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frog48
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Registered: 03/08/13
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Crude oil in shiitake blocks
#23485058 - 07/28/16 09:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi shroomery
It's been a while, been producing shiitake in a pretty steady flow of 30 k's weekly for almost a year now. Selling them is no problem, producing them is harder. Even tough sometimes. Yields have been pretty stable around 20 % or more for over a year. Last three months I'm having contamination issues of a kind that I haven't seen before. After a months or so blocks are starting to sweat a lot in incubation after two months metabolic are turning black and when I want to birth blocks and I open bags I see sometimes tiny flies During fruiting they start to smell weird and some of them start leaking crude oil, a phenomena that I have seen mentioned on this board before but nobody seemed to have an explanation. Blocks are still producing mush but not as abundant as before. Some of them develop large circles of trich, others just smell awful, a rotten smell of decomposing I don't know what.
I suspect it's a trich problem that already started in my grain masters that got infected in my hood. May be HEpa doesn't function properly? I've had contamination problems before and I changed filter last year. Anybody any ideas?

Large trich circle on a production block

Crude oil leaking from the top of block

Not sure if this is related but sometimes I see this too 

growroom in happy days
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pablokabute
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23485090 - 07/28/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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subscribing to your post.
cant help with any of your problems.
but... great growout!
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!! --- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1 'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”' "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST." --Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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Gr0wer
always improving



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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: pablokabute]
#23485158 - 07/28/16 09:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Have you tested your hood with a clean plate? Let it sit out for a few min with it running. When is the last time your spawn was on agar? Have you tried spawning a few grains onto a plate and check it? Are you producing your own spawn or buying it? Bugs inside the bag? U sure the bags are sealing right? Do u pressure test each bag by pushing down on it after sealing?
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Gr0wer]
#23485232 - 07/28/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've been doing agar plate test. Four out of ten went bad.Too much I guess.Left them open in hood for at least 60 min. I'll try a larger batch this week. Spawn is home made and fresh. I go back to agar every month. Thought about seal as well, but not very logic that it suddenly doesn't seal properly anymore. Why grain on agar? To see if it turns green?
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23485335 - 07/28/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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The reason that I suspect it's a hood related problem, is that my flowhood is operated in a pretty dirty environment. It's a separated room with a door that is pretty much airtight and sealed, but the lab is not far from the growing room where sporeload is very very high sometimes. I spend 400 euro's on a filter last year and sure hope that I don't have to invest that again. Grower your hood is turning in a pretty dirty environment as well, garage with a heavy spore load no? Not having any issues with your hood? I'm afraid my pre filter is not very well designed and lets through large amounts of dust and molds. But may be I'm just too paranoia about a hood operating in a pretty dirty room. I've seen reports on this board where people were claiming that their hood operated in very dirty set ups for five years or more without any contamination issues. Think I even saw Drake mentioning that he uses his hood without a pre filter? Somebody can provide some experience about hoods operating in dirty set up?
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23485699 - 07/28/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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If your filter is 99.99 and the room is pretty well sealed off you should be fine. I suspect your filter may be bad at that high rate of contamination.
Are you getting mold on your plates? Same kind as on the blocks? How about incubation? Is it warmer this time of year? Flies in the bags seems real bad and maybe not sealed. Is your grow room amy warmer?
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Gr0wer
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: drake89]
#23485861 - 07/28/16 01:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yea even with a dirty environment the filter front should blow off relatively well. Last time i did a plate test i left two out for 20 mins and saw zero contams. Sounds like your filter is bad. And yes putting some spawn onto agar will let you see hidden bacteria or yeast.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Gr0wer]
#23486129 - 07/28/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks guys, appreciate it! I'll keep you posted. @drake, incubation room is hot but last year it was similair and I didn't have any issues. The flies are indeed really weird, first time I saw that. Bad seal, I guess. May be the masking tape on my sealer? Any one tried that as well? Having issues?
I'll put the grain on agar this week Grower, see what grows out of it, thanks.
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Shirak
Uhhhh

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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks *DELETED* [Re: frog48]
#23487068 - 07/28/16 07:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Shirak<p>Reason for deletion: just because..
Edited by Shirak (07/29/16 01:09 PM)
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Shirak]
#23487494 - 07/28/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shirak said: Could be other issues with your plate test contamination issue than an actual bad filter. Maybe a bad seal around the filter or air flow that is not laminar. Or perhaps your technique when handling items when you move them and open and close them within the hood. Or not getting complete surface sterilization of your work surface/face of the filter before working in the hood. Or not getting proper sterilization of your tools, hands or jars/plates/bags before opening them up. Or insufficient airflow which is allowing room air to disrupt the sterile laminar air flow and contaminate items within the hood. Lots of possible causes for contamination even with a perfectly good filter.
i think we're assuming that since he's been successful in the past, his technique haven't changed.
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Shirak
Uhhhh

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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks *DELETED* [Re: drake89]
#23487686 - 07/28/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ShirakReason for deletion: why not?
Edited by Shirak (07/28/16 10:40 PM)
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Gr0wer
always improving



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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Shirak]
#23487874 - 07/28/16 11:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Steeile flow, laminar or not is still sterile.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Shirak]
#23487922 - 07/29/16 12:15 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with Shirak that it is kind of strange that the filter is clogged after a year. The set up is not clean but I don't think I got clouds of spores coming in. Sterile technique didn't change. May be a seal in the hood? I opened the pre filter space and there was lots of fine dust in the space where my blower is installed. That's not normal either I guess. The pre filter should catch dust like that. I bought the hood second hand from a hospital. The original pre filter wasn't installed so I fabricated something myself of iron wire with filter cloth stapled on it. A wooden frame to keep everything in place. May be a air enters between the wooden frame and the edges of the filter cloth

This is what I found behind the filter when I changed it last year. Wiped it out with alcohol, tissue was black!

DIY pre filter. I'm afraid the air passes between the wooden frame and the edges of the filter cloth.

This what pre filter looks like after two months
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23488454 - 07/29/16 07:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok, for me the verdict is clear. I took the HEPA out of the hood this morning and found lots of black dust in the plenum. The filter itself had black traces of dust everywhere. Prefilter doesn't work at all or the hood has got a huge leak somewhere. I presume its the filter though. Gonna cost me another 400 euro's to get clean production started again. 

Black dust in the plenum

traces of dust on filter
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23488460 - 07/29/16 07:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi Shirak, our posts just crossed each other. The photo with the tissue and black dust is this morning. Much dirtier than the other photo wich dates from a year ago. The back of the filter is still white as if it is new but you can clearly see the traces of dust as you can see on the pic as well. Thanks for input!
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23488470 - 07/29/16 07:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh by the way, the black traces on the tiles are nothing. Just mixed up white and gray cement to do the joints, looks like mold but is very clean
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23488569 - 07/29/16 08:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Are there any tiny holes or cracks in the filter pleats? Usually happens during shipping. I'm not totally convinced you have a bad filter, it's hard to say.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: drake89]
#23488643 - 07/29/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Don't see anything, but it worked fine for over a year. The guy who sells me the filters says it's dead. According to him it's due to very fine dust we got here in the mountains. He advises another prefilter, a F9 cassette filter, that costs 77,10 + 26 euro for the frame you click it in. The frame you only buy once. He says that's the only way to keep the HEPA clean in this set up.
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Shirak
Uhhhh

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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks *DELETED* [Re: drake89]
#23488660 - 07/29/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ShirakReason for deletion: feel like it
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Shirak]
#23488711 - 07/29/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shirak said:
What do you do to sterilize the face of the filter and work surfaces? How long do you let it run before working?
you really should leave them to run constantly IMO. at least that's what the pros do.
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Shirak
Uhhhh

Registered: 05/24/16
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks *DELETED* [Re: drake89]
#23488821 - 07/29/16 10:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ShirakReason for deletion: feel like it
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Shirak]
#23489120 - 07/29/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shirak said:
Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
Shirak said:
What do you do to sterilize the face of the filter and work surfaces? How long do you let it run before working?
you really should leave them to run constantly IMO. at least that's what the pros do.
True but unless you are using it every day the odds are not likely. I don't leave mine running 24/7. So I spray down all surfaces including the entire filter face with alcohol from a pump sprayer and let it run for 30 minutes prior to use. I also bang a few times on the work surface after turning on the blower to help dislodge any dust that might have gotten into the work area while it was off. When I was doing orchid tissue culture my contamination rates were 3-4% so it doesn't need to run around the clock.
alcohol does absolutely nothing to clean in front of a flow hood. it needs a few minutes to work and it evaporates in probably less than a minute if the flow hood is blowing air.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: drake89]
#23490666 - 07/29/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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What do you mean by letting them run constantly?
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Gr0wer
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23490994 - 07/30/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Letting your flowhood run 24/7 so the workspace and filter front are always sterile. I was thinking after drake mentioned it, i might use one of my small 26 cfm blowers to run 24/7 off my big flowhood filter to keep my future lab clean. One issue with running the big motor is your compressing air which makes heat.
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Gr0wer
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Gr0wer]
#23491014 - 07/30/16 12:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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And drake, your 100% correct rubbing alcohol will do nothing. The man reason is that rubbing alchol is just that, you need to rub it to break the organic cell walls. There are spores that can withstand an alchol soak but not a rub. And theres no way to rub down your filter face.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Gr0wer]
#23491025 - 07/30/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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If I do that in current set up I'll have to change my HEPA every week. How often do you guys change pre filters. And Drake are you indeed running the hood without the prefilter. Must be fucking clean at your farm.
Edited by frog48 (07/30/16 12:39 AM)
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23491909 - 07/30/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
frog48 said: If I do that in current set up I'll have to change my HEPA every week. How often do you guys change pre filters. And Drake are you indeed running the hood without the prefilter. Must be fucking clean at your farm. 
No way man I sometimes think there's small holes in it haha! I got grain and sawdust all over the floor a lot of the time. But yes I do run with no prefilter. It's a 12" thick one so probably more surface area than the 3 or 4" ones. I use lysol as my main sanitizer but I still use alcohol on my hands since it dries.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: drake89]
#23492256 - 07/30/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So how long 's filter life?
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23493961 - 07/30/16 10:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
frog48 said: So how long 's filter life?
as long as it lasts seems like a good answer. i buy new-old-stock filters all the time, like 10 years old from nuclear reactors that never got finished. not for flowhood but other filtering uses around the farm.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: drake89]
#23495859 - 07/31/16 02:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mine lasted a year, not much compared to the 5 to 10 years they're given by lots of board members. Guess I should move the farm to the city, easier to sell mush as well. Where do you get the second hand filters. In France? We got more nuclear power here than in US
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drake89
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23496417 - 07/31/16 05:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
frog48 said: Mine lasted a year, not much compared to the 5 to 10 years they're given by lots of board members. Guess I should move the farm to the city, easier to sell mush as well. Where do you get the second hand filters. In France? We got more nuclear power here than in US 
ebay my friend. I drive 160km (one way) twice a week to sell mushrooms. they can keep the city traffic and taxes
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Chk
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23498035 - 08/01/16 10:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Frankly you should save a bit of money and buy a brand new one :
http://www.filtration-air-industrielle.fr/HEPA-Filters-H13-H14:::9.html?XTCsid=u0mh48i1fc1r66s8qrcldv9g85
We've got filter manufacturer down here too !
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frog48
Peasant



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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Chk]
#23498169 - 08/01/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know, but more expensive then where I got them in Belgium. It's the insurance that makes it expensive. Tu es ou en France, you're a prof grower? Or just somebody who sells filters LOL
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Chk
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23498209 - 08/01/16 12:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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No no, i don't sell filters lol just a passionate grower (and it would be more polite not to speak in french on a English/American speaking board btw, but ofc you're free to pm me in french if you want/need it)
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frog48
Peasant



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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Chk]
#23501023 - 08/02/16 08:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I Checked, the filter I need is 588 euro and I got it for 230 euro. You can get for 294 euro if you buy more than 50 filters at once. Merci quand meme!
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Chk
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23504455 - 08/03/16 04:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Damn at that price that is a very big filter ??
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frog48
Peasant



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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: Chk]
#23505897 - 08/03/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes it's a big one, may I ask what that thing is on your photo, seems like the gills of a stropharia?
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23527313 - 08/10/16 06:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Somebody ever tried to clean an bad heap filter with air pressure. I guess you'll just blow hole in the the filter pleats. I ordered a new one, takes three weeks to get here. In the meantime I might as well try 'n clean the old one? huh?
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: frog48]
#23527753 - 08/10/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wishing you luck frog, hope you can figure things out.
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frog48
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Re: Crude oil in shiitake blocks [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23565028 - 08/22/16 04:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, to keep you posted, I took out my HEPA and cleaned it with high pressure air on the intake side. Lots of dust coming out. Probably blew holes in it but you never know, might work. I'll fill some dishes this afternoon and we'll see what happens. I'm still waiting for the new filter I ordered.
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