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thesupersoap33
curious george



Registered: 06/28/16
Posts: 338
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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"I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy?
#23482133 - 07/27/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I try to read spiritual stuff. I'm looking for answers... my life needs looking at desperately and I'm very afraid to do it, always have been.
"I come as a brother" was given to me. I don't easily buy into anything, esp. anything that says that I don't need to get involved in my emotions. I've suffered, and continue to suffer from dissociation and depersonalization/derealization. It pushes me to the edge almost everyday of my life now and is very difficult to cope with. When I read this book, some things make sense, but I become so enraged when I read "observe your anger, do not become your anger." I'm just like well, what the fuck does that look like or even mean? It sounds dissociative to me, honestly. I'm not going to sit here and feel unenlightened just because when I get pissed at work, I count down the hours until I can go home and scream and cry as loud as I can. Sometimes I dissociate the feelings for so long that they become lost inside me and that turns me into a victim, or so I believe. Not reacting, in my experience, means being a victim or a pushover. It doesn't mean you're enlightened or "tough." UGGGGHHHRR, it just makes me crazy. I know I'm sad and angry and don't always have access to it, and that I believe, keeps me stuck in relationships that are going nowhere, friendships that should be out-grown by now, and jobs that should have been left years ago. I'm making my own problems by repressing my feelings!!!
anyway, these are just some of my thoughts.
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Morel Guy
Stranger


Registered: 01/23/13
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23482143 - 07/27/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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The problems are when emotion is full on and you can't set it aside. Setting problems aside so the analytical brain can solve problems is ideal. I don't think it's dissociation. That's like saying the bunny is pink cause I'm hungry. Might be funny stoned but it doesn't solve the hunger.
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thesupersoap33
curious george



Registered: 06/28/16
Posts: 338
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: Morel Guy]
#23482172 - 07/27/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't even get that. someone is kicking your face in, it makes you angry. you don't set the anger aside. wouldn't you need it to fight back? I set my feelings aside constantly, but only to not deal with them. Sorry, I just find this confusing.
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Morel Guy
Stranger


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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33] 1
#23482286 - 07/27/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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The best hand to hand combat people don't let their feelings guide their judgment. Any combat really. Got think smart. Rage doesn't make anyone smarter. Those people think they have won when the rage goes away and someone is bleeding. The war continues.
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yeah



Registered: 02/08/09
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23482401 - 07/27/16 01:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yield
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23482679 - 07/27/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Being able to observe your emotions doesn't meant that you don't feel them anymore, it just means that you are conscious of them and therefore they are no longer able to control you. It's not about denying, or ignoring, or anything like that. When you observe your emotions on a regular basis, you can start to realise that these emotions aren't actually you. If you can observe something, it must be separate from yourself, right? The problem is that we believe that our thoughts and emotions belong to us, and therefore our thoughts and emotions end up running our lives, dictating our actions in response to how we feel or thoughts which pop up into our heads. If we can "detach" from thoughts and emotions, we regain our freedom, but the thoughts and feelings don't really go anywhere, at least to begin with. We just view them from a different perspective and therefore they have less influence over us.
Repression = Pushing thoughts/feelings away. This is problematic because they just come back stronger at a later date. Observation = Watching thoughts/feelings, accepting them, and allowing them to be what they are, without getting involved in them.
For example, your driving and some guy pulls out in front of you forcing you to break real hard and nearly causes an accident. You feel angry and think "What an idiot."
- Repression would be denying the feeling of anger, pretending that you don't feel angry right now, and maybe trying to cover it with a different type of (nicer) feeling. You bottle up your emotions, and then another similar incident happens later on, and you are ready to explode!
- Attachment/getting involved would be getting sucked into the angry feeling. Now you are boiling with rage. "That guy could have killed me! People like him shouldn't be allowed on the roads!" Maybe you are so pissed that you start tailgating him, flashing him with your lights. Maybe you even pull up and get out of your car and threaten him. Maybe not. Either way, you are really angry now and you just can't stop thinking about it for the next few hours. You're visiting some friends, and to be honest, your not having a good time because all you can think about is that idiot! (A bit extreme for this type of incident, but you get how this could apply to lots of situations). Now the thought is controlling you, your feelings, your future thoughts, and your actions, and it's not very pleasant.
- Observation would be watching the initial feeling of anger as it comes up and realising that Its just a temporary feeling which will go away soon. It isn't you. It's just a feeling. You accept it, allow it to be what it is, and then because you don't get involved and add more fuel to the fire, the feeling dissipates quite quickly add you are back to feeling calm. You go to your friends and have a nice afternoon.
It's interesting to consider how this can be applied to every thought and emotion, and the effect that could have on a person's life if one were able to observe their thoughts and feeling as they come up. Our entanglement in our thoughts is the root of all suffering, not the thoughts or situations themselves.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: PocketLady]
#23484346 - 07/28/16 01:38 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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In response only to: "is detachment unhealthy". If it is forced, yes. There are a few levels of detachment, and you should find out where you're at. 1) Being detached from whatever you claim, but still being attached to the 'person' you think you are who is able to detach and attach. (can be healthy and also not healthy depending on the situation) 2) Detachment from the person who thinks they need or don't need detachment.(always healthy, you don't exist as a person, the idea of the person arises in you, but it's just conditioning and memory, there is no person.)
The effort is the bondage. Stop for a moment and see what you're not.  Slow down, be still.
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thesupersoap33
curious george



Registered: 06/28/16
Posts: 338
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: Tmethyl]
#23485228 - 07/28/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is no person??!?! Apparently, I am not at a very enlightened state yet. I detach from my feelings and thoughts, but it's more like someone described above when they mentioned repression. I fight my own thoughts and feelings and constantly brush them aside until I can't ignore the fact that my life is boiling down to a very hard hard time, day in and day out and then I just sort of lose it. I cry, I scream, I try not to remember, I try not to think or feel anything. Sounds crazy. That's my level of "detachment".
I did dose and meditate last night. Can't remember too well, but it was mostly about my fear. I was seeing my fear and how it impairs my ability to move and make decisions. I also saw how debilitating and hurtful it is to feel frozen in time.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23486697 - 07/28/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
thesupersoap33 said: I fight my own thoughts and feelings and constantly brush them aside until I can't ignore the fact that my life is boiling down to a very hard hard time, day in and day out and then I just sort of lose it. I cry, I scream, I try not to remember, I try not to think or feel anything. Sounds crazy. That's my level of "detachment".
You have no detachment then. To be detached is to be at peace. Watch the person, see how it's driving itself crazy? Now, notice how you can watch the person. If you can watch the person, than who is the person being watched by?  You of course, consciousness. You were never a person, you just pretended to play along. You can go home now, if this personhood no longer serves you. How to go home? Make no effort, only persons need to make effort. Be still, tat tvam asi.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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FlantasyFlan
A Baby



Registered: 07/30/16
Posts: 4
Loc: ...
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23494167 - 07/30/16 11:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I so see the difficulty in merely observing the anger. Perhaps this term detachment is too vaguely used? I find for myself the best way with intense emotion at least isn't to passively sit there and (as beads of sweat and hypertension manifest) chant "Ommm....this isn't me" .... that's almost stupid if you are so far from neutrality to begin with, as for most people, it doesn't work, except to make you feel more "spiritual" and temporarily relaxed at best (worst?)
Instead of doing this and holding yourself back....ENGAGE with your mind. Have an internal dialogue. Direct the erratic energy of emotion into questioning itself. It may go something along the lines of: "Oh shit, I'm PISSED... ok...what is going on here..what was I expecting...what was the last thing I was thinking of...would I have responded this way if it was anyone else....has this happened before...is there a pattern." You have to be conscious enough to realize you are emotionally moved....and interrogate yourself as it is happening. This is incredibly difficult friend, and the majority of humans that have ever existed are not willing to even try things like detachment and internal dialogue. So kudos to you for seeking help, man. Don't let people who are seemingly more settled make it sound easy....
This internal dialogue is very similar to Gurdjieff's Fourth Way concept of "self-remembering" if you want new research links.
A person CAN'T simply detach without practice (engaging your explorative inner-dialogue being practice) It is a habit to develop, a skill to learn....if you fight through it, you slowly become less and less a slave....as I said, check out the Fourth Way Teachings... this site helped me when I was in similar shoes you are in: http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/system/hermind.html
Hope this may provide you relief, friend.
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Edited by FlantasyFlan (07/31/16 12:09 AM)
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thesupersoap33
curious george



Registered: 06/28/16
Posts: 338
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: FlantasyFlan]
#23495587 - 07/31/16 01:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks! I will keep practicing. I keep reading this book, "...as a brother" and I just question it a lot, but try to accept what it is saying. I am blocked, so that in itself is a joke. I'll fight anyone on anything right now. It said something about loving yourself and about how all devices will eventually fail a person. From my experience, family support failed when I realized they weren't there for me when I was small. Job and education failed me when I didn't get what I wanted or felt I deserved. Somewhere in me there is this structure of things I tell myself are just so, and that's the way it is. But the world around me says, it can't be so, those are things you built because you can't control anything. And I tell myself that I control things and that if I do A and B and C I will get D. This is a lie. Or I feel like it is a lie and anything in my head on loop that doesn't help me makes me ANGRY. I used to be able to avoid this anger, but it's turned into depression.
So to participate in my anger instead of labeling at something else and pretend that I am somehow protected from it seems ridiculous and that makes me even more angry!
"Slave" is an interesting word. To feel like less of a slave would be good. What brought me and others to this point of feeling like a slave? How we were treated by caretakers? Feelings that we tried to hide?
Thanks again for all the help! I must admit, I never got on a good regimen with psychedelics or felt like I was ever using them in the right set and setting. They can be brutal.
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FlantasyFlan
A Baby



Registered: 07/30/16
Posts: 4
Loc: ...
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: "I come as a brother" (bartholomew) Is detachment healthy? [Re: thesupersoap33]
#23495673 - 07/31/16 01:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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No problem. I have a question with your book, as I'm not familiar with the entity Bartholomew: Does he(?) talk about the people in your life being mirrors to aspects of yourself? As if the terrible things that happen to you are opportunities to learn about yourself and grow from? I ask because one of my favorite channeled entities, Michael (from the Michael Teachings)says something along the lines of that when we aren't incarnated and we are planning a lifetime to participate in, we (the higher Self)throw in B.S. to learn lessons from. This is the only thing that kept me sane at some points, and so I'm wondering what universal view Bartholomew teaches, if you don't mind sharing.
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