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Offlineravenfeeder
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Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased
    #23494725 - 07/31/16 06:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hey everyone,

I've recently tried at some Pan cam Sandose trays, which continuously contaminated near full colonization, always/mostly on the side where the substrate and tray wall meets, and I can see this due to using transparent trays. I'm pretty sure it's not due to not using a liner, as I'm sure the substrate will still shrink away from the liner as time passes? I've been using wheat berries as a spawn, and they didn't seem too happy, and being so nutritious, I reckon that could be the reason it kept contaminating before nearly being fully colonized.

Now I've tried oats, and it looked like it enjoyed it thoroughly more, colonizing it thicker and more aggressively/vigorously, and after pasteurizing Horse manure/Vermiculite/Gypsum/Hydrated Lime (75%/25%/5%/1%) at field capacity for 90 minutes between 140 and 170°F, I've made up trays (wiped out with 70% Isopropyl alcohol) roughly between 1½ and 2" thick, with a spawn ratio of 1:2. I also tried to avoid sprinkling the spawn near the edges as I layered it with manure in the trays in front of my flow hood, hoping this will help fight contamination near the edges, but here and there a grain still ends up near the edge, but one can't be to fussy now I guess... :tongue:



Below are pictures of 2 out of the 6 trays I've made up, 8 days later, seeming fully colonized (no contamination yet!:dancer:) and ready for a casing layer which I've made up with Peat moss/Vermiculite/Gypsum/Hydrated Lime (60%/40%/5%/2%) at field capacity with a pH of 8, pasteurized also between 140 and 170°F for 90 minutes, and then applied to the surface of the Pan cam substrate at a thickness of ⅛ to ⅓" in thickness (varies greatly due to the surface covered irregularly by 'clouds' of mycelium), misted until glistening, and placed into (functional) sgfc's at a temperature range of 71 to 81°F.



I try to FAE three to four times a day, but I also have a duct with holes running past my two sgfc's, and it blows in fresh air from outside for 5 minutes every 6th hour, so I hope this can only be beneficial...

Also, I've taken some close-ups of the surface, because here and there I see some droplets form on the mycelium, and I hope it isn't Verticillium? :confused: Another reason for the 'weaker' genetics might be due to the Pan cam print coming from fsre.nl, therefore perhaps whomever sent them the print took a 'dirty' print? :crazy:



Edited by ravenfeeder (07/31/16 08:02 AM)


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23494820 - 07/31/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

u won't know you have vert till its too late for the most part.

dont rely on ur hood for open air spawning.  good spawn and proper pasteurization is all you need. plus u don't want to bump into it by accident.

I don't use liners in trays really, and thats what I've done pans the most in.

wheat isn't "too nutritious" for spawn. so its not that either.

"weaker genetics" from shady spores isn't really thing either (maybe in random, isolated cases with crazy inbred cubes or something). mislabeling, yea, contaminated, yea, but not "weak spores".  maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.

ur pictures didn't show up.

I would lower ur peat pasteurization to 30 minutes, and try hard not to go above 140f.  this won't help with pinning, but IME, will help with avoiding casing surface molds.

90-120 minutes btw140-170 for poo is good tho.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23494834 - 07/31/16 07:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Why the short pasteurization time for peat? :takingnotes:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: weetsie] * 1
    #23494876 - 07/31/16 08:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

preserving the microbial population as much as possible to hold the fort while the grow runs out.

poo has a different population of microbes (and bugs/eggs that need to be destroyed by heat), because its much more nutritious than peat and able to support competition better.  since its being spawned (most likely with a very high ratio of spawn making the time its exposed to the elements shorter) and colonized, the mycelium will "hold the fort" for the duration of the grow, so it won't need an army of microbes to help it combat any potential competition.


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Offlineravenfeeder
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23494888 - 07/31/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

weetsie said:
Why the short pasteurization time for peat? :takingnotes:




...Because Pasteurization duration is usually 60 to 90 minutes once you reach 140°F, and longer is simply counter-productive?

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
u won't know you have vert till its too late for the most part.

dont rely on ur hood for open air spawning.  good spawn and proper pasteurization is all you need. plus u don't want to bump into it by accident.

I don't use liners in trays really, and thats what I've done pans the most in.

wheat isn't "too nutritious" for spawn. so its not that either.

"weaker genetics" from shady spores isn't really thing either (maybe in random, isolated cases with crazy inbred cubes or something). mislabeling, yea, contaminated, yea, but not "weak spores".  maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.

ur pictures didn't show up.

I would lower ur peat pasteurization to 30 minutes, and try hard not to go above 140f.  this won't help with pinning, but IME, will help with avoiding casing surface molds.

90-120 minutes btw140-170 for poo is good tho.




Thanks for all the handy info blinding! I've just uploaded and attached the pictures (uploading from the mobile can be such a drag!:thumbdown:). I feared my pasteurization might be too high, as manure is such a delicate substrate (yet the best), and the wheat I think is just too plump, and bursts easily in the process, and I think that might also easily open up a window for contaminants. The last two lines are a bit unclear to me as they seem to contradict each other :stoned:which one is it?


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23494900 - 07/31/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I do poo for 2hours btw 140-170.

i do peat for 30 minutes at 140 (realistically tho, 90% of the time it will go to 150 just by accident)

ur grains don't look burst to me, but yea too many burst can be an instigator

I had those spots too with cambo.


if u already cased it, and its that white, it is completely overlaid.  u can try re-casing, or it may still pin from the edges.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23494924 - 07/31/16 08:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

it looks like mushrooms growing on a cloud  :aweyeah:

Thanks for the info on peat, I'm casing my pan cambos in a couple of days and would of probably done something like 150f for 90mins.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: weetsie]
    #23494952 - 07/31/16 08:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

good luck man. they are very aggressive. I got overlay every time I grew them…they basically almost overlaid the second casing too by the time it fruited.

definitely an epic trip tho. i tried 2g for the first time last week. spectacular closed eye….like a waking dream.  seems like the kinda place where what you're looking for finds YOU:mindblown:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23494974 - 07/31/16 09:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Useful thread guys, thank you.

BL, you mentioned senescence being a possible problem, do some species weaken quicken than others?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23495010 - 07/31/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i didn't mention the S word in here.

but yea, I do think there can be differences in how long it takes for strains to senesce.  would be interesting to do a test. I dunno if its true or not, but seems that way just from growing. some clones just don't do well after a certain amount of time.  could be random thing that happened in storage tho (freezing, unknown contam, etc).


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23495033 - 07/31/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:thisisgonnabegood:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23495036 - 07/31/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.





Ah. So your talking about a poor isolate, basically? But thats likely not going to be a problem if you always select agar showing good signs of growth?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23495154 - 07/31/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

you cant see fruiting potential on agar, all you can see is speed of growth.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23495165 - 07/31/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

be it a clone you just took, or an MS isolate u just transferred, you would still have to test it out.  good growth on agar would be clean growth.

you can't predict fruiting performance from growth pattern on agar.

if the plate fills out and pins, then that can be a good indication of its potential to fruit, but I still wouldn't say for certain until I ran it out normally.


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Offlineravenfeeder
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23497211 - 07/31/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
preserving the microbial population as much as possible to hold the fort while the grow runs out.

poo has a different population of microbes (and bugs/eggs that need to be destroyed by heat), because its much more nutritious than peat and able to support competition better.  since its being spawned (most likely with a very high ratio of spawn making the time its exposed to the elements shorter) and colonized, the mycelium will "hold the fort" for the duration of the grow, so it won't need an army of microbes to help it combat any potential competition.




This is interesting, thanks! I'll try pasteurizing my manure for longer and the casing shorter :bigblunt:
Quote:

blindingleaf said:
I do poo for 2hours btw 140-170.

i do peat for 30 minutes at 140 (realistically tho, 90% of the time it will go to 150 just by accident)

ur grains don't look burst to me, but yea too many burst can be an instigator

I had those spots too with cambo.


if u already cased it, and its that white, it is completely overlaid.  u can try re-casing, or it may still pin from the edges.




The pic of the grains is the oats spawn, on which the Pan cam mycelium seems way happier, below is a picture of the same mycelium on wheat berries, not so hapy:



Wow those Pan cams looks happy! Nice shot!:eek: It does look pretty similar to my substrate's surface, except I only applied the casing layer yesterday, and placed it directly into fruiting conditions, so I don't have any overlay (yet) as it still needs to colonize through it (the pics of my colonized trays are still un-cased). How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? :awesome:


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Offlineravenfeeder
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23497233 - 07/31/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
you cant see fruiting potential on agar, all you can see is speed of growth.




Always the biggest bummer to me, as I wish they were 100% correlated :sporedrop:



Quote:

blindingleaf said:
i didn't mention the S word in here.

but yea, I do think there can be differences in how long it takes for strains to senesce.  would be interesting to do a test. I dunno if its true or not, but seems that way just from growing. some clones just don't do well after a certain amount of time.  could be random thing that happened in storage tho (freezing, unknown contam, etc).




The "S"-word!:tongue2: Has it become a mycological term no-one wants to hear about ever as it almost seems similar to a omen?  :ignorethetroll: I try all my isolates which grows aggressively, as I know any Pan-species are supposed relatively fast, and slow/dodgy-looking ones I toss.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23497320 - 07/31/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
    #23497361 - 08/01/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r35l said:
i...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos




:notamused:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
    #23497377 - 08/01/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I've just cased another 3 fully colonized trays, also containing the oats-spawn, and here are some more pictures of the surface just before I cased it, and close-ups of what I thought was Verticillium, but I was mistaken and meant Mycogone perniciosa? :badshroom:
Hopefully some will fruit even if it is infected, because all I want at this stage is to make a couple of new spore prints from which I can hopefully isolate new, vigorous and clean cultures.

Ps. I'm considering ordering a Panaeolus cyanescens var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche Hawke's revamped site, mushrooms.com, as I'm sure he'll have good, clean prints with desirable genetic properties, and it seems he has a great reputation around here, and he was so helpful via e-mail when I sent him a question regarding shipping prints safely and low-key to where I am :dancer:

:mushroom2:





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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23497512 - 08/01/16 02:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ravenfeeder said:

Ps. I'm considering ordering a Panaeolus cyanescens var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche Hawke's revamped site, mushrooms.com, as I'm sure he'll have good, clean prints with desirable genetic properties, and it seems he has a great reputation around here, and he was so helpful via e-mail when I sent him a question regarding shipping prints safely and low-key to where I am :dancer:






Prints dont have desirable genetic properties....we need to isolate to get the desirable part....


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Offlineravenfeeder
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23497534 - 08/01/16 02:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That is true, but the print will be of a high standard due to the vendor doing a professional job of making and selling spores, whereas some random grower in the world who sent the print to fsre, might not take such precautions to make a high quality print :smile:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23497543 - 08/01/16 03:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No, wrong. In terms of genetics there is no such thing as a high quality print. Spores will always result in a genetic crapshoot...this is why we isolate desirable strains on agar....

A spore print from a vendor could be cleaner than a spore print from a user, but this isn't important since even vendor spores aren't harvested under sterile conditions. Even syringes from vendors are unreliable and often dirty. For this reason they should always be put on agar first.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23497587 - 08/01/16 04:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? :awesome:




A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.

Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:


And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:


And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:

Also see my sig for another example.


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Edited by Peacefrog (08/01/16 04:20 AM)


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Offlineravenfeeder
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
    #23497602 - 08/01/16 04:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocyBen17 said:
No, wrong. In terms of genetics there is no such thing as a high quality print. Spores will always result in a genetic crapshoot...this is why we isolate desirable strains on agar....

A spore print from a vendor could be cleaner than a spore print from a user, but this isn't important since even vendor spores aren't harvested under sterile conditions. Even syringes from vendors are unreliable and often dirty. For this reason they should always be put on agar first.




Gotcha :thumbup: I shan't argue with that!

Quote:

Peacefrog said:
Quote:

How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? :awesome:




A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.

Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:


And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:


And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:

Also see my sig for another example.




Holy Crap Peacefrog!:eek: Look at those amazing fruits! You now have a godlike status to me :awesome: I totally understand the consolidation now - I do the same with my Cube trays, that way I know it is ready to fruit, except I don't case them, but Pans you do because they need that humid "blanket'/micro-climate, right?

Awesome! So from the day you notice that your Pan trays are fully colonized, you roughly add another 3 to 6 days for consolidation? Would you then notice any changes on the surface, eg. knotting, near the end of the consolidation period of the substrate? :shocked:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
    #23497643 - 08/01/16 05:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r35l said:
i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos




I've never found a bag of peat that was a) sourced from the US, and b) had a label that said "treated with trich"

most are sourced from Canada.

Im sure there are many kinds of peat based soil mixes that are treated, but since they are pre mixes, they are marked up price wise, so I don't buy them.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23499038 - 08/01/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for the kind words! 

Yes the casing really aids in the microclimate needed for pans to flourish. And I allow the sub to sit with GE only for the 3-6 days of consolidation. Primordia will sometimes form, but usually do more if FAE is introduced during this time. And the surface generally will thicken up more during this time as well, but not always. Really depends on the substrain, genetics, etc.

The pics above and in my signature is my HI culture I isolated 5 years ago. It is by far the best producing cyan culture I have isolated to date. And it is very consistent.

Good luck on your grow and I look forward to seeing your results.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
    #23500932 - 08/02/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peacefrog said:
Quote:

How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? :awesome:




A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.

Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:


And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:


And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:

Also see my sig for another example.



I think I might have overlay? Not sure tho.
My jiffy mix/verm casing was colonized completely within 4 days after applying and fruiting immediately.
The spawn run was 7 days, but the surface was fully white on day 5, so it did have some time to consolidate.



I'm guessing I used too much verm in my casing, which made it overly nutritious and this is why the mycelium ran through it soo quickly?
I'm also thinking maybe a 1/4" casing was a bit on the thin side and would not be able to support fruit bodies?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #23500955 - 08/02/16 07:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i use very little verm in my casings (like 20% max, its mostly peat) and it still overlaid. 

I think its a conditions thing.  consolidation sounds like a good bet too, but when I did cyans, I never got overlay, only got it with the cambodigenesis


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23501084 - 08/02/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Damn...so what do you recommend i do,
Is there any way to save this grow?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #23501149 - 08/02/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Blindingleaf, that's interesting that you never had an issue with cyans. I have read a lot of pan growers who did not have an issue either. I saw it on a varying degree with every substrain of cyans and cams I grew. So you may be on to something with conditions. I don't know, I just always consolidate every grow with um now.  It sure doesn't hurt a thing to do it IMO.

Also I have read that some folks claim they thought cams were slightly more potent then cyans, but I never saw a difference personally, may just be me though.

Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
Damn...so what do you recommend i do,
Is there any way to save this grow?




I don't think you are screwed here. You will most likely see less than optimal fruiting ability, but if all goes well, you should see some fruit. I would just wait a couple of days and patch very lightly personally. And I always use 50/50+ for all of my casing material and do not get overlay after consolidation.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #23501161 - 08/02/16 09:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: guyute22]
    #23501202 - 08/02/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: d0urd3n]
    #23501234 - 08/02/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yea it sounds like a good idea.  I will try consolidation next time with the cambo's!

I read they were more potent too, but the first time I tried cambo's I felt like the cyans were stronger.  then the next two time I tried them, they seemed equal.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23501531 - 08/02/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Noticed any differences in yield with MS, BL?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
    #23502423 - 08/02/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peacefrog said:
Quote:

How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? :awesome:




A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.

Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:


And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:


And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:

Also see my sig for another example.




thanks for mentioning this, Peacefrog. i've noticed overlay being a common issue in grows on here but i hadn't seen a good explanation for what was causing it but this makes alot of sense.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: guyute22]
    #23507497 - 08/03/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

guyute22 said:
not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing




Wouldn't applying another casing just be sandwiching in a bunch of nasty stuff since its already been exposed to fruiting conditions?


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
    #23508111 - 08/04/16 01:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
Quote:

r35l said:
i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos




I've never found a bag of peat that was a) sourced from the US, and b) had a label that said "treated with trich"

most are sourced from Canada.

Im sure there are many kinds of peat based soil mixes that are treated, but since they are pre mixes, they are marked up price wise, so I don't buy them.




The sphagnum peat moss which I use Superflora's superior quality from the Black Forest of Germany :rockon: with a pH of 5.5 - 6.0, and they don't state it being treated with trich, and goes for about $9 a 2.5 lb bag. I think r35l refers to certain pre-mixes that are treated with trich, meant for plants, because it helps fight fungal infections at the roots. :ganja:

Quote:

Peacefrog said:
Thank you for the kind words! 

Yes the casing really aids in the microclimate needed for pans to flourish. And I allow the sub to sit with GE only for the 3-6 days of consolidation. Primordia will sometimes form, but usually do more if FAE is introduced during this time. And the surface generally will thicken up more during this time as well, but not always. Really depends on the substrain, genetics, etc.

The pics above and in my signature is my HI culture I isolated 5 years ago. It is by far the best producing cyan culture I have isolated to date. And it is very consistent.

Good luck on your grow and I look forward to seeing your results.




Thanks PeaceFrog! You guys with the successful Pan grows under the belt really inspire us "noobs", as I'm sure it seems easy once mastered, and having good, clean isolates :stoned: I'm kinda still figuring out the basics, like which spawn works best for my Pan cams, and so far they really dig the Oats, because none of the trays have contaminated thus far, unlike when I used wheat, and the mycelium's thick, aggressive and fast, and as close to rizomorphic as I've ever seen them, which must be good!

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
i use very little verm in my casings (like 20% max, its mostly peat) and it still overlaid. 

I think its a conditions thing.  consolidation sounds like a good bet too, but when I did cyans, I never got overlay, only got it with the cambodigenesis




I tend to use 50/50 Peat Moss and Vermiculite, but this time I used only about 20% Vermiculite, as the texture and consistency just seemed better when I mixed it up, and resembles close to many successful Pan-grow pics I've seen where the Vermiculite doesn't look as abundant in the casing, and so far it's working for me. I also think conditions affect it, like too much misting or not enough FAE, because the substrate needs to understand that it is not time to colonize anymore, but rather to fruit, and I'm sure mild stress factors will induce the pinning, eg. A casing layer drying out slightly between misting and fanning intervals, and a substrate so colonized that there's no nutrition left, basically forcing it to fruit in order to survive (consolidation). :cookiemonster:

It's also odd that you've noticed only Pan cams overlaying - Hence I'm still planning on ordering a proper Pan cyan var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche very soon, as it would be interesting to see what the Pan cam and Pan cyan would do side-by-side, all variables kept the same except the species differing.


Quote:

Peacefrog said:
Blindingleaf, that's interesting that you never had an issue with cyans. I have read a lot of pan growers who did not have an issue either. I saw it on a varying degree with every substrain of cyans and cams I grew. So you may be on to something with conditions. I don't know, I just always consolidate every grow with um now.  It sure doesn't hurt a thing to do it IMO.

Also I have read that some folks claim they thought cams were slightly more potent then cyans, but I never saw a difference personally, may just be me though.

Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
Damn...so what do you recommend i do,
Is there any way to save this grow?




I don't think you are screwed here. You will most likely see less than optimal fruiting ability, but if all goes well, you should see some fruit. I would just wait a couple of days and patch very lightly personally. And I always use 50/50+ for all of my casing material and do not get overlay after consolidation.




I hope they're more potent, as it would be worth all the effort! :2girls1cup: I'm sure it's just (again) depending on the genetics of your isolate - Perhaps sometimes you'll isolate more potent Pan cam than you have ever isolated a Pan cyan, and vice versa?

I'm thinking of patching the areas of the casing layer where the mycelium comes through heavily, just to balance it out with the rest of the 'field'...

Quote:

PsilocyBen17 said:
Quote:

guyute22 said:
not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing




Wouldn't applying another casing just be sandwiching in a bunch of nasty stuff since its already been exposed to fruiting conditions?





I can imagine this being a possible issue, but patching would be fine if the mycelium comes through strongly?

I've taken some pictures of the casing layers yesterday, and it is looking good thus far, here they are:




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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23508235 - 08/04/16 03:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good luck.    Couldn't get my Sandose to do shit.  You're already having better luck than me.    Can't wait to see how this fruits, as I do have some Sandose MS solution left.  Going to try in agar this time.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: d0urd3n]
    #23508405 - 08/04/16 05:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

when my trays overlaid, I scratched them and recased with unpasteurized peat. I did this knowing full well it had a strong possibility of failing.  but the alternative (not doing anything to an overlaid tray) was already a fail, so I had nothing to lose.

Quote:

d0urd3n said:
Noticed any differences in yield with MS, BL?




I've only done MS grows with pans and never measured yield.  a tray equal to the size dimensions of a 27 qt tote should fill a qt zip lock all the way if it fruits well…but thats all the measuring I've done.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23518952 - 08/07/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Updste:

Below are pictures of two trays at day 8 and the latter two at day 7 (I really hope they're still looking promising):



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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23519399 - 08/07/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good luck man, I'm casing my cambos tomorrow. :dancer:

Will be watching how you get on :takingnotes:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: weetsie]
    #23542924 - 08/15/16 04:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

weetsie said:
Good luck man, I'm casing my cambos tomorrow. :dancer:

Will be watching how you get on :takingnotes:






Hi All,



In the meantime I have been patching the whole surface as overlay was taking place (kinda to be expected?) around day 8, and still nothing has transpired... I've even the scratched the whole casing, on day 12, as I feared it might have been too thick, especially after patching, and also hydrated the substrate with some water, as the tray did seem to feel less weighty...

My suspicion is that the hydrated lime I've added to the substrate, to balance the pH to just above 7, might have affected the non-pin formation, and perhaps what looked like Mycogone perniciosa before casing, might also have influenced this?


On the other hand, I've invested in some  filter patched spawn bags, an impulse sealer, and straw (mainly for Oysters), and have now prepared a Panaeolus substrate of note; One that most TC's here have used to great success, and I'll be sterilizing it this time, just like StoneSun has done with great results, as I'm kinda fed up of trying pasteurization and trays with these delicate Genus & species. I've customized the recipe a tad, but it should work well, especially seeing as I added no hydrated lime this time, and (surprisingly) the pH is around 6.8 - 7.0 :stoned:

The substrate now comprises of:

20  cups/5 L/50% Field-Aged Horse Manure
8  cups/2 L/20% Coco Coir
6  cups/1.5 L/15% Chopped Straw (shorter than 1")
4  cups/1 L/10% Vermiculite
2  cups/500 ml/5% Gypsum

10  cups/2.50 L/25% Water (up to field capacity).


After about 12 hours the substrate's field capacity seems just right (leaning slightly towards the dry side, which I've read are the way Pans like it), and I've filled each 250 mm x 330 mm spawn bag with 3.5 cups/875 ml of prepared substrate, shaped it on a flat surface and measured the substrate height level at about 1.5".
Thereafter I rolled the bag with the filter patch's exterior side pointing inwards, until filter patch's interior side nearly fully faces upwards, and tape it firmly to keep it firmly rolled up. Conveniently, the opening ends of each bag ended up on the side of the rolled-up bag, pointing downwards, thus there should be no way that steam/water during sterilization can get in the bag - This way I won't have to use excessive amounts of aluminum foil to cover bags each time I PC some.

Then I stacked the bags in sterilizer, leaving spaces in between the bags as to allow the steam to cover most of the bags' surfaces effectively - I also won't need to use a bunch of ring lids as spacers in between the bags and the PC's side wall, as they all fit inside so perfectly, as you can see below:




Once sterilized for 2 hours at 15 psi~250 degrees Fahrenheit and cooled down, I'll open the PC in front of my HEPA flow hood (designed and built according to StoneSun's tek - I salute you sir!:rockon:), Open up the bags - that tend to almost vacuum-seal itself when the PC depressurizes - and knock it up with about 1.5 cups of good-looking Pan cam Millet-, Rye- and Oat-spawn, which should bring the substrate height to between 1.5 to 2 inches, and impulse seal twice or thrice (extra sure it's sealed!), shake it up good, shape the substrate again at the base of the bag, and allow to colonize at 72 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit in ambient, indirect fruiting light.


I'll keep you posted!
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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Edited by ravenfeeder (08/15/16 06:48 AM)


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23551865 - 08/18/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocyBen17 said:
Quote:

r35l said:
i...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos



Hahaha this guy
:notamused:



I'm pretty sure I looked like this after reading that


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Leftfield420]
    #23564919 - 08/22/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hi All!


I've tossed out the trays, and in the meantime the new Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Domesticate bags have been colonizing fairly well.
Thus far only 2 out of the 16 bags have contaminated on Day 2, and been tossed out asap (source = same spawn jar), and it is currently Day 6, and the bags that were spawned from millet and oats are actually all fully colonized!:eek: Only the bags spawned from rye seems to be lagging behind, thus I'll only be using oats and millet as my Pan cam spawn henceforth...:thumbup:

Here are pictures of the bags taken this morning, where they colonize in ambient indirect 6500k CFL lighting at mostly a temperature range of 72 - 81 degrees Fahrenheit:





Now I'll wait 3 to 6 days to allow the mycelium to properly consolidate the substrate - and REALLY become amped to fruit - and cut it open down to the height of the substrate's surface, case it with approximately a ¼" thin layer of field capacity modified 50/50+ pasteurized casing material. (This time I'll add a bit more vermiculite than peat moss, and also a bit of perlite, as I've seen highly successful grows with this added by Stonesun and BlindingLeaf:rockon: Up'ing aeration at the substrate level can only be a good thing!).
The pH will be adjusted with hydrated lime to between 7 and 8.



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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23565136 - 08/22/16 06:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

thats a unique way to grow. I like the large sample size.

i use verm at 25%.  I don't use hydrated lime.  just limestone.  I don't check PH, but its probably 7.

I'm definitely interested in seeing if consolidation helps with those god damn overlaying cambos, so I'm rooting for ya dude:mushroom:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23589343 - 08/29/16 08:35 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Hi All!

It's just been over 7 Days, and here's the update on the bags, including - most importantly - the pictures :ganja:

I've allowed all the fully colonized Millet and Oats sterile substrate bags to consolidate for 6 days, and cased it very thinly, in front of my running flow hood (to ensure the cleanest casing application:pirate:) with the pasteurized casing material I'll also mention that the bags spawned with rye never colonized completely, yet became firmer, and so I decided to sacrifice it and practice my casing application skills on it and placed it outside to see how it will fair in an abundance of fresh air:pipesmoke:





You'll notice from the the top shots that some of the cased bags' surface's edges tend to be exposed as the casing drops off and down the side of the substrate and the bag - Will this affect the grow/pinset negatively, and should I simply patch the exposed edges later on? :spank:



Thanks in Advance!
:sporedrop::mushroom2::sporedrop::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
    #23589363 - 08/29/16 08:44 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i would play it by ear.  those edges may even be where ur first pins emerge.

careful with doing the dirty in front of ur hood. not even a half hour ago I broke a jar of rye in front of the running hood and had to stop everything and vacuum  :wtfsonic:

luckily, grains dont "smudge" and are large enough for the vacuum to pick up (not to mention they are sterilized). peat, poo, coir, not as much. i see u got a nice screen though, so bumping by accident shouldn't be an issue.

im interested to see effect of consolidating. I'm going to try fruiting at spawning next. with two ends of the spectrum, maybe we can figure this out


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23638749 - 09/12/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
they basically almost overlaid the second casing too by the time it fruited.





Second casing? Do you normally case pans twice?

If so...

When? Once at spawning to substrate and again at fruiting?

My cubes seem to do very well with early casing but clearly this changes a lot of factors that may not Pan out :wink:


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PutACapInHisAss]
    #23638827 - 09/12/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Clearly I'm not BL but what he meant was that he cases once, it ate the casing, so he patched it/cased it again, and it practically ate all the patches.

Ideally you only want to case once but they are aggressive so it's tricky.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: d0urd3n]
    #23640609 - 09/13/16 04:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:

first casing got overlay, on all 3trays.  that sucks…i knew they wouldn't pin except maybe from the sides.  i had nothing to lose really, so i scratched and cased again…luckily it worked.

here is one tray where u can see it almost ate the whole second casing too, the other 2 didn't eat it to this extent.


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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23641666 - 09/13/16 01:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification dudes!

While this thread is resurrected, how is it harvesting Pans to keep the substrate intact?

Can you pull/twist them? Do you have to cut them out with scissors or something like an Exacto? Other?


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