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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased
#23494725 - 07/31/16 06:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey everyone,
I've recently tried at some Pan cam Sandose trays, which continuously contaminated near full colonization, always/mostly on the side where the substrate and tray wall meets, and I can see this due to using transparent trays. I'm pretty sure it's not due to not using a liner, as I'm sure the substrate will still shrink away from the liner as time passes? I've been using wheat berries as a spawn, and they didn't seem too happy, and being so nutritious, I reckon that could be the reason it kept contaminating before nearly being fully colonized.
Now I've tried oats, and it looked like it enjoyed it thoroughly more, colonizing it thicker and more aggressively/vigorously, and after pasteurizing Horse manure/Vermiculite/Gypsum/Hydrated Lime (75%/25%/5%/1%) at field capacity for 90 minutes between 140 and 170°F, I've made up trays (wiped out with 70% Isopropyl alcohol) roughly between 1½ and 2" thick, with a spawn ratio of 1:2. I also tried to avoid sprinkling the spawn near the edges as I layered it with manure in the trays in front of my flow hood, hoping this will help fight contamination near the edges, but here and there a grain still ends up near the edge, but one can't be to fussy now I guess... 
    
Below are pictures of 2 out of the 6 trays I've made up, 8 days later, seeming fully colonized (no contamination yet! ) and ready for a casing layer which I've made up with Peat moss/Vermiculite/Gypsum/Hydrated Lime (60%/40%/5%/2%) at field capacity with a pH of 8, pasteurized also between 140 and 170°F for 90 minutes, and then applied to the surface of the Pan cam substrate at a thickness of ⅛ to ⅓" in thickness (varies greatly due to the surface covered irregularly by 'clouds' of mycelium), misted until glistening, and placed into (functional) sgfc's at a temperature range of 71 to 81°F.
 
I try to FAE three to four times a day, but I also have a duct with holes running past my two sgfc's, and it blows in fresh air from outside for 5 minutes every 6th hour, so I hope this can only be beneficial...
Also, I've taken some close-ups of the surface, because here and there I see some droplets form on the mycelium, and I hope it isn't Verticillium? Another reason for the 'weaker' genetics might be due to the Pan cam print coming from fsre.nl, therefore perhaps whomever sent them the print took a 'dirty' print? 
  
Edited by ravenfeeder (07/31/16 08:02 AM)
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23494820 - 07/31/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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u won't know you have vert till its too late for the most part.
dont rely on ur hood for open air spawning. good spawn and proper pasteurization is all you need. plus u don't want to bump into it by accident.
I don't use liners in trays really, and thats what I've done pans the most in.
wheat isn't "too nutritious" for spawn. so its not that either.
"weaker genetics" from shady spores isn't really thing either (maybe in random, isolated cases with crazy inbred cubes or something). mislabeling, yea, contaminated, yea, but not "weak spores". maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.
ur pictures didn't show up.
I would lower ur peat pasteurization to 30 minutes, and try hard not to go above 140f. this won't help with pinning, but IME, will help with avoiding casing surface molds.
90-120 minutes btw140-170 for poo is good tho.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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weetsie
unlicensed tub surgeon



Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 572
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23494834 - 07/31/16 07:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why the short pasteurization time for peat?
-------------------- Active grow logs: Oysters on Straw Pellets Trade list
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: weetsie] 1
#23494876 - 07/31/16 08:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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preserving the microbial population as much as possible to hold the fort while the grow runs out.
poo has a different population of microbes (and bugs/eggs that need to be destroyed by heat), because its much more nutritious than peat and able to support competition better. since its being spawned (most likely with a very high ratio of spawn making the time its exposed to the elements shorter) and colonized, the mycelium will "hold the fort" for the duration of the grow, so it won't need an army of microbes to help it combat any potential competition.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 238
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Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23494888 - 07/31/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
weetsie said: Why the short pasteurization time for peat? 
...Because Pasteurization duration is usually 60 to 90 minutes once you reach 140°F, and longer is simply counter-productive?
Quote:
blindingleaf said: u won't know you have vert till its too late for the most part.
dont rely on ur hood for open air spawning. good spawn and proper pasteurization is all you need. plus u don't want to bump into it by accident.
I don't use liners in trays really, and thats what I've done pans the most in.
wheat isn't "too nutritious" for spawn. so its not that either.
"weaker genetics" from shady spores isn't really thing either (maybe in random, isolated cases with crazy inbred cubes or something). mislabeling, yea, contaminated, yea, but not "weak spores". maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.
ur pictures didn't show up.
I would lower ur peat pasteurization to 30 minutes, and try hard not to go above 140f. this won't help with pinning, but IME, will help with avoiding casing surface molds.
90-120 minutes btw140-170 for poo is good tho.
Thanks for all the handy info blinding! I've just uploaded and attached the pictures (uploading from the mobile can be such a drag! ). I feared my pasteurization might be too high, as manure is such a delicate substrate (yet the best), and the wheat I think is just too plump, and bursts easily in the process, and I think that might also easily open up a window for contaminants. The last two lines are a bit unclear to me as they seem to contradict each other which one is it?
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23494900 - 07/31/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I do poo for 2hours btw 140-170.
i do peat for 30 minutes at 140 (realistically tho, 90% of the time it will go to 150 just by accident)
ur grains don't look burst to me, but yea too many burst can be an instigator
I had those spots too with cambo.

if u already cased it, and its that white, it is completely overlaid. u can try re-casing, or it may still pin from the edges.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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weetsie
unlicensed tub surgeon



Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 572
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23494924 - 07/31/16 08:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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it looks like mushrooms growing on a cloud
Thanks for the info on peat, I'm casing my pan cambos in a couple of days and would of probably done something like 150f for 90mins.
-------------------- Active grow logs: Oysters on Straw Pellets Trade list
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: weetsie]
#23494952 - 07/31/16 08:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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good luck man. they are very aggressive. I got overlay every time I grew them…they basically almost overlaid the second casing too by the time it fruited.
definitely an epic trip tho. i tried 2g for the first time last week. spectacular closed eye….like a waking dream. seems like the kinda place where what you're looking for finds YOU
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23494974 - 07/31/16 09:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Useful thread guys, thank you.
BL, you mentioned senescence being a possible problem, do some species weaken quicken than others?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23495010 - 07/31/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i didn't mention the S word in here.
but yea, I do think there can be differences in how long it takes for strains to senesce. would be interesting to do a test. I dunno if its true or not, but seems that way just from growing. some clones just don't do well after a certain amount of time. could be random thing that happened in storage tho (freezing, unknown contam, etc).
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23495033 - 07/31/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23495036 - 07/31/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said: maybe if u transferred too many times on agar, u will have thinned out the genetics to a point where all you have left is "weak" substrains, but thats all I can really think of if u wanted to bring genetics into the picture as part of the problem.
Ah. So your talking about a poor isolate, basically? But thats likely not going to be a problem if you always select agar showing good signs of growth?
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23495154 - 07/31/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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you cant see fruiting potential on agar, all you can see is speed of growth.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23495165 - 07/31/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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be it a clone you just took, or an MS isolate u just transferred, you would still have to test it out. good growth on agar would be clean growth.
you can't predict fruiting performance from growth pattern on agar.
if the plate fills out and pins, then that can be a good indication of its potential to fruit, but I still wouldn't say for certain until I ran it out normally.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23497211 - 07/31/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said: preserving the microbial population as much as possible to hold the fort while the grow runs out.
poo has a different population of microbes (and bugs/eggs that need to be destroyed by heat), because its much more nutritious than peat and able to support competition better. since its being spawned (most likely with a very high ratio of spawn making the time its exposed to the elements shorter) and colonized, the mycelium will "hold the fort" for the duration of the grow, so it won't need an army of microbes to help it combat any potential competition.
This is interesting, thanks! I'll try pasteurizing my manure for longer and the casing shorter  Quote:
blindingleaf said: I do poo for 2hours btw 140-170.
i do peat for 30 minutes at 140 (realistically tho, 90% of the time it will go to 150 just by accident)
ur grains don't look burst to me, but yea too many burst can be an instigator
I had those spots too with cambo.

if u already cased it, and its that white, it is completely overlaid. u can try re-casing, or it may still pin from the edges.
The pic of the grains is the oats spawn, on which the Pan cam mycelium seems way happier, below is a picture of the same mycelium on wheat berries, not so hapy:

Wow those Pan cams looks happy! Nice shot! It does look pretty similar to my substrate's surface, except I only applied the casing layer yesterday, and placed it directly into fruiting conditions, so I don't have any overlay (yet) as it still needs to colonize through it (the pics of my colonized trays are still un-cased). How would you anyways go about preventing the casing from becoming overlaid?
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23497233 - 07/31/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: you cant see fruiting potential on agar, all you can see is speed of growth.
Always the biggest bummer to me, as I wish they were 100% correlated 
Quote:
blindingleaf said: i didn't mention the S word in here.
but yea, I do think there can be differences in how long it takes for strains to senesce. would be interesting to do a test. I dunno if its true or not, but seems that way just from growing. some clones just don't do well after a certain amount of time. could be random thing that happened in storage tho (freezing, unknown contam, etc).
The "S"-word! Has it become a mycological term no-one wants to hear about ever as it almost seems similar to a omen? I try all my isolates which grows aggressively, as I know any Pan-species are supposed relatively fast, and slow/dodgy-looking ones I toss.
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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r35l
innoculatory engineer

Registered: 07/18/16
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: blindingleaf]
#23497320 - 07/31/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i never heard pasteurization goin less than 60 min. most peat in usa is treated with trich. says so on the bag. if you founs some that is not let me know..and pasteurization doest start till 140f btw...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
#23497361 - 08/01/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
r35l said: i...5th grade science guys..5th grade. that person giving you bunk infos
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: r35l]
#23497377 - 08/01/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've just cased another 3 fully colonized trays, also containing the oats-spawn, and here are some more pictures of the surface just before I cased it, and close-ups of what I thought was Verticillium, but I was mistaken and meant Mycogone perniciosa?  Hopefully some will fruit even if it is infected, because all I want at this stage is to make a couple of new spore prints from which I can hopefully isolate new, vigorous and clean cultures.
Ps. I'm considering ordering a Panaeolus cyanescens var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche Hawke's revamped site, mushrooms.com, as I'm sure he'll have good, clean prints with desirable genetic properties, and it seems he has a great reputation around here, and he was so helpful via e-mail when I sent him a question regarding shipping prints safely and low-key to where I am 

 
  
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Panaeolus cambodginiensis var. Sandose Trays ready to be cased [Re: ravenfeeder]
#23497512 - 08/01/16 02:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ravenfeeder said:
Ps. I'm considering ordering a Panaeolus cyanescens var. Jamaica spore print from Ryche Hawke's revamped site, mushrooms.com, as I'm sure he'll have good, clean prints with desirable genetic properties, and it seems he has a great reputation around here, and he was so helpful via e-mail when I sent him a question regarding shipping prints safely and low-key to where I am 
Prints dont have desirable genetic properties....we need to isolate to get the desirable part....
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