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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: KajSam]
    #15498608 - 12/11/11 04:27 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have noticed the same thing with liberty caps.

I think the cold/paralysis effects has to do with psilocin affecting the peripheral nerve system. Perhaps causing vasoconstriction... We normally only talk about how psilocin act in the brain (CNS) but serotonin receptors are common in many parts of our bodies.

One thing I have noticed is that if I smoke just a little bit of cannabis during the trip, the paralysis and coldness goes away. It's like I can hear "cracking" noises in my limbs when they return to their ordinary, free moving state and the temperature rises, and I can remove the blankets I needed a couple of minutes ago to feel warm.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: knarkkorven]
    #15500333 - 12/11/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think that's normal, the cold effects I mean.  It's the paralysis, i.e., almost complete lack of voluntary muscle control and/or an extreme temporary weakness (hard to tell which at this remove) that was unusual.

:peace:PS


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Offlinehorus_92
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
    #15802024 - 02/13/12 08:35 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Strychnine is a naturally occurring indole alkaloid.  This does sound something like strychnine poisoning really.  Is it impossible that woodloving species produce strychnine, or perhaps a chemical like it?  I've found scattered reports of similar things from cubensis, but it's hard to say if it's just not a side effect of a serotonergic drug.

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: horus_92]
    #15804773 - 02/13/12 07:05 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Old thread, but i will add something to it.

I dont get muscle paralysis as severe as wobbly legs or not being able to use my hands, i once had a habit of eating P. Subaeruginosa i picked from the wild, i would often get paralysis in my fingers, toes and face.

So much to the point that on one trip i was left with two lazy eyes for 48 hours, to the point that no matter how hard i strained i couldn't open them, resulting in an inability to see properly.

As for my toes and fingers, i have noticed that the tips of them become numb and unresponsive to commands when this is happening.

Yuck

To add weight to the idea, boiling does seem to prevent this from happening in most cases.

(i was afraid it would not go away at the time , and as such have stopped eating wild wood-loving psilocybes).

In my experience it doesn't sound/feel like strychnine poisoning, although it could be a smaller dose that what is necessary to cause spasms.

It would make sense if they were using it as a pesticide, or perhaps the mycelium is taking it or something similar up from the substrate (seeds, wood or bark containing it?), but the symptoms dont seem to match up (at least in my experience, low doses of strychnine are believed to be stimulating, and high doses are lethal)

If i was to take a stab at it, i would say it would be something similar to Botulinum toxin in small doses being present in the mushrooms, from bacteria found in the environment they grow in, perhaps -in- the basidiocarp themselves...

Given that botox is a protein and denatures at temperatures below boiling (60C), it seems like it, or some other protein would be a more likely candidate.

:2cents:

<3


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InvisibleFrizzie
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Nobitte]
    #15813441 - 02/15/12 12:44 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)



In this pic of a pile of Azures you will see one on the right side
of the pile with a heavily bluing area and a cracked stem.

This one mushroom I remember looking at it thinking it was so cool an
potent but I twisted the stem and it opened to a black ooze/slime inside
the stem and it stunk. I'm not a mycologist but I'm not stupid either
and I knew it was a foreign bacteria or contamination that had gotten
into the stipe while it was growing.

Of course I did not eat this one to find out but I imagine it could
have been a bad deal if I did... Also I've seen many pictures of peoples
finds here and some of the stuff they eat just blows me away! Even when
I'm picking edibles I dont/wont eat marginal stuff. Stuff with rotten
spots or blackened parts. I'll either throw the shroom totally or cut it
and clean it to the bare bones.

With Cyans especially under brambles they always have blackened rotten
stuff on them.

I think its possible that we are talking a foreign contam causing this.
Also imagine that it causes severe gastric upset. Maybe this is also why
boiling negates the effect.

Peace,
Frizzie


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Frizzie]
    #15814029 - 02/15/12 03:20 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Strange, OK, because the one patch of Ps. cyanescens that hosed me I did indeed consume as tea...

:peace:PS


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
    #22504414 - 11/10/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forager said:
As many of you will know, Psilocybe azurescens, a member of the P. cyanescens complex, is the most potent of the tryptamine bearing fungi.  Because of this it is quite the enticing mushrooms and has been the subject of many threads here.  After looking through many of these threads, however, I have become aware of a repeating occurrence with these mushrooms; that some people, when consuming these mushrooms, experience temporary paralysis and other bizarre motor function issues.
Many people swear that this has happened to them, and that they lay paralyzed throughout their entire trip.  Paul Stamets (I have been told) has even given lectures addressing this topic. So?  Where is this temporary paralysis coming from?  I really have very little idea of what causes it.  It could be the unusually high levels of Baeocystin found in P. azurescens.  It could also be related to botulism bacteria, or even some foreign chemical that the mushroom has somehow absorbed and amplified.  Anybody with any knowledge or theories please weigh in.

A link to a topic explaining several instances of this and Paul Stamet's view on the matter:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9830137#9830137
Another post of a user reporting convusions:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/11388213




Bump.

Does anyone know if anything new has come up in the past 5 years on this subject? Please and thank you.

Edited by Adden (11/10/15 11:06 AM)

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22506241 - 11/10/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe because the wrong species was identified?

For example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344063

That, or they were just tripping really hard and *thought* that was the case...

I don't see that as being too far fetched.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: micro]
    #22506299 - 11/10/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

That's what 95-99% of the research I've done said. I've taken high doses of LSD before in which I couldn't move to save my life. There are some members on other forums saying the same as you did.

I'm going to be monitoring this thread and following up as long as I can hunt actives (physically or climate). My wife took an eighth of fresh azzies last night and was relieved of her pain, had uplifted mood, there was minor anti-inflammatory response but there are variables I have to eliminate. Personally I didn't benefit off a few fresh grams last week except feeling fun.

Unfortunately, I think for this to truly work you have to be in the field which would be potentially dangerous. I had to look long and hard for information on it and I don't remember the last time I've had to put so much effort into Google and the search engine here.

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22506592 - 11/10/15 06:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Dys said:
That's what 95-99% of the research I've done said. I've taken high doses of LSD before in which I couldn't move to save my life. There are some members on other forums saying the same as you did.

I'm going to be monitoring this thread and following up as long as I can hunt actives (physically or climate). My wife took an eighth of fresh azzies last night and was relieved of her pain, had uplifted mood, there was minor anti-inflammatory response but there are variables I have to eliminate. Personally I didn't benefit off a few fresh grams last week except feeling fun.

Unfortunately, I think for this to truly work you have to be in the field which would be potentially dangerous. I had to look long and hard for information on it and I don't remember the last time I've had to put so much effort into Google and the search engine here.




You'll likely find better information if you search pubmed.org rather than a brute-force Google approach.

That will also contain most case studies if one were present.

"Psilocybin paralysis" doesn't bring anything up except some obscure article in Czech. Looking at papers that cite it, it doesn't appear to be anything significant that is of relevance here.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: micro]
    #22506632 - 11/10/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I know it's more of crossing fingers.. promised the wife I'd go to the ends of the earth to help her. Now that we are here I'm just hoping. I have some notes from last night and we are going to both try tonight.

I did find a few but again just conflicting. I've had hallucinogens and even weed put me in a severe couchlock state. I can see a novice reading a post that may have just been potency and inexperience.

I found someone with JSTOR and he is helping but I need to refine my search.

On the bright side, the more azzies I find, the more information we can gather. If my dose doesn't do anything maybe we can narrow it down more; or if mine does help then perhaps it's tied to nerves as I have bundles of them pinched from spinal damage.

I guess the best I can do is keep reading and searching and keeping notes of how it effects us both. The moment I get couchlock "paralysis" from it and I'm not achieving psychedelic effects, well, that's when it becomes interesting.

I do have to say though that there must be some type of anti-inflammatory response in an early 30s female. Her localized swelling in her back is the least it's been since who knows when.

But then again it could be a number of things; e.g., me cooking dinner for a few days, running all the errands and doing all the housework so she wouldn't have to do a single thing while I was out hunting. Could've just been bed rest.. on the other hand she's been on bed rest awhile... perhaps it was just enhanced mood that relaxed her muscles.

If I get lucky while hunting and score big, I'd like to see what happens with some fresh out of the ground and get a cab back to a hotel room.

More to come, and eventually in my journal. Will compare with psilo cubes we they start pinning around Christmas :wink:

Thank you for your time.


Edit: Spelling/auto-correct.

Edited by Adden (11/10/15 07:12 PM)

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22506707 - 11/10/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

No prob!

For what it is worth, P. cyanescens is indigenous to the Pacific Northwest...

I'd think anything that extreme would have made to the journals by now.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: micro]
    #22506737 - 11/10/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I know.. but when you love a woman who is sick and you promised to do everything in your power to help make her better while she fades away in front of your eyes for over ten years.. I don't know, they don't do enough studies on magic mushrooms anyway.

She's going for 1.5g 24h fan dried shortly, she told me to take the 3.5g cap and see what happens on my end. Potency test from a patch I'll be revisiting with similar weather patterns.

I've been getting messages from people who use cubes for fibro/MS migraines and there is success on both fronts but with homegrown cubensis. I'm awaiting for permission to put them in my journal anonymously.

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22507021 - 11/10/15 08:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Fibromyalgia? I don't think this can be effectively diagnosed; I've wondered if it isn't just a cop-out used by doctors for an inexplicable set of symptoms. In any case, its lack of specific observable pathology could be indicative of a psychosomatic read that as: IT IS ALL IN YOUR HEAD!!! underlying cause.

Multiple Sclerosis however, *is* a real (autoimmune) disease, but headaches are not a very good indicator, IMHO. There have apparently been a few studies linking MS with migraines, apparently. Has she been previously diagnosed with MS? Or is it paralysis and migraines that led you to MS?

If this were several years from now, you could be blaming polio... :rolleyes:


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Edited by micro (11/10/15 08:57 PM)

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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: micro]
    #22508617 - 11/11/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

"Fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS) is a controversial pain disorder. In biomedical lexicon FMS is a functional somatic syndrome, or an illness for which there is no organic explanation or demonstrable physiological abnormality. Approximately six million Americans are diagnosed with FMS; nearly all of those diagnosed are women. I approach FMS using insights from the illness experience and identity formation literatures. In particular, I explore the mechanisms within FMS self-help literature that facilitate the creation of an illness identity. Through a qualitative analysis of the five best-selling FMS self-help books, I demonstrate how a public FMS illness narrative encourages the organization of dissimilar experiences into a unified illness identity. Additionally, I demonstrate how the permissive boundaries of this identity function to reduce self-doubt and alienation in a context were biomedicine is unable to make FMS visible. I support these claims using interviews with FMS sufferers to show how they read these texts into their lived illness experiences and how their lived experiences are read onto these texts. Finally, I contend that the processes of illness identity formation described here are not exclusive to FMS or limited even to other contested illnesses. The formation of illness identities is a common consequence of participation in health-related, self-help communities generally and is integral to contemporary processes of medicalization."

Edited by Adden (11/11/15 11:00 AM)

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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22508762 - 11/11/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

What I don't get is why is there so much anecdotal evidence supporting it? You know if they were legal that big pharma would rape the fuck out of that money train. Indeed, imitrex works for migraines and cluster headaches.

What would drive a person to lie about the effect? Here:

"and no i was not in any pain... I was...numb ...the absence of all sensation or tactile ability".

"I asked Stamets about this at a lecture once ... he said maybe baeocystine, but whatever the case it could be boiled off when making mushroom tea".

"I think the cold/paralysis effects has to do with psilocin affecting the peripheral nerve system. Perhaps causing vasoconstriction... We normally only talk about how psilocin act in the brain (CNS) but serotonin receptors are common in many parts of our bodies."

"For migraines, I usually take between .25 and .50 g. Kind of crazy how such a little amount could work so well. It has worked better than anything else though, and it works nearly every time. The only couple of times it "didn't work", it still brought pain down enough for me to function.

You see lots of people saying that it works wonders for migraine and cluster headache sufferers...but not much science to back it up or explain it. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it works for other physical pains too. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing someone on here say cubes helped a lot with their chronic back pain."

"The paralysis like effect of cyans and azures I've heard of seems like it could have some medicinal value [on migraines and nerve sheathing disorders]."


Someone mentioned this:

"Maybe its like some are with cannabis= is this really medicine, or are you just trying to get high kind of thing."

^ If there is anything to it, people would just roll their eyes and say "yeah okay buddy" and move on.

Edited by Adden (11/11/15 10:59 AM)

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Adden]
    #22508877 - 11/11/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Lol, I was defining psychosomatic there.

For headaches, it's a mild vasoconstrictor so maybe similar to having a bit of coffee.

I'm not sure there is much more to it than that.


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Offlinewicca mixer
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: knarkkorven]
    #23481729 - 07/27/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Iv'e not had paralysis on liberty caps but I have had the weird numb face thing that feels like I'm wearing a mask over my face (maybe a slight spider web sensation to it). I also sometimes get a thing where the muscles in my arms will randomly tense so that my arms go into a raptor dinosaur kind of position. My arms don't get paralysed and I can stop doing it if I want to but I find it quite a soothing sensation. Iv'e not looked into if it might be strychnine causing it or that because Iv'e never looked on it as a problem or worry.

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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: wicca mixer]
    #23482241 - 07/27/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Strychnine in psilocybe ? certainly not ...


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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
    #23656134 - 09/18/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hello! This has been a topic of conversation in a number of other threads. I have pointed this out before but I'll do it again... IF YOU ARE CONSUMING MUSHROOMS FROM ANY PUBLIC PARK IN OREGON OR WASHINGTON THEN YOU ARE AT RISK OF INGESTING THE FOLLOWING CHEMICALS WHICH ARE SPRAYED REGULARLY:


PARK SERVICE ZONES APPROVED LIST
Areas of pest management: General community, neighborhood, regional, and urban parks.
HERBICIDES
Primary choices:

Gallery 75 DF (isoxaben) Used on shrub beds, tree circles, and other areas. Can be used in combination or rotation with oryzalin to broaden the spectrum of weeds prevented.

Garlon 3A, Lilly Miller Brush and Vine (triclopyr amine) Selective products for woody, difficult to control perennials. Used in spray and cut-stem applications, also for invasives and habitat restoration. Ranger Pro, Roundup Pro Concentrate, RU ProDry, Rodeo, Aquaneat,

Aquamaster (glyphosate) Primary vegetation control product used with other methods in shrub beds, tree circles, bare ground, and on invasive weeds.

Surflan AS (oryzalin) Used in shrub beds, tree circles, fence lines and other park areas for weed control. A primary liquid form preemergent product.

XL 2G (benefin+oryzalin) Combination product for wider spectrum weed control. Useful in sites where liquid products are more difficult to apply. This is a primary granular preemergent product.
Specialty uses:
DeMoss, Garden Safe Moss and Algae Killer, others (fatty acids) Moss control desiccant. For structures and non-vegetated surfaces. Not typically used, but possible sporadic use.

Scythe (pelargonic fatty acid) Minor use desiccant used for top-kill of early-stage, easily killed weeds.

FUNGICIDES

Fertilome Liquid Systemic Fungicide (propiconazole) Possible use for disease control for high
value plants in short term, special situations where long term plant health is affected. Typically not used, in park zones but retained for unusual circumstances.

Microcop (copper sulfate) Copper soap (copper octanoate) Possible use for disease control for high value plants in short term, special situations where long term plant health is affected. Typically not used in park zones, but retained for unusual circumstances.

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