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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23497534 - 08/01/16 02:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is true, but the print will be of a high standard due to the vendor doing a professional job of making and selling spores, whereas some random grower in the world who sent the print to fsre, might not take such precautions to make a high quality print
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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PsilocyBen17
Pin Pornographer


Registered: 10/20/13
Posts: 3,751
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23497543 - 08/01/16 03:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, wrong. In terms of genetics there is no such thing as a high quality print. Spores will always result in a genetic crapshoot...this is why we isolate desirable strains on agar....
A spore print from a vendor could be cleaner than a spore print from a user, but this isn't important since even vendor spores aren't harvested under sterile conditions. Even syringes from vendors are unreliable and often dirty. For this reason they should always be put on agar first.
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Peacefrog
Stranger



Registered: 12/09/15
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23497587 - 08/01/16 04:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? 
A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.
Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:

And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:
  
And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:
  Also see my sig for another example.
Edited by Peacefrog (08/01/16 04:20 AM)
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
#23497602 - 08/01/16 04:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said: No, wrong. In terms of genetics there is no such thing as a high quality print. Spores will always result in a genetic crapshoot...this is why we isolate desirable strains on agar....
A spore print from a vendor could be cleaner than a spore print from a user, but this isn't important since even vendor spores aren't harvested under sterile conditions. Even syringes from vendors are unreliable and often dirty. For this reason they should always be put on agar first.
Gotcha I shan't argue with that!
Quote:
Peacefrog said:
Quote:
How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? 
A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.
Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:

And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:
  
And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:
  Also see my sig for another example.
Holy Crap Peacefrog! Look at those amazing fruits! You now have a godlike status to me I totally understand the consolidation now - I do the same with my Cube trays, that way I know it is ready to fruit, except I don't case them, but Pans you do because they need that humid "blanket'/micro-climate, right?
Awesome! So from the day you notice that your Pan trays are fully colonized, you roughly add another 3 to 6 days for consolidation? Would you then notice any changes on the surface, eg. knotting, near the end of the consolidation period of the substrate?
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
#23497643 - 08/01/16 05:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
r35l said: i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos
I've never found a bag of peat that was a) sourced from the US, and b) had a label that said "treated with trich"
most are sourced from Canada.
Im sure there are many kinds of peat based soil mixes that are treated, but since they are pre mixes, they are marked up price wise, so I don't buy them.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Peacefrog
Stranger



Registered: 12/09/15
Posts: 97
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23499038 - 08/01/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you for the kind words!
Yes the casing really aids in the microclimate needed for pans to flourish. And I allow the sub to sit with GE only for the 3-6 days of consolidation. Primordia will sometimes form, but usually do more if FAE is introduced during this time. And the surface generally will thicken up more during this time as well, but not always. Really depends on the substrain, genetics, etc.
The pics above and in my signature is my HI culture I isolated 5 years ago. It is by far the best producing cyan culture I have isolated to date. And it is very consistent.
Good luck on your grow and I look forward to seeing your results.
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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
#23500932 - 08/02/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Peacefrog said:
Quote:
How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? 
A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.
Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:

And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:
  
And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:
  Also see my sig for another example.
I think I might have overlay? Not sure tho. My jiffy mix/verm casing was colonized completely within 4 days after applying and fruiting immediately. The spawn run was 7 days, but the surface was fully white on day 5, so it did have some time to consolidate.

I'm guessing I used too much verm in my casing, which made it overly nutritious and this is why the mycelium ran through it soo quickly? I'm also thinking maybe a 1/4" casing was a bit on the thin side and would not be able to support fruit bodies?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
#23500955 - 08/02/16 07:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i use very little verm in my casings (like 20% max, its mostly peat) and it still overlaid.
I think its a conditions thing. consolidation sounds like a good bet too, but when I did cyans, I never got overlay, only got it with the cambodigenesis
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23501084 - 08/02/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Damn...so what do you recommend i do, Is there any way to save this grow?
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Peacefrog
Stranger



Registered: 12/09/15
Posts: 97
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
#23501149 - 08/02/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blindingleaf, that's interesting that you never had an issue with cyans. I have read a lot of pan growers who did not have an issue either. I saw it on a varying degree with every substrain of cyans and cams I grew. So you may be on to something with conditions. I don't know, I just always consolidate every grow with um now. It sure doesn't hurt a thing to do it IMO.
Also I have read that some folks claim they thought cams were slightly more potent then cyans, but I never saw a difference personally, may just be me though.
Quote:
Psilosoulful said: Damn...so what do you recommend i do, Is there any way to save this grow?
I don't think you are screwed here. You will most likely see less than optimal fruiting ability, but if all goes well, you should see some fruit. I would just wait a couple of days and patch very lightly personally. And I always use 50/50+ for all of my casing material and do not get overlay after consolidation.
Edited by Peacefrog (08/02/16 09:05 AM)
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guyute22
Ugly Pig


Registered: 07/27/15
Posts: 504
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Psilosoulful]
#23501161 - 08/02/16 09:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 5,237
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: guyute22]
#23501202 - 08/02/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: d0urd3n]
#23501234 - 08/02/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yea it sounds like a good idea. I will try consolidation next time with the cambo's!
I read they were more potent too, but the first time I tried cambo's I felt like the cyans were stronger. then the next two time I tried them, they seemed equal.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 5,237
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23501531 - 08/02/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Noticed any differences in yield with MS, BL?
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Panarchist
Cyanescendant



Registered: 04/02/16
Posts: 432
Loc: Copeland
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
#23502423 - 08/02/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Peacefrog said:
Quote:
How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid? 
A very simple trick is to allow the fully colonized sub a 3-6 day consolidation period. This seems to help the mycelium get out of its vegetative state and into fruiting mode. When I first started growing pans, I saw the same kind of results as described by blindingleaf. The casing would overlay and produce poorly. And I noticed that the best fruiting would occur in the properly colonized areas not overlaid. Once I started consolidating, this issue was immeditaly fixed and I always do it now.
Here is an example of one of my earlier grows with overlay and poor performance:

And here are examples of how my casing layer looks after consolidating, casing, and putting straight into fruiting procedures:
  
And the subsequent flush that followed a proper casing run:
  Also see my sig for another example.
thanks for mentioning this, Peacefrog. i've noticed overlay being a common issue in grows on here but i hadn't seen a good explanation for what was causing it but this makes alot of sense.
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PsilocyBen17
Pin Pornographer


Registered: 10/20/13
Posts: 3,751
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: guyute22]
#23507497 - 08/03/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
guyute22 said: not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing
Wouldn't applying another casing just be sandwiching in a bunch of nasty stuff since its already been exposed to fruiting conditions?
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: Peacefrog]
#23508111 - 08/04/16 01:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said:
Quote:
r35l said: i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos
I've never found a bag of peat that was a) sourced from the US, and b) had a label that said "treated with trich"
most are sourced from Canada.
Im sure there are many kinds of peat based soil mixes that are treated, but since they are pre mixes, they are marked up price wise, so I don't buy them.
The sphagnum peat moss which I use Superflora's superior quality from the Black Forest of Germany with a pH of 5.5 - 6.0, and they don't state it being treated with trich, and goes for about $9 a 2.5 lb bag. I think r35l refers to certain pre-mixes that are treated with trich, meant for plants, because it helps fight fungal infections at the roots. 
Quote:
Peacefrog said: Thank you for the kind words!
Yes the casing really aids in the microclimate needed for pans to flourish. And I allow the sub to sit with GE only for the 3-6 days of consolidation. Primordia will sometimes form, but usually do more if FAE is introduced during this time. And the surface generally will thicken up more during this time as well, but not always. Really depends on the substrain, genetics, etc.
The pics above and in my signature is my HI culture I isolated 5 years ago. It is by far the best producing cyan culture I have isolated to date. And it is very consistent.
Good luck on your grow and I look forward to seeing your results.
Thanks PeaceFrog! You guys with the successful Pan grows under the belt really inspire us "noobs", as I'm sure it seems easy once mastered, and having good, clean isolates I'm kinda still figuring out the basics, like which spawn works best for my Pan cams, and so far they really dig the Oats, because none of the trays have contaminated thus far, unlike when I used wheat, and the mycelium's thick, aggressive and fast, and as close to rizomorphic as I've ever seen them, which must be good!
Quote:
blindingleaf said: i use very little verm in my casings (like 20% max, its mostly peat) and it still overlaid.
I think its a conditions thing. consolidation sounds like a good bet too, but when I did cyans, I never got overlay, only got it with the cambodigenesis
I tend to use 50/50 Peat Moss and Vermiculite, but this time I used only about 20% Vermiculite, as the texture and consistency just seemed better when I mixed it up, and resembles close to many successful Pan-grow pics I've seen where the Vermiculite doesn't look as abundant in the casing, and so far it's working for me. I also think conditions affect it, like too much misting or not enough FAE, because the substrate needs to understand that it is not time to colonize anymore, but rather to fruit, and I'm sure mild stress factors will induce the pinning, eg. A casing layer drying out slightly between misting and fanning intervals, and a substrate so colonized that there's no nutrition left, basically forcing it to fruit in order to survive (consolidation). 
It's also odd that you've noticed only Pan cams overlaying - Hence I'm still planning on ordering a proper Pan cyan var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche very soon, as it would be interesting to see what the Pan cam and Pan cyan would do side-by-side, all variables kept the same except the species differing.
Quote:
Peacefrog said: Blindingleaf, that's interesting that you never had an issue with cyans. I have read a lot of pan growers who did not have an issue either. I saw it on a varying degree with every substrain of cyans and cams I grew. So you may be on to something with conditions. I don't know, I just always consolidate every grow with um now. It sure doesn't hurt a thing to do it IMO.
Also I have read that some folks claim they thought cams were slightly more potent then cyans, but I never saw a difference personally, may just be me though.
Quote:
Psilosoulful said: Damn...so what do you recommend i do, Is there any way to save this grow?
I don't think you are screwed here. You will most likely see less than optimal fruiting ability, but if all goes well, you should see some fruit. I would just wait a couple of days and patch very lightly personally. And I always use 50/50+ for all of my casing material and do not get overlay after consolidation.
I hope they're more potent, as it would be worth all the effort! I'm sure it's just (again) depending on the genetics of your isolate - Perhaps sometimes you'll isolate more potent Pan cam than you have ever isolated a Pan cyan, and vice versa?
I'm thinking of patching the areas of the casing layer where the mycelium comes through heavily, just to balance it out with the rest of the 'field'...
Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said:
Quote:
guyute22 said: not speaking from experience, but I have read you can try another layer of casing
Wouldn't applying another casing just be sandwiching in a bunch of nasty stuff since its already been exposed to fruiting conditions?
I can imagine this being a possible issue, but patching would be fine if the mycelium comes through strongly?
I've taken some pictures of the casing layers yesterday, and it is looking good thus far, here they are:
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23508235 - 08/04/16 03:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Good luck. Couldn't get my Sandose to do shit. You're already having better luck than me. Can't wait to see how this fruits, as I do have some Sandose MS solution left. Going to try in agar this time.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: d0urd3n]
#23508405 - 08/04/16 05:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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when my trays overlaid, I scratched them and recased with unpasteurized peat. I did this knowing full well it had a strong possibility of failing. but the alternative (not doing anything to an overlaid tray) was already a fail, so I had nothing to lose.
Quote:
d0urd3n said: Noticed any differences in yield with MS, BL?
I've only done MS grows with pans and never measured yield. a tray equal to the size dimensions of a 27 qt tote should fill a qt zip lock all the way if it fruits well…but thats all the measuring I've done.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23518952 - 08/07/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Updste:
Below are pictures of two trays at day 8 and the latter two at day 7 (I really hope they're still looking promising):
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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