support your point.




I went back and read all articles and you don't find anything offensive in them? I'll give my own summaries in contrast to yours. 1. NYT - it-pays-to-be-putins-friend - the bank Putin owns is given extremely cheap state property and given free bailout money, also an obscuring shell. 3. Reuters - Putin’s daughter, a young billionaire and the president’s friends: a list of Putin's friends and family given extreme wealth by Putin's government, Putin's daughter has world class academics "co-author" her publications and now is head of a massive project and a state budget of several billion US. 2. NYT - Midas Touch in St. Petersburg: Friends of Putin Glow Brightly - self descriptive headline. 4. Telegraph - essentially an ad for a biography of Putin, has tidbits like the $1billion palace built by the gov't for a friend and when Putin personally stole that super bowl ring and that museum piece 5. Sued Deutsche - Panama papers reveal how Putin has concealed a tiny fraction of his fortune

I said: He, his family, and his close friends make lots of money on the decisions of Putin's government. In the US we would call that bald-faced corruption

Falcon91 said: Please cite the specifics of how Putin is doing this, and stop with the propaganda.

Then I link 5 articles and you dismiss them. Well within your rights, but this is tiring. Whoever the hell is reading will decide for themseves.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Here we worry about Exon-Mobile's influence purchased with a donation. In Putin's Russia, Gazprom's CEO is the head of state with all the insider trading tips and a cadre of industry barons he bestows favors upon.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Welcome to capitalism, my friend.  Darrel Issa (as an example) was a CEO now worth a half a billion dollars and is passing laws here in the US to enrich himself further.  Is it wrong for Russia to copy our model?




Differences between Issa (and other US scumbags) and Putin that are important to me. Issa is a nobody out of the spotlight, Putin is head honcho. Issa *was* CEO, Putin has neither disclosed nor divested as President, in fact he probably many plenty of acquisitions as president. Issa is worth .5 billion, Putin worth 20-200 bil (again, no one knows) And biggest point, I (and most Americans, likely) detest Issa and the revolving door politicians/lobbyists, but you are defending Putin and denying his corruption. This is not capitalism, it is theft on an epic scale.

political corruption: (wikipedia) Political corruption is the use of powers by government officials for illegitimate private gain. An illegal act by an officeholder constitutes political corruption only if the act is directly related to their official duties, is done under color of law or involves trading in influence.

Forms of corruption vary, but include bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, gombeenism, parochialism patronage, influence peddling, graft, and embezzlement. Misuse of government power for other purposes, such as repression of political opponents and general police brutality, is also considered political corruption.


Quote:

Crumist said:
By Estonia or Lithuania's moment of need, I mean I understand these former Soviet states enjoy their independence but are terrified by Russia's involvement in 13 conflicts in former ssr's and now annexation.  And a new faction in us politics that approves military conquest, corrupt elections, press suppression, opposition suppression.  Yes, the US has been in many more conflicts in that time frame, but Im not currently making a morality judgment of such conflicts (truly though, they suck) but trying to illustrate how really fucking scared the tiny Baltic countries are.



They're "terrified"?  That sounds like propaganda.  Tell me about real Russian action.  The only country they should be scared of is the US.  As has already been pointed out, Ukrainian lives have gone to hell after the US backed coup.

US state media on Estonia

I can find similarly gloom articles about the US and Russia. Ukraine must of had a revolution because of how great a paradise it was beforehand.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Im all for "self determination" and agree with Donetsk independence and Crimea going to Russia, but it was done all wrong. Russia violently occupies Crimea and holds a referendum over the opposition of nearly the entire international community.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:But it wasn't a violent occupation of Crimea.  No one died from a military attack there.  And I think by "over the opposition of the international community" you really mean "over the opposition of the US and its allies".




There were deaths in Crimea, but more to the point, Yanukovich even as acting head of state, didn't have authority to invite Russian troops into Ukraine. Nor was any public invitation made to Russia. The un-uniformed "little green men", and then the regular Russian army invaded sovereign Ukraine. Important buildings in Kiev were forcibly held and the legitimate Ukrainian army was driven from its forts throughout the Crimea. The Ukrainian navy was fired upon by Russian warships in warning not to leave port.

Is Ukraine a sovereign nation or Russian property?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Both options on the ballot lead to a Russian annexation of Crimea and again, the region is under foreign occupation. The justification is concern for the welfare of ethnic Russians, just like the Anschluss.



Ah, the Hitler comparison that always gets thrown in (propaganda).  :smirk:

At least mine is somewhat relevant, Your Washingtonsblog.com link uses the word nazi like 20 times in reference to the US's role is Russia.

This was a violent takeover of the Ukrainian Government, by profoundly racist anti-Russian nationalist Ukrainians, who were in the pay of the U.S. Government. And, it sparked such terror into the hearts of Russians and of Ukraine’s minorities (who were especially large a proportion of the Crimean population), so that, first, Crimea broke away and declared its no longer being a part of Ukraine (it would return to Russia, of which it had been a part from 1783-1954, almost its entire modern existence); and, then, starting on May 9th of 2014, a Ukrainian civil war broke out when the U.S.-installed Government of Ukraine actually invaded the regions (other than Crimea) that rejected it; and the United States oversaw and sent even more mercenaries to this extremely bloody ethnic cleansing campaign to get rid of the residents in the specific region (called “Donbass” and shown in dark purple on this map) of Ukraine that had voted 90% for Yanukovych.

This was the first outright nazi action ever undertaken by any American President. Ever. That’s how bad it is, as a historical precedent for this country. It is being carried out by proud racist fascists (nazis), who are specifically admirers and followers of Adolf Hitler’s Nazis, which were the first, the original, nazi political party, and which are the pattern for Obama’s operatives in Ukraine — the perpetrators of this coup and its subsequent (also totally illegal) ethnic-cleansing campaign. (For examples: all these firebombings that Obama’s forces are doing to the residents in Donbass are against international law.) These Ukrainian nazis even send their children to nazi schools where kids are trained to hate Russians. Obama uses these people; he found this extermination of pro-Russians in Ukraine to be necessary; so as to get rid of the voters whose votes had made Yanukovych President. In Donbass, 90% of the voters had voted for Yanukovych; so, this was the prime area to be ethnically cleansed (and sometimes they’re driven at night to the countryside and shot at the edge of a ditch). If those voters were ever again allowed to vote in Ukraine, then a pro-Russian government could again be elected in Ukraine, and Obama’s action in that country (his turning it rabidly anti-Russian in its policies) could thus turn out to have been a mere waste for him — just a temporary matter. The strategy here is carefully thought-out, and this is also one reason why it has the support of almost every member of the U.S. House and Senate (even though 67% of the American public oppose it). A similar strategy would be as if Obama were to firebomb and otherwise lay waste Utah because it had voted in the 2012 election 73% for Romney and only 25% for Obama, and so killing the residents there would increase the future chances of electing a Democratic President in the U.S. But in Donbass, Yanukovych had actually won 90% of the vote, not a mere 73%; and, besides, nobody in the U.S. and its allies is even so much as criticizing Obama’s exterminations of the residents in Donbass (the people that Obama’s Ukrainian Government calls “terrorists” for simply living there), but instead Vladimir Putin is being criticized in the West for his “Russian aggression,” because he helps those forlorn people defend themselves from the Obama team’s firebombs, clusterbombs, bullets, and other killing-machines. (And here’s one of the Obama team’s firebombings of the city of Donetsk just a few days ago.)

The nazi United States Government today is ideologically, by its nazi actions, at war against the democratic United States that, by its democratic actions, had fought and shed blood to defeat Hitler’s Nazis in World War II. (And — unlike the firebombing of Nazi Dresden in February 1945 — Donetsk and the Obama team’s other Donbass targets are anti-nazi; the U.S. is this time the nazi invader, via its local Ukrainian surrogates. This is not to say that any firebombing should be allowed, but just to say that America has ideologically switched sides since then, which is atrocious.) Of course, there have been nazis in America even before Hitler came to power in Germany; but they were not running the U.S. Government until now; and, now, for the first time ever, the U.S. has itself a nazi Government, which is backed up by nazi American think tanks and media, etc., the entire panoply of political horror. The chief difference from Hitler’s (other than that this nazi government hasn’t yet gone as far toward its ultimate objectives as Hitler’s did) is that this one hates and seeks to destroy mainly Russians, whereas Hitler’s focused mainly against Jews. However, this one seems to be just about as obsessive about eliminating Russians as Hitler’s was about eliminating Jews. In fact, Obama’s hatred of Russia explains not only his Ukrainian policy but also his Syrian policy. Furthermore, Iran is also allied with Russia, and American policy there too might partly be a reflection of Obama’s bigotry against Russia — it should instead be a reflection of strictly U.S.-Iranian issues. Understanding Obama’s foreign policies without recognizing his vicious (and until fairly recently, secret) anti-Russian obsession, which is proven by his actions (not his rhetoric, which is basically dishonest and should simply be ignored except as his PR) can’t be done: it produces only misunderstanding (which is the real purpose behind most of his rhetoric).


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So if a group of angry Democratic protesters stormed the White House, Bush should be expected to give up his Presidency?  Interesting perspective.




Lets invoke Godwins again. Hitler was democratically elected. The holocaust was entirely legal. Resistance to the Nazi's was illegal. You would support a madman mowing down unarmed protesters in the street? That is an interesting perspective. Lets say Hillary is elected and immediately signs the TPP. Protests at the white house escalate to snipers on the white house roof shooting at random. Youd better believe Id violently resist that democratically elected government, not only will Clinton be removed from office, she will have her day in court.

Russian aggression = Ukraine, Transnistra, Georgia, Chechnya. Former soviet states behave as good puppets or Russia spanks them while the world watches. Should the modern world be a community of sovereign states or the property of the biggest bullies?

Does "Hillary want[s] us to hate on Russia"? Yes but that is the American tradition.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23574290 - 08/24/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Crumist, nice to meet you.

I would like to know what you think about my hypothesis regarding Russia being unable to move further with any designs on eastern europe because of insufficient funds. 
I outlined it briefly in a post above in case you missed it.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23574337 - 08/24/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Howd'y'do to you to.

I agree Russia would struggle to fight off several insurgent forces and even without further expansion there are several groups within the current borders with potential to violently resist Moscow. Occupation of a people is expensive, and Russia ain't rich. If you properly oppress and terrify and evict and cleanse, you just might be able to acquire territory and resources. I agree Russia wouldn't be able to annex any hostile territory, but that doesn't convince me the international community should permit the attempt.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23574553 - 08/24/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

How do you feel about the proposed U.S. annexation of Mexico?


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23574935 - 08/25/16 02:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
Russia prohibits observers, harasses voters, and has a turnout around 30%.



Here's a large list of voter suppression and poll problems in the US from the 2012 election alone.



None of my three are in that article.



There's actually two examples about blocking observers in the article - one in Ohio and one in Texas (search for "observers") and there's at least two examples of voter harassment in the article.  See updates 12 and 13.

Quote:

Crumist said:
that an American website (several websites and organizations) catalogues these is a credit. That shit'd get you run out of Russia



Russia's constitution guarantees freedom of the press, unless it contains extremist content.  I was just there, and was astounded by the amount of anti-Putin news.  It won't get you kicked out.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Is it ever ok to violently overthrow a democratically elected leader, especially with the backing of the US?  Is that what democracy is all about?



What is that video supposed to prove? So some extreme pro-Russian politician predicted a civil war in already unstable and revolutionary conditions? He accuses the US embassy of sanctioning the teaching 300 of Ukrainians how to use computers and facebook... ooooooh scary. As if an American could teach an Eastern European anything about the internet. His accusation != proof.



I think you missed the link in the very first sentence with a taped conversation of US officials planning Ukrainian governance after the coup.  Perhaps this timeline is more convincing:  A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup

Quote:

Crumist said:
Accusations of US lead ethnic cleansing and pro-Hitler indoctrination in 2014 Ukraine, yeah sure...



Ask Google whether large numbers Ukrainians are neo-nazi or not.  And do you deny that Ukraine is killing Russian speaking citizens in Donbass?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please cite the specifics of how Putin is doing this, and stop with the propaganda.



Then I link 5 articles and you dismiss them. Well within your rights, but this is tiring. Whoever the hell is reading will decide for themseves.



Fair enough, I simply pointed out that your articles weren't telling the whole story (for example the first article forgot to mention that the reason Putin transferred his money to a Russian bank was to protect it from US sanctions and the freezing of funds, which is EXACTLY what the US did after the funds were moved.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Welcome to capitalism, my friend.  Darrel Issa (as an example) was a CEO now worth a half a billion dollars and is passing laws here in the US to enrich himself further.  Is it wrong for Russia to copy our model?




Differences between Issa (and other US scumbags) and Putin that are important to me. Issa is a nobody out of the spotlight, Putin is head honcho. Issa *was* CEO, Putin has neither disclosed nor divested as President, in fact he probably many plenty of acquisitions as president. Issa is worth .5 billion, Putin worth 20-200 bil (again, no one knows) And biggest point, I (and most Americans, likely) detest Issa and the revolving door politicians/lobbyists, but you are defending Putin and denying his corruption. This is not capitalism, it is theft on an epic scale.



I agree - I'm just saying it already happens in the US, and if Trump becomes president, then we'll have a roughly equivalent situation.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Tell me about real Russian action.  The only country they should be scared of is the US.  As has already been pointed out, Ukrainian lives have gone to hell after the US backed coup.



US state media on Estonia
I can find similarly gloom articles about the US and Russia.



I think the comments at the bottom of your link do a great job of addressing this, but I asked for what action Russia took against other countries, not whether other countries were scared of Russia. 

Quote:

Crumist said:
Ukraine must of had a revolution because of how great a paradise it was beforehand.



It wasn't great, but it was much better than it is today.

Quote:

Crumist said:
There were deaths in Crimea, but more to the point, Yanukovich even as acting head of state, didn't have authority to invite Russian troops into Ukraine.



There were six deaths resulting from violent protests, and Russia had a military base in Crimea with the right to send up to 25,000 troops into Crimea (see Kharkiv Pact)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Nor was any public invitation made to Russia. The un-uniformed "little green men", and then the regular Russian army invaded sovereign Ukraine. Important buildings in Kiev were forcibly held and the legitimate Ukrainian army was driven from its forts throughout the Crimea. The Ukrainian navy was fired upon by Russian warships in warning not to leave port.

Is Ukraine a sovereign nation or Russian property?



Is your argument that Russia shouldn't have defended it's naval base in Crimea (which it had a right to keep per the Kharkiv Pact)?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
Both options on the ballot lead to a Russian annexation of Crimea and again, the region is under foreign occupation. The justification is concern for the welfare of ethnic Russians, just like the Anschluss.



Ah, the Hitler comparison that always gets thrown in (propaganda).  :smirk:



At least mine is somewhat relevant, Your Washingtonsblog.com link uses the word nazi like 20 times in reference to the US's role is Russia.



But it's not very relevant because even without the Anschluss, Hitler could still have taken Austria through war if he wanted.  It did little to change the situation.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Lets say Hillary is elected and immediately signs the TPP. Protests at the white house escalate to snipers on the white house roof shooting at random. Youd better believe Id violently resist that democratically elected government, not only will Clinton be removed from office, she will have her day in court.



A leaked call showed that snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders, so it appears you're arguing against them.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Russian aggression = Ukraine, Transnistra, Georgia, Chechnya. Former soviet states behave as good puppets or Russia spanks them while the world watches. Should the modern world be a community of sovereign states or the property of the biggest bullies?



I know a lot about those countries as well, and the Western media only tells one side.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23575754 - 08/25/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We've done it before and I would hope the UN, China, Russia, the EU, Cuba, someone would resist us. If I understand you correctly, you're trying to show how further Russian expansion is ridiculous/impossible, but I wouldn't put it past president Trump if the cartels bombed Trump tower or his golf course, or Hillary if some kid hacks the rest of her emails and flees south


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23576071 - 08/25/16 01:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Was your last reply to me or ballsalsa (I'm not sure what you meant by "we've done "IT" before")?

I think our discussion is getting quite large and time consuming, and to keep others interested I think we should focus on one point at a time.  I'll post an example of where I think you're not seeing the big picture, and I invite you to do the same for my posts.

You posted a New York Times article about how Putin transferred money from a large international bank to a smaller Russian bank owned by acquaintances of Putin as evidence of "corruption".  I countered by stating the move was to protect Russian money from Western sanctions and the freezing of funds (which did happen).  Which is the more compelling argument?  Did I leave out an important point from your side of the story?  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23576315 - 08/25/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

My last post was in reply to Ballsalsa, I don't know how to ended up redirecting to Falcon91Wolvrn03

What article are you reading? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/world/europe/it-pays-to-be-putins-friend-.html?_r=1 ; Are you hitting a paywall or something? There is no large international bank mentioned explicitly in the article, and the smaller bank is called Bank Rossiya.

The transfer I believe you are referring to is only mentioned in the first few sentences. And the intent of this transfer is not to protect the assets from sanctions. It is Bank Rossiya being sanctioned and Putin's government essentially gifted it billions in State property to mitigate the damage.

The rest of the article involves numerous examples of the ways the Russian gov't has made decisions in favor of the bank to the tune of many billions $USD ie. corruption.

If you'd like to argue some sort of moral superiority Russia has to the USA, whatever. I'm for opposing aggression in all its forms no matter who the aggressor is.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23577423 - 08/25/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
There is no large international bank mentioned explicitly in the article, and the smaller bank is called Bank Rossiya.



That's my point.  The New York Times left out a lot of important details.  I lost a lot of respect for them after their overly negative (and misleading) coverage of Sanders and Trump to help boost Hillary.

Quote:

Crumist said:
The transfer I believe you are referring to is only mentioned in the first few sentences. And the intent of this transfer is not to protect the assets from sanctions. It is Bank Rossiya being sanctioned and Putin's government essentially gifted it billions in State property to mitigate the damage.



It is both to protect Russian assets from being frozen abroad, AND to help mitigate the damage to Bank Rossiya (as you correctly pointed out).

I don't really see damage mitigation as "corruption".  The US bailed out many large banks during the Great Recession, and many of them were responsible for the recession in the first place.  THAT is more corrupt to me (though I understand it had to be done because they were 'too big to fail').  We also bailed out GM and other companies, whom I'm sure Obama has connections with.  :shrug:


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23581558 - 08/26/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hillary wants us to hate on Russia but she enabled them to corner the uranium market for 2.35million dollars to the Clinton foundation?  Something must have pissed her off.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23581577 - 08/26/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't really see damage mitigation as "corruption".  The US bailed out many large banks during the Great Recession, and many of them were responsible for the recession in the first place.  THAT is more corrupt to me (though I understand it had to be done because they were 'too big to fail').  We also bailed out GM and other companies, whom I'm sure Obama has connections with.  :shrug:




You have a source for that? I've already dug up mine.


--------------------
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23582360 - 08/27/16 02:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't really see damage mitigation as "corruption".  The US bailed out many large banks during the Great Recession, and many of them were responsible for the recession in the first place.  THAT is more corrupt to me (though I understand it had to be done because they were 'too big to fail').  We also bailed out GM and other companies, whom I'm sure Obama has connections with.  :shrug:




You have a source for that? I've already dug up mine.



A source for what?  That the US bailed out our own big banks when they were in financial trouble?  That the banks were responsible for the recession?  That corporate cronyism is a real thing?


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/27/16 02:41 AM)


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23582804 - 08/27/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I dont think its productive to keep putting bandaids on a hemophiliac like our financial system.

Let it bleed out, we can get another one.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: spock]
    #23582858 - 08/27/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The first Gulf War technically was sticking up for Kuwait, when Saddam invaded.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23582896 - 08/27/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't really see damage mitigation as "corruption".  The US bailed out many large banks during the Great Recession, and many of them were responsible for the recession in the first place.  THAT is more corrupt to me (though I understand it had to be done because they were 'too big to fail').  We also bailed out GM and other companies, whom I'm sure Obama has connections with.  :shrug:




You have a source for that? I've already dug up mine.



A source for what?  That the US bailed out our own big banks when they were in financial trouble?  That the banks were responsible for the recession?  That corporate cronyism is a real thing?




Sorry, I thought it was apparent. I meant a source for "whom I'm sure Obama has connections with."


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist]
    #23583823 - 08/27/16 02:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't really see damage mitigation as "corruption".  The US bailed out many large banks during the Great Recession, and many of them were responsible for the recession in the first place.  THAT is more corrupt to me (though I understand it had to be done because they were 'too big to fail').  We also bailed out GM and other companies, whom I'm sure Obama has connections with.  :shrug:




You have a source for that? I've already dug up mine.



A source for what?  That the US bailed out our own big banks when they were in financial trouble?  That the banks were responsible for the recession?  That corporate cronyism is a real thing?




Sorry, I thought it was apparent. I meant a source for "whom I'm sure Obama has connections with."



GM's union donated over $4 million to the democratic party in 2008 alone and they got a sweet deal from the GM bailout (though I'm ok with that as I support the unions).


The irony of this whole thread is that after the DNC showed favoritism toward Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders during the presidential primaries, Hillary pointed the finger at Russia to deflect attention.  All the corporate media and her loyal followers looked away from the scandal and started hating on Russia just like Hillary asked, though it still hasn't even been proven that Putin was behind the leak.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: ChinChiller]
    #23583908 - 08/27/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChinChiller said:
The first Gulf War technically was sticking up for Kuwait, when Saddam invaded.




War for OIL!:psycrankey:


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23584039 - 08/27/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hillary wants us to stick it to Russia, but she enabled them to corner the uranium market. LOL.

Wiki leaks is now letting out that Hillary, during her state department tenure, that over 40% of her direct face to face meetings with (mainly foreign entitites) were from people who donated a total of $150 Million to the clinton foundation.  talking about corrupt--this sounds like a banana republic!

One case was some pakistani dude who for a paltry 150,000 USD donatin got a face to face, and got fast tracked to something like 160 Mil in US taxpayer funds for projects in Pakistan.

Give me a fucking break--and people are saying Trump is the problem?  Jesus christ, people must have swallowed the stupid pill.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23584481 - 08/27/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
GM's union donated over $4 million to the democratic party in 2008 alone and they got a sweet deal from the GM bailout (though I'm ok with that as I support the unions).


The irony of this whole thread is that after the DNC showed favoritism toward Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders during the presidential primaries, Hillary pointed the finger at Russia to deflect attention.  All the corporate media and her loyal followers looked away from the scandal and started hating on Russia just like Hillary asked, though it still hasn't even been proven that Putin was behind the leak.




The donation to Obama was a whopping $27,340 , remember I gave evidence of all these personal connections (bailouts, awarded contracts & positions, favorable gov't decisions) between Putin and individuals heading large Russo-corps and you claimed the same of the financial bailout? (different bailout altogether) Also, the article is from 2009, written by Newt Gingrich. In retrospect the auto-bailout "worked" and it is relatively popular across the board (I for one would have like to see the banks and auto industry look elsewhere for their bailout, the US people needn't nor can afford to assume excess risk that profits multi-billionaire CEOs)

And, I, for one don't see the big issue with the DNC's favoritism. Hillary won by a large margin and did better in primary states. Plus, was it not obvious the RNC favored anyone but Trump? And another key point guess who it was who suggested the Russians hack Hillary's email? Who was it who kept self-inflicting wounds to draw attention off of Hillary's interview with the FBI? Who was it that went on TV and says we shouldn't back our NATO allies or we should recognize Crimea as legitimately Russian? Who hired Manafort for the prominent role of campaign manager, best known for his work for Yanukovych?

TRUMP.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist] * 1
    #23588770 - 08/28/16 11:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
GM's union donated over $4 million to the democratic party in 2008 alone and they got a sweet deal from the GM bailout (though I'm ok with that as I support the unions).



The donation to Obama was a whopping $27,340



Who do you think got the other $4 million that went to the Democratic party after Obama eliminated Hillary?

Quote:

Crumist said:
I, for one don't see the big issue with the DNC's favoritism.



The DNC is required to be neutral.  This scandal cost Debbie Wasserman Schulz and three other people their jobs in the DNC, and will likely cost her reelection.

You think corruption is no "big issue" if it favors Hillary?  :shrug:

Quote:

Crumist said:
Hillary won by a large margin



How much do you think the DNC favoritism cost Bernie?  Maybe 4 or 5 points?  That's the election right there.

Quote:

Crumist said:
...another key point guess who it was who suggested the Russians hack Hillary's email?

TRUMP.



Trump wants to find more corruption in the Hillary campaign, and you're upset.  Is it because you think there's a lot more of it and she's got something to hide???

Quote:

Crumist said:
Who was it that went on TV and says we shouldn't back our NATO allies or we should recognize Crimea as legitimately Russian? Who hired Manafort for the prominent role of campaign manager, best known for his work for Yanukovych?

TRUMP.



THAT'S one of the two reasons I'd vote for Trump (the other being his anti-TPP stance).  I'm not a war hawk.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23591257 - 08/29/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I do not think anyone is war mongering.  It's bad for 2 nuclear nations to really get down and dirty.  Someones gonna pop the big 'ole A-bomb if it crosses a line.  If anyone wants some love it's everybody.  Surely some soldiers on the European front want you to not be against them.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23591379 - 08/29/16 07:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Surely some soldiers on the European front want you to not be against them.



I'm not against them at all (I served in the military for 8 years).  I'm against the politicians that put them on Russia's border.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23594050 - 08/30/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Surely some soldiers on the European front want you to not be against them.



I'm not against them at all (I served in the military for 8 years).  I'm against the politicians that put them on Russia's border.




There's a hole bunch of those.  I don't know what would happen if they were not there.  Less buffer zone I imagine.  Borders moving more west.  But who the F knows?


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23594061 - 08/30/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Let's take a look at current monetary systems.

Does one really believe the Cold War era east vs west balogne?


The global trading and  large economies have formed into one entity.


Any east vs west is a clear facade for the masses and if you don't believe me then show me how they are not connected


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Maroon]
    #23594075 - 08/30/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
Let's take a look at current monetary systems.

Does one really believe the Cold War era east vs west balogne?


The global trading and  large economies have formed into one entity.


Any east vs west is a clear facade for the masses and if you don't believe me then show me how they are not connected




No more Western Dairy going into Russia.  Russia had a cow shortage couple years back.  Not sure if they require more today.

I don't even want to be involved in international trade.  You need a team of full time lawyers to get through it all.  Send the wrong guy on ebay some money and you broke the law.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23597519 - 08/31/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Douglas Howard]
    #23598363 - 08/31/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Lol, infowars.  The American version of RT news.

Hillary held a high state office, she knows more about the daily Intel about Russia.  It is not like Russia is a soft little teddy bear.  They have more nukes and are allying with china.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #23599134 - 08/31/16 09:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

To be fair, the closest US analogue to RT would probably be NPR or PBS


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Crumist] * 1
    #23599261 - 08/31/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:

Alex Jones is a conspiracy theory nut.  He gets a few things right the same way a dead clock is right twice a day, but InfoWars is generally an unreliable "news" source.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23599499 - 08/31/16 11:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Hillary wants us to hate on Russia [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23600121 - 09/01/16 06:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:whathesaid:

Alex Jones is a conspiracy theory nut.  He gets a few things right the same way a dead clock is right twice a day, but InfoWars is generally an unreliable "news" source.



It is already known that the other networks like CBS, NBC and ABC; that they are not good sources to receive good information from; that it has been proven that they are under the control of the establishment.  By the way things look, that everyone will be starting to get their News from off of the internet. Pretty soon that these networks will be consider a joke, unless they start delaying the real truth. Long ago, the Press had lots of power, that no one never toy around with them. Whatever they had reported, people had listen. But now they has lost that power, because of them delaying disinformation for corporate america. I do not even look for information on these networks anymore, except that I do watches Fox News, they seem to delay the truth. But I believes that corporate america had done this to these networks so that they can take away their power that they have had in the past. But now I believe that corporate america want the people to turn from these networks while they builds up a network of their own on the internet, a network that the people can trust. They are doing this because it cost too much money on advertisement and etc.., and which that they create their own and put information out their free of charge. But first that they will have to wean the people off from television's news, and detour them onto the internet media.


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