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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23514547 - 08/05/16 10:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
rgv, are you saying that memory and experience, or the recorded sensations of an event and the perception of the event, are identical (or at least morphologically the same) processes?  If so I think I agree.  It is always right now.




yes if you mute the inclusion of perception for the basic event.
perception is more dependent on other factors, and follows sensation or recalled sensation; both of which are the activation of the same clusters of cortical neurons.

same as if a brain surgeon stimulated these neurons.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23514556 - 08/05/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:

Yes, but it is two way.  Sensation comes back as remembered sensations that have tags on them from phylogenetic DNA then interpreted by the the limbic system.  And there are two ways memory may hold things we never sensed in a waking state.  Genetic memory and information from what are called dreams.




ther is no dna tagging in memory - stop right there.




Meanings interpreted by the limbic system could be based in phylogenetic memory, DNA responses.  Its unconscious, so no one knows. 

Do not try to say that people do not have feelings about their dreams.  Those feelings come from the limbic system, and since dreams of the unconscious, are in the same place as phylogenetic DNA, there is no saying.  A big maybe.  We do not know enough to say one way or the other.



regurgitation of unfiltered reading by people who are dreaming it up - you could have stopped earlier and seemed more intelligent.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23514606 - 08/05/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
I don't think there's sensation in the brain itself no, hence why we can have open brain surgery while awake.
I think the brain processes sensation for the rest of the body but it doesn't have sensation itself.



the sensation that occurs IN THE BRAIN is considered as thought, however, without the signals hitting the brain there is no sensation in the body
and
during surgery of the brain,
if parts related to the body map are touched
it feels like parts of the body are being FUCKED with.
this is extremely important.




There is epigenetic tagging likely caused by the experiences that form our memories.
Quote:

In its modern sense, epigenetics is the term used to describe inheritance by mechanisms other than through the DNA sequence of genes. It can apply to characteristics passed from a cell to its daughter cells in cell division and to traits of a whole organism. It works through chemical tags added to chromosomes that in effect switch genes on or off.




There isn't sensation in the brain, only chemical and electrical information processing so I don't know what you're on about.
When nerves are cut the electrical information they carry cannot reach the brain and therefore cannot be processed and sent back to the point of origin to form sensations.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: sudly]
    #23515092 - 08/06/16 04:54 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

sudly;

yes the nervous system and the brain do use chemistry to power the electrical signals to and from the brain. No- epigenetics is not part of nerve conduction nor is it part of engendering knowledge from one generation to another in our species (nor is it possible in any species, since cognition is not a function of individual nerves, but of a chorus of nerves activated in conjunction at the same moment with each other)

yes if specific nerves are cut parts of the body like limbs will become inaccessible to the person for sensation or movement.

however if the related parts of the brain are touched during surgery, it will feel like the disconnected parts of the  body have been touched. the experience is documented and known, and the physiognomy map has been made that tells us that particular parts of the brain are always referencing specific parts of the body even if they have since been disconnected, or amputated.

As to your comment above:
the cutting of nerves is as unrelated to brain epigenetics as Donald Trump's claims about Hillary being the Devil. you could have stopped commenting long long ago and still have appeared to have had a few valid ideas in this domain.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23515182 - 08/06/16 06:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Seeing as epigenetics influence how the body reads genes there is merit in saying they can affect nerve conduction and knowledge from one generation to the next through behavioral and physiological changes.

I agree that particular parts of the brain are referencing specific parts of the body but that doesn't mean the brain itself has sensation.

I still don't see any point in your comments.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (08/06/16 06:31 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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this is a good time for a cat video [Re: sudly]
    #23515280 - 08/06/16 07:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Seeing as epigenetics influence how the body reads genes there is merit in saying they can affect nerve conduction and knowledge from one generation to the next through behavioral and physiological changes.

I agree that particular parts of the brain are referencing specific parts of the body but that doesn't mean the brain itself has sensation.

I still don't see any point in your comments.



let that be for now
I will point at something that seems unrelated but is really way more related than epigenetics.

the retina of the eye converts light patterns into chorused nerve signals.
in physics we call this conversion transduction.

the visual pattern is transduced into nerve generation and that radiates to the visual cortex.
In the cortex a pattern of excited neurons generates fields of electricity that can be picked up by electrical sensors.
basically the transduced light energy at the retina is re-transduced to electrical fields after nerve conduction. Using a high resolution arrangement of electrical detectors on a cat's brain the following experiments (in the video) show this effect:


cats have been subjected to experiments that reveal this very process.

the important issue to understand is that cortical field energy from sensory (visual) events in the cortex are also input to other events in the cortex.

they are picked up as field peaks and transduced (to neural activity) and copied, or moved to other parts of the cortex and are mixed with input from other senses. Thus the cortex picks up field energy - not just chemical synaptic circuitry... this is proven by the experiments in which electric probes to the cerebral cortex stimulate ghost sensations in limbs. similar to the retina picking up light energy, cortex picks up electrical field energy from itself. The cat vision video helps clarify this as well.

The whole cortex, in a manner of speaking, is akin to the retina (not just for light)
but for all transduced sensation.
Moreover (unlike the retina) the cerebral cortex is able to link things that happen together at the same time in such a way that if part of the pattern comes up again, the rest of that original pattern of activity may also unfold (this is the essence of associative memory).

fixing memory is a molecular biological event and genetics will affect how well the linkage system works in a general way.

Anyway, you may not understand this or may not want to understand this, but it is probably the closest you will come in your lifetime to getting a glimpse of how the brain works:
Mental activity is a kind of associating vision which sees itself. (this is akin to sensation i.e. memory is the sense of previous sensation).
The seeds for all mental activity are in sensation including mental activity itself.


--------------------
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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23515403 - 08/06/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:

Yes, but it is two way.  Sensation comes back as remembered sensations that have tags on them from phylogenetic DNA then interpreted by the the limbic system.  And there are two ways memory may hold things we never sensed in a waking state.  Genetic memory and information from what are called dreams.




ther is no dna tagging in memory - stop right there.




Meanings interpreted by the limbic system could be based in phylogenetic memory, DNA responses.  Its unconscious, so no one knows. 

Do not try to say that people do not have feelings about their dreams.  Those feelings come from the limbic system, and since dreams of the unconscious, are in the same place as phylogenetic DNA, there is no saying.  A big maybe.  We do not know enough to say one way or the other.



regurgitation of unfiltered reading by people who are dreaming it up - you could have stopped earlier and seemed more intelligent.




Which, on your part interprets as, I made my point about the unconscious and limbic reference to memory of sensation and phylogenetic DNA  from dream states.  Most importantly is the exercise of regurgitation pointing out of "maybe", or we do not know everything about the mind leaving a great deal of possibility.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: this is a good time for a cat video [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23516087 - 08/06/16 01:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Seeing as epigenetics influence how the body reads genes there is merit in saying they can affect nerve conduction and knowledge from one generation to the next through behavioral and physiological changes.

I agree that particular parts of the brain are referencing specific parts of the body but that doesn't mean the brain itself has sensation.

I still don't see any point in your comments.



let that be for now
I will point at something that seems unrelated but is really way more related than epigenetics.

the retina of the eye converts light patterns into chorused nerve signals.
in physics we call this conversion transduction.

the visual pattern is transduced into nerve generation and that radiates to the visual cortex.
In the cortex a pattern of excited neurons generates fields of electricity that can be picked up by electrical sensors.
basically the transduced light energy at the retina is re-transduced to electrical fields after nerve conduction. Using a high resolution arrangement of electrical detectors on a cat's brain the following experiments (in the video) show this effect:


cats have been subjected to experiments that reveal this very process.

the important issue to understand is that cortical field energy from sensory (visual) events in the cortex are also input to other events in the cortex.

they are picked up as field peaks and transduced (to neural activity) and copied, or moved to other parts of the cortex and are mixed with input from other senses. Thus the cortex picks up field energy - not just chemical synaptic circuitry... this is proven by the experiments in which electric probes to the cerebral cortex stimulate ghost sensations in limbs. similar to the retina picking up light energy, cortex picks up electrical field energy from itself. The cat vision video helps clarify this as well.

The whole cortex, in a manner of speaking, is akin to the retina (not just for light)
but for all transduced sensation.
Moreover (unlike the retina) the cerebral cortex is able to link things that happen together at the same time in such a way that if part of the pattern comes up again, the rest of that original pattern of activity may also unfold (this is the essence of associative memory).

fixing memory is a molecular biological event and genetics will affect how well the linkage system works in a general way.

Anyway, you may not understand this or may not want to understand this, but it is probably the closest you will come in your lifetime to getting a glimpse of how the brain works:
Mental activity is a kind of associating vision which sees itself. (this is akin to sensation i.e. memory is the sense of previous sensation).
The seeds for all mental activity are in sensation including mental activity itself.




BTW, this is very well stated.  I'll be studying it.  My browser must be way outdated, can't get the video to show up.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: this is a good time for a cat video [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23516513 - 08/06/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Seeing as epigenetics influence how the body reads genes there is merit in saying they can affect nerve conduction and knowledge from one generation to the next through behavioral and physiological changes.

I agree that particular parts of the brain are referencing specific parts of the body but that doesn't mean the brain itself has sensation.

I still don't see any point in your comments.



let that be for now
I will point at something that seems unrelated but is really way more related than epigenetics.

the retina of the eye converts light patterns into chorused nerve signals.
in physics we call this conversion transduction.

the visual pattern is transduced into nerve generation and that radiates to the visual cortex.
In the cortex a pattern of excited neurons generates fields of electricity that can be picked up by electrical sensors.
basically the transduced light energy at the retina is re-transduced to electrical fields after nerve conduction. Using a high resolution arrangement of electrical detectors on a cat's brain the following experiments (in the video) show this effect:


cats have been subjected to experiments that reveal this very process.

the important issue to understand is that cortical field energy from sensory (visual) events in the cortex are also input to other events in the cortex.

they are picked up as field peaks and transduced (to neural activity) and copied, or moved to other parts of the cortex and are mixed with input from other senses. Thus the cortex picks up field energy - not just chemical synaptic circuitry... this is proven by the experiments in which electric probes to the cerebral cortex stimulate ghost sensations in limbs. similar to the retina picking up light energy, cortex picks up electrical field energy from itself. The cat vision video helps clarify this as well.

The whole cortex, in a manner of speaking, is akin to the retina (not just for light)
but for all transduced sensation.
Moreover (unlike the retina) the cerebral cortex is able to link things that happen together at the same time in such a way that if part of the pattern comes up again, the rest of that original pattern of activity may also unfold (this is the essence of associative memory).

fixing memory is a molecular biological event and genetics will affect how well the linkage system works in a general way.

Anyway, you may not understand this or may not want to understand this, but it is probably the closest you will come in your lifetime to getting a glimpse of how the brain works:
Mental activity is a kind of associating vision which sees itself. (this is akin to sensation i.e. memory is the sense of previous sensation).
The seeds for all mental activity are in sensation including mental activity itself.




Epigenetics weren't unrelated, they were a response to this.
Quote:

redgreenvines said: there is no dna tagging in memory




That makes more sense than this.
Quote:

redgreenvines said: the sensation that occurs IN THE BRAIN is considered as thought




With no nociceptors in the brain, using the word sensation to describe it seems unfitting. 'Perception' is more fitting seeing as the brain processes sensation into memories but it doesn't experience them.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: this is a good time for a cat video [Re: sudly]
    #23516947 - 08/06/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

you will eventually find that without field receptors in the brain you did not even read this


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23517646 - 08/07/16 02:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
don't waste time trying to figure out what a subconscious is.

the term is too vague and no experts actually can agree.
this does not mean they are still looking at better ways of finding it.

it is a proposed thing based upon medieval hierarchical concepts with god on the top and angels fluttering  throughout.

you have consciousness which hosts body sensation with memory fixation and recall.

everything else in consciousness is a form of sensation or reconstituted memory fragments.

keep it simple s...




Subconscious is your feelings(physical sensations), conscious is your thoughts(memory formation/reconstitution), unconscious is likely the super-ego and cultural judgement. 

In my opinion.

I'm only disagreeing on semantics.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: sudly]
    #23517880 - 08/07/16 05:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I could not use "subconscious" that way consistently, but I could use "body" to represent "sensation" up to a point; and I could use "body based memory" to represent "feelings", this would work for nearly every case until laziness takes over.

the way you use "conscious" is good and includes the former (i.e. body, sensation, and feelings) - revealing that "subconscious" is not a valuable distinction to keep in the lexicon unless it begins to mean something much more specific (i.e it could be used to mean the aggregate of all potential associations - and if used this way consistently it would have a use that is not too far from the original invention).

the way you are using "unconscious" is not consistent with "a  man lying unconscious" - important words should not be made to have such a different meaning.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23517912 - 08/07/16 06:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hopefully this better describes my views on the unconscious.

The unconscious mind = super-ego and individually perceived social judgement.
The voice behind thoughts. 
The unconscious mind.

My ideas are based on foundational elements of both Freudian theory and the Triune Brain theory.

I believe there is the conscious mind which is the Ego.
The subconscious mind which is the ID.
And the unconscious mind which is the Super-Ego.

I like to simplify the model down to the ID(feelings), the Ego(thoughts) and the Conscience(sense of right and wrong).


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: sudly]
    #23517931 - 08/07/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

more simply - those are all thoughts and they will compete equally on the stage of consciousness.

enjoy


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23517939 - 08/07/16 06:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I like to believe in something too. :cookiemonster:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: sudly]
    #23518022 - 08/07/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

beliefs are important if you have to fill out forms.


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OfflineLRG
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23518483 - 08/07/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Two words: Ego Death. You can't destroy that which doesn't exist, if only temporarily. Yes our ego are real.


--------------------
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes!

"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: LRG]
    #23521641 - 08/08/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
more simply - those are all thoughts and they will compete equally on the stage of consciousness.

enjoy



okay, so you never actually explain anything.

all I am reading is how the brain controls body sensation.

well, we already knew that.

what does this have to do with ego?

Are you attempting to debunk the term with your pseudoscientific explanation of how the brain works?

(which doesn't debunk anything?)

its a universally agreed upon (at least in acadamia) concept


--------------------
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Light up the darkness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: hTx]
    #23522667 - 08/08/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
more simply - those are all thoughts and they will compete equally on the stage of consciousness.

enjoy



okay, so you never actually explain anything.

all I am reading is how the brain controls body sensation.

well, we already knew that.

what does this have to do with ego?

Are you attempting to debunk the term with your pseudoscientific explanation of how the brain works?

(which doesn't debunk anything?)

its a universally agreed upon (at least in acadamia) concept



I never have managed to make any explanations meaningful to you, but they are not pseudoscientific.

I am not concerned about ego at all, my comments are related to things we experience in our lives. sensation, memory, thought, dreams etc.

on the other hand I have rubbed up against your ego before and expect I will do so again.

I am sure that is something you understand, even if it is not an academic achievement.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Does anyone else think our ego doesn't exist and we're all the universe [Re: ruaware]
    #23545822 - 08/16/16 12:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think the universe exists like we think it exists.


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