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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) * 1
    #23478658 - 07/26/16 01:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I've been thinking about making a thread on this topic for awhile... anyways, I hear time and again from various people how they're dieting + exercising, but can't lose weight, put on weight, or make progress in general.

This isn't a problem for me, though I have a real medical disadvantage.
I grew up around athletes, bodybuilders and veterans, so I know some of the basics.




Here are some of the big mistakes I've noticed...

#1 Form: going through an exercise improperly is just a waste of time, agitating the muscles without really building strength or breaking them down properly. You can build up from a half squat to a full squat, but you still need to do the half squat properly. One should be aware of proper form, there's no reason not to be.


#2 Intensity: this is the same as with form, getting a half ass workout is a waste of time. Very obvious and very common in my observation.


#3 Stress: while a routine should be logical and intense in execution, one should not micromanage or push things too far. Implement a few small ideas at a time, get them under your skin over the course of a few weeks, and then think about the next step.


#4 Tendon health: this is kind of a trial and error issue, but your muscles grow / heal much faster than your tendons. Your muscles may handle a workout, while your tendons are being worn down, and often the resulting pain can take hours or days to really settle in.

On the same note, certain steroids will heavily promote muscle growth, while simultaneously weakening your tendons. This is not good, if you take steroids you need to be aware of the side effects and how to balance your doses. (I don't juice btw)


#5 Cortisol / Endurance Cardio: many people try to lose weight and base their exercise routine on long distance running, or some form of endurance cardio. This may well be a mistake, as after about 40min your body begins producing more cortisol... look into it.
My own recommendation would be a more intensive, short workout. This is common among bodybuilders.


#6 Cortisol / Calorie deficit: Another way to skyrocket your cortisol levels, is by cutting calories under a reasonable level (say 1800 for a man). This is stressful, unsustainable, unhealthy and basically tells your body to store these calories as fat. People can and do lose weight, this way, but its inefficient. A healthy diet with a solid routine should be enough.


#7 Working out for the crowd: People often alter their routine based on their surroundings, pushing more weight than they can manage with proper form, maybe too little weight, whatever. Just don't.




There's a lot more to say, but these were the key points I wanted to cover.
Comments / thoughts appreciated.

:aum:


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Invisiblefalsereality


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23478776 - 07/26/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Good thread amongst the majority of cretinous threads that is the pub. :thumbup:


Edited by falsereality (07/26/16 01:36 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: falsereality]
    #23480798 - 07/26/16 11:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks man

Bump


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23516761 - 08/06/16 06:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Bump


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InvisibleSanguin3
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) *DELETED* [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23516882 - 08/06/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Sanguin3

Reason for deletion: .


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Sanguin3]
    #23516995 - 08/06/16 08:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I can't say much about the cortisol - endurance connection, but I've read about the idea in a few places off hand.

With cardio I do HIIT "High Intensity Interval Training" runs, basically:
walk, run, sprint, run, walk.... run, sprint, run, walk... run, sprint, run, walk...

20min of that with some good hills and intense sprints (my max was 22mph), that's all the cardio I should be doing, always working to gain weight. Sprints produce a lot of testosterone (if I remember correctly), build larger muscles, and more strength, while burning less calories.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517187 - 08/06/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm a s&c coach and enjoy fitness talk.  I am shooting for my 500lb deadlift(currently @ 415lbs) as my next goal which is a bit away.  My input is know exactly what your training goal is: Hypertrophy, strength, fat loss, cardiovascular training, or maintenance.  That's really the only goals their is and if you don't know which you are shooting for you'll never get the desired result. 


I also believe that if you are backsquatting(you should be) a weightlifting shoe is a necessity followed by a belt, they make you stronger.

Also, valsalva maneuver.


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23517231 - 08/06/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


That's really the only goals their is...





:orly:


What about flexibility, balance, agility, etc?  I think many of those fall under performance. 


"Fitness" has always been a hard thing to quantify.  It is very subjective. 

I personally think it can broken up among 10 domains

Cardiovascular / respiratory endurance – The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

Stamina – The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

Strength – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

Flexibility – The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

Power – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

Speed – The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

Coordination – The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

Agility – The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

Balance – The ability to control the placement of the body’s center of gravity in relation to its support base.

Accuracy – The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.



I rarely meet someone with a goal in becoming proficient in all 10.  Generally, People want to master one or two domains.  And why?  Ego stroke?  Isn't fitness about being the best physical version of a human being that we can be?  And if that answer is yes, I believe it's crucial to train for all of these domains of fitness.


train and eat for performance(performance in and outside the gym).


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Invisiblekr0nik0
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #23517246 - 08/06/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's incredibly hard to tell a broad spectrum of people how to exercise, and what's right for them individually.

I agree that form is important to any exercise but the other points you raised were jibber-jabber at best.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: kr0nik0]
    #23517275 - 08/06/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kr0nik0 said:
It's incredibly hard to tell a broad spectrum of people how to exercise, and what's right for them individually.

I agree that form is important to any exercise but the other points you raised were jibber-jabber at best.




I'm not telling anyone how to do anything, the point of this thread was discussion.

Frankly you're a fool if you think my point on balancing out steroid use for the safety of your tendons, is "jibber jabber".
You just wasted 30 seconds of my time.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23517285 - 08/06/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:

My input is know exactly what your training goal is




That's a very good point, personally I have very specific goals, immediate and long term, it helps.



Quote:

Masked said:




Generally I view things the same, I don't have a list of traits, but work towards a variety of goals including balance, speed, etc.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517301 - 08/06/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ive been an extremely hard gaining/skinny/ectomorph my entire life. Seriously committed to bulking up. 15lbs by next summer is my goal.

Getting into a lifting routine is easy and enjoyable, its the kitchen work that is killing me. Trying to force myself to eat enough food, and the act of preparing the food is brutal. Also realizing I need to cut back on whey/dairy because its making me break out.

Any tips for a skinny kid like me to put on mass? Ive done the research and it ultimately seems like it all boils down to lifting big and eating even bigger.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23517348 - 08/06/16 10:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We have the same problem, I lost a lot of weight and just put 25'lbs back on over the past two months.
Have a long way to go...

Can't speak with any authority, but for me its a matter of passing 3000 calories a day, preferably 4000.
Not aiming higher, as it gets really disgusting pounding down 6k calories every day for months...
I don't supplement protein, eating 4000+ calories a day means I'm already getting more than 1-1 ratio.

Milk is the best, if you can throw in 400 calories of milk with every meal, that's about as easy as it gets
Shakes are good, but they're a lot harder to throw down than just eating several decent sized meals with a side of milk.
Peanutbutter works, but its disgusting to consistently eat a lot of it
Bread and Pasta are helpful

Tortillas are deceptively helpful, 440cal for 2 large ones, plus 300cal of beans... 740 for one meal
3 740 calories meals are past 2200 calories, add in 1600 from milk/shakes and you're at 3800
Usually I aim for 900cal for 3 meals, would prefer more small meals, but with work :shrug:


Good luck man
Hope this helps, it took me a long time to be able to put weight on, for the past few years I've been averaging 10+lbs of relatively lean gains per month, at about $250-300 in groceries.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517386 - 08/06/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for the response, what weight are you at right now if you dont mind me asking?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23517414 - 08/06/16 11:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Still too thin for my liking  :lol:

Only just started this cycle, give me a few more months.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517548 - 08/07/16 12:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


10+lbs of relatively lean gains per month,





I can dig up the science and editorials if you'd like, but this is so inaccurate and I don't want any hopefuls thinking this is going to happen

When a body builder does a lite cycle of steroids, he can hope to gain 15lbs on average in a cycle.  And most of it is water.  If he does it all right, he will walk away with 5 to 10lbs of real lean muscle. 

You are NOT gaining an average of 10lbs of lean muscle per month...and for years at that you say. 


According to the science on all this, if your genetics, diet/nutrition and gym routine all line up, you can earn a max of 2-3lbs of LEAN gains a month.  And that's extremely good. 

And you aren't gaining "lean" gains with a 4000 calorie diet with no protein supplement.

I'm not trying to come across like a dick. I'm just blunt



Staying in line with this thread...here is what I see as errors in the fitness world...

1. Not tracking calories and nutrition properly.  Far too many people over or underestimate what they are eating and do a piss poor job of tracking their calories and macros

2. Too many guys are obsessed with "bulking".  Eat to perform, nothing else.  Too many women are obsessed with cutting and "toning"....eat to perform.  The rest falls in place naturally if you are feeding yourself for performance properly

3. Too many people focus on one or two of the 10 domains of fitness I listed earlier.  This is error in my opinion


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Edited by Masked (08/07/16 01:13 AM)


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23517557 - 08/07/16 12:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Ive been an extremely hard gaining/skinny/ectomorph my entire life. Seriously committed to bulking up. 15lbs by next summer is my goal.

Getting into a lifting routine is easy and enjoyable, its the kitchen work that is killing me. Trying to force myself to eat enough food, and the act of preparing the food is brutal. Also realizing I need to cut back on whey/dairy because its making me break out.

Any tips for a skinny kid like me to put on mass? Ive done the research and it ultimately seems like it all boils down to lifting big and eating even bigger.




Can you tell me more about your lifting routine and tell me about what you eat on an average day(but be honest with yourself and me about your average day of eats)

It's all about progressive overload.  You should constantly be seeing an increase in your weight or reps.  Constantly pushing for new PR's (personal records)

What's your bench at?

What's your squat at?

What's your deadlift at?

How many pull-ups can you do?

Do you do any Olympic lifting?

What are your weaknesses inside the gym?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23517596 - 08/07/16 01:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting, my father said something similar.

This isn't the first time I've put on a lot of weight, with significant strength gains, while maintaining a fair fat ratio (around 10%). This weight also does not melt off quickly, as I learned from my last injury...


What this means on an academic paper, I don't know.
Practically speaking, I gain weight, size, definition, strength and endurance.

At the rate stated previously.


Thankfully I won't be participating in any bodybuilding contests, so my 200'lbs of muscle shaped fat won't impede any career goals.





Edit: I wanted to add that I appreciate your input.


Edited by Repertoire89 (08/07/16 01:30 AM)


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517608 - 08/07/16 01:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Lol I'm happy you feel good, but you aren't gaining 10lbs of lean muscle A MONTH, with a 4000 calorie diet and 10% body fat.  Not a scientifically possible man


That's another error I see in the fitness world.  People underestimating their body fat


What's your height, what is your weight...200lbs?  Unless you are 6'8 or bigger, there isn't a chance you are 10 percent

Your average 6'0 guy will have visible 6 pack abs,  but not shredded, be at 10-12% at roughly 175lbs. 

This is guidelines of course, but the data is pretty substantial on this to pull an average





I'm not here to tear you down, but you really don't seem credible to me :shrug:


But you enjoy fitness and claim to have almost supernatural results.  Who am I to tear you down?  Generally when people tear others down its because they are lacking in their own life

I'm nowhere close to 10% and I surely can't gain 10lbs of lean muscle a month.


I say, good on you.  I won't try to tear you down for your accomplishments


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23517621 - 08/07/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
Lol I'm happy you feel good, but you aren't gaining 10lbs of lean muscle A MONTH, with a 4000 calorie diet and 10% body fat.  Not a scientifically possible man

That's another error I see in the fitness world.  People underestimating their body fat




Maybe I need to work on my measuring  :strokebeard:



Quote:

What's your height, what is your weight...200lbs?  Unless you are 6'8 or bigger, there isn't a chance you are 10 percent

Your average 6'0 guy will have visible 6 pack abs,  but not shredded, be at 10-12% at roughly 175lbs. 

This is guidelines of course, but the data is pretty substantial on this to pull an average




I don't weigh 200'lbs, that wasn't meant to be taken literally :lol:

I'll post my stats when I'm happy with them, the second month of recovery from a year of hell is a bit soon to be getting into details. Will update or make another thread a few months down the line.



Quote:

I'm not here to tear you down, but you really don't seem credible to me :shrug:

But you enjoy fitness and claim to have almost supernatural results.  Who am I to tear you down?  Generally when people tear others down its because they are lacking in their own life

I'm nowhere close to 10% and I surely can't gain 10lbs of lean muscle a month.

I say, good on you.  I won't try to tear you down for your accomplishments




Your skepticism is understandable

I've always been happy with the results (since being able to make any in the weight department),
and am certainly optimistic about the future

Since this has been brought up twice, I'll look into it for the sake of greater understanding


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517637 - 08/07/16 01:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.builtlean.com/2011/10/13/how-fast-can-you-build-muscle-5-factors-that-affect-muscle-growth/

This link is pretty informative.


I'm 5'7.

At my heaviest, I weighed 198lbs.  I was a blob.  36" waist.

I dropped a bunch of weight in an unhealthy manner, and got to 160lbs.  Yet, the fat around the midsection remained and I still was a 36" waist jean size believe it or not.

In 7 months, I gained around 11lbs(if memory serves me correct) WHILE getting into a 30" waist Jean size.  That's true lean muscle growth.  Burning substantial fat while gaining weight

Measurements is where it is at.  Measure everything.  Keep logs.  Waist size above and below belly button.  Thighs.  Biceps, etc. 

The scale is borderline useless. 

I'm now at almost 2 years and I'm around 177lbs.  I've gained 15-17lbs of weight in about 21 months.  I think it's realistic to assume that 12-14lbs of that is pure muscle based off my measurements. 

But I'm not a lean guy.  For my height, I'd look shredded at 155lbs.  But I'm 177lbs....  The weight a 6 foot guy looks decently ripped at I might add


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23517648 - 08/07/16 02:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not going to latch onto this idea, but it could be an answer to this discrepancy.
From the article you posted.

Quote:

Muscle Memory
If you are 180lb then you decided to train for a marathon, you may lose a solid 20lb of muscle.  So how long will it take you to gain back those 20lb of muscle back?  Answer: Not long at all.  Maybe only a 1-2 months, because your body has a mechanism for restoring the previous homeostasis, which is often referred to as “muscle memory”.




Perhaps I'm just gaining back muscle which was worked for previously, combined with some fat + water
My weight fluctuates dramatically, one year to the next could be a 40'lb difference
And I've been very physically active for about 15 years



Quote:

Measurements is where it is at.  Measure everything.  Keep logs.  Waist size above and below belly button.  Thighs.  Biceps, etc. 




I agree about measurements and proportions, at the very least it is interesting


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #23517663 - 08/07/16 02:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I get painful tendinitis and related injuries all the time in my feet and knees. I know that's related to bad form for the most part. I can run a 33 minute 4 mile at the moment, trying to get it down to 31 minutes though. Been thinking about seeing a physical therapist about running form.

I had ACL and MCL tears in my knee about 10 years ago when I was 16, got surgery. All is good with it, but my leg kind of grew in this odd position over the years. My right foot is canted to the right a little bit at a rest position. I think this is the main cause for my bad form, and the main cause of tendinitis for me. It's hardly noticeable to the onlooker, but I do have a funny kind of step.

I don't really go to the gym much (primarily do push ups, pull ups and crunches if I'm working out alone). Been planning on starting to though. I have a gym a minute walk from my work building, and I get hour and a half lunches. Going to start fitting a 30-50 minute workout in there. Need to read up on good work out routines for someone who is going in solo.


Edited by PatrickKn (08/07/16 02:34 AM)


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23517713 - 08/07/16 03:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

patrickkn look into biking if you are having a lot of jolt related pain. i like to run but also work on my feet and can knock out 15 miles on a bike just as balanced as 4 miles on the run. without all the usual pains.

finally getting back into shape after 7 years. feeling good and have been building up a bit so looking for some progress.

Quote:

Masked said:
Quote:


That's really the only goals their is...





:orly:


What about flexibility, balance, agility, etc?  I think many of those fall under performance. 


"Fitness" has always been a hard thing to quantify.  It is very subjective. 

I personally think it can broken up among 10 domains

Cardiovascular / respiratory endurance – The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

Stamina – The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

Strength – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

Flexibility – The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

Power – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

Speed – The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

Coordination – The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

Agility – The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

Balance – The ability to control the placement of the body’s center of gravity in relation to its support base.

Accuracy – The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.



I rarely meet someone with a goal in becoming proficient in all 10.  Generally, People want to master one or two domains.  And why?  Ego stroke?  Isn't fitness about being the best physical version of a human being that we can be?  And if that answer is yes, I believe it's crucial to train for all of these domains of fitness.


train and eat for performance(performance in and outside the gym).




this is very relevant. some people get very much tunnel vision with fitness.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #23517722 - 08/07/16 03:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ReposadoXochipilli said:
patrickkn look into biking if you are having a lot of jolt related pain. i like to run but also work on my feet and can knock out 15 miles on a bike just as balanced as 4 miles on the run. without all the usual pains.

finally getting back into shape after 7 years. feeling good and have been building up a bit so looking for some progress.




That's some good advice, swimming is easy on the joints as well.
Biking doesn't get my lungs exerted no matter how hard I push, but if you're looking to burn calories :thumbup:


Great to hear you're getting back in shape, have a goal in mind?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23517732 - 08/07/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

not really, just overall. im 6'2" 175 to 185 depending on diet and drinking.

used to be in decent shape and not in horrible form now. just trying to live a more balanced life. going to be 30 right after new years and would like to be feeling decent and setting myself up for an optimistic future of physical resilience to the detriment of aging.

also do a lot of busy work bending and shaking, lifting, ect. need to keep up with the young ones physically.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #23517738 - 08/07/16 03:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

the only way i expanded my lungs biking was doing hills, most of that is practice of breath also though. ime if i am lazy and stop breathing well i suffer performance wise, and vice versa if you can keep your breathing going you can float through most failure zones endurance wise. lifting is another beast.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #23517781 - 08/07/16 03:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, that's one thing about your industry, there are always kids in their prime you have to work with.
Experience helps though, being able to work more efficiently to use less energy for the same results.


Ah, my legs always slow down before the lungs get to working.
Everyone has different needs though, running works for me, but those joint problems are notoriously problematic. My brother has arthritis in his ankle, very badass athlete, Infantry 10 years, knows what he's doing... but those joints.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23518028 - 08/07/16 07:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:

Can you tell me more about your lifting routine and tell me about what you eat on an average day(but be honest with yourself and me about your average day of eats)

It's all about progressive overload.  You should constantly be seeing an increase in your weight or reps.  Constantly pushing for new PR's (personal records)

What's your bench at?

What's your squat at?

What's your deadlift at?

How many pull-ups can you do?

Do you do any Olympic lifting?

What are your weaknesses inside the gym?




Thanks for your response. I originally first started lifting years ago when all the rage was the whole bro split thing, Mon-legs, wed- chest/tried/shoulders, fri-back/bicep and I add abs between the days. Recently been reading that most people don't recommend this kind of routine for a regular person not on steroids. Ive seen people recommend a split that works muscle groups twice a week such as full body workouts, or upper lower, upper lower. How do you feel about splits?

To preface my macros its important to say I'm built like a bitch- 5'6 at 120lbs. I feel like alot of numbers people throw at me are designed for people twice my size.

On a good day I'll eat more, but this id an average day if I'm being honest with you:

-breakfast: typically a bowl of oat cerial with almond milk (recently cut back on dairy because I was breaking out), banna, and a protein shake for some quick protein because I rarely have the time for a hardy meal.

Lunch: typically sandwhiches on quality bread that has all the seeds and oats in it. Somedays turkey, some days pbj with a ton of pb. Sometimes a can of tuna  Usually add items to this meal, lately its Greek yogurt and baby carrots.


Between: bag of mixed nuts, maybe an apple. Maybe another shake.

Dinner: this is usually where I try to make up and go big. Can be anything from chicken breast with rice/potatoes/pasta/veggies or a huge breakfast burrito with 3-4 eggs loaded up with all the fixings.

After dinner I try to force something down on workout days. On my perfect day might be more pb, or Greek yogurt, etc. Being honest with myself though usually I end up passing out.

Im having trouble even knowing where to begin telling you my exercise numbers. I haven't been doing a very good job tracking, I typically just load the bar up, go for failure every set, and try to keep things heavy enough that I fail at 6-10 reps.

Would you recommend I bring a notebook into the gym and start actually tracking numbers? It's all been going on feel and intuition since ive started. It seems pretty easy to know when I got a workout after the gym, and especially the next day when you can't even wash your back in the shower because your pecs are so sore.

As far as weaknesses, sometimes I think I can lift bigger, but without a spotter I'm afraid I'm going to end up killing myself. Deadlifts aren't a problem, but really pushing myself on excersises such as squat and bench where I cant just drop the bar I'm always slightly tentative. I'm sure this is slowing down my numbers.

I've only been on this routine for a little over a month now, put on 2lbs and I look great in the mirror, but I was in poor shape prior so I realize it's likely mostly noob gains right now.

I also sometimes feel like peoples gaining goals are way unrealistic for me. That's why I asked his weigt. For me to put on 10lbs a month seems ludicrous. I'll considering 1-2lbs a month until next summer a huge win, is that realistic?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23519209 - 08/07/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

how do you feel about splits





Here is where opinions come in.  And goals.  Is your goal overall fitness or building muscles for asthetics?  Do you just want to be stronger?  Or would you like to be stronger and more flexible? 

I described above how I believe fitness can be broken down to 10 domains.  Take a read.  Which domains would you like to be proficient in


That being said, I'm a fan of full body workouts with more emphasis on one particular lift or body part

I also like mixing HIIT with the weights some days and other days not. 

I also believe in seals/marine/boot camp mentality some days.  Push past your comfort limits...destroy body...put it under distress....push your mind past its breaking point, type shit.

You just need to find a program that's right for you.  The most important aspect is one you stick with.  That and progressive overload.  I feel that's essential to continual muscle building progress


Your diet: 

At first glance I estimate the following for daily totals:

2000 calories using the lowest examples.  2800 using the highest examples

Download my fitness pal app.  Use it religiously.  It's so nifty with the bar code scanner.  Track your calories.  You want 3000 calories but only if you are pushing the weight hard and often. 

You should be getting at least 130g of protein a day.  I see you are hitting this target and beyond.  Your fat is a little high.  But I wouldnt worry about fine tuning it at this point. 

You should supplement with a complex protein shake (one with carbs.  Not an isolate)

That would be enough to bump you up right there.  Keep eating the way you do


Now, I see a big error in your training.  Not keeping notes

for sure bring a notepad to the gym. Or make notes on your phone :cheers:  This is a must man

Eventually you will be so dialed in to where you sit on all your reps and weights, that you will constantly be able to push for progressive overload.  Always knowing when you've hit a new PR.  Not only does this motivate you mentally, it keeps you on track physically. 

You start taking notes, switch your isolate protein to a complex/carb protein powder, and train minimum 4 days a week....

I promise you will put on at least 15lbs of hard earned muscle in one year. Hit the weights hard.  Make sure you are squatting, benching, deadlifting.  Ask for spotters or put the safety bars up on squats.  Don't be shy.  Push to failure.  Constantly be striving and hitting that extra 5 lbs or that extra couple reps you couldn't get a couple weeks ago.

Lift big, eat big and fairly clean, take notes, sleep well.  You are well on your way :cheers:


*one final tip...don't forget to eat at appropriate times.  There is a 30 min window after your workout that is essential.  Consume at least 20-30g of protein and 60-90g of carbs.  Something with a high glycemic index, like white potatoes, rice or oats is most efficient. 


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23519236 - 08/07/16 03:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I was about 240 at my worst, and am now around 190, probably mid 20's in body fat percentage
got to work slow. It takes muscle ninty days or so to replenish and tendons are replaced about every two hundred.
they always say how important foot streangth is on Joe Rogan

I got lazy on upper body and now pullups are much more difficult


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23519248 - 08/07/16 03:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the tips man! Id say my biggest goal right now is aesthetics; however, all the men in my family die of heart attacks so overall heart health is definitely a secondary goal. So if I understood you correctly, you recommend working intensive cardio into my program even though im trying to bulk?

I understand food right after the workout is important, but other then that how important is food timing throughout the day? If I hit my macros at the end of the day, does it matter that some meals like dinner are way larger then other meals?

How do you feel about supplements for someone like me just starting? I bought some dextrose for post workout shakes, bcaas, and protein powder.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #23519250 - 08/07/16 03:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:

they always say how important foot streangth is on Joe Rogan




:pilkington:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23519251 - 08/07/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Alot of cardiac health is diet, especially if you are active
omega 3s and stuff


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #23519257 - 08/07/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No doubt, I always take fish oil supplements and try my best to cut out red meat/junk food. I quit smoking a few years ago as well.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: danielx]
    #23519265 - 08/07/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, working out for asthetics is out of my ball game :shrug:

From what I gather from the people around here and online:

-no, you don't want intense or excessive cardio in your program.  Don't overdue it on cardio

-keep the rep range between 7-12

-make sure you incorporate squats, deadlift and various presses and bench into your program



your supplements are a good idea.  I suggest that the dextrose is a waste for you with your current diet, post workout shakes and protein shakes.  But it can't hurt to have it handy.  I suggest creatine as well.  One of the only proven supplements

Good luck man :smile:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23519296 - 08/07/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I cycle, run, eat well, and do some minor weights and calisthenics.

I am happy with how I am, I don't do the things I do to look a certain way, I do them for the peace of mind they bring me. 

I eat 2500-3800 cals a day depending on what I do, usually 2500-3000 though.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Lucis]
    #23520547 - 08/07/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Rep range of 7+ isn't ever going to get you to your peak potential for strength, need to lift heavier weights.  If you're using weightlifting you can look into Prelipin's chart too which is good, here's a great article on it


http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/sports-performance/prilepins-chart/


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520566 - 08/07/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Rep range of 7+ isn't ever going to get you to your peak potential for strength, need to lift heavier weights.




My understanding in this regard, is that it depends on your goals.
Strength doesn't necessarily mean larger or more defined muscles, and endurance is another idea.

Personally I usually start a weight at 5-6 reps
Keep working with that weight until I can do 3 sets of 12
(With good form, about 6sec negatives and 2sec positives)
Add weight / repeat process

For that days main exercises, finish with statics, using false positives to push those statics to muscle failure.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520610 - 08/07/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What's your goal though?  That rep range is what you would use for hypertrophy.





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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520617 - 08/07/16 10:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
What's your goal though?  That rep range is what you would use for hypertrophy.








Which is exactly what Daniel wanted which is why my reply said

"Working out for asthetics is out of my ball park but if that's what you are looking for, 7-12 should be your rep range"

So you have just confirmed my original advice.  :thumbup:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520639 - 08/07/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good info in here, aye. 


I just started training again after a muscle tear in my hand, couldn't grip a bar for the first 3 months so I took a half a year vacation and got back into my other passion... growing magic mushrooms :smile:.  I started at 145lbs when I was 17, today I am 215 at 25 so the years of training were worth my time.  My brothers don't lift and it's obvious the effects weight training has had on my body.  I only strength train though so my goals are based on just squatting heavier and weightlifting these days.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520643 - 08/07/16 11:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
What's your goal though?  That rep range is what you would use for hypertrophy.








Nice chart  :strokebeard:


My goals are a little bit of everything, with an emphasis on hypertrophy.

Sometimes I'll throw in a 3-rep set, but usually its 6-12.
Never anything more than 12, closest would be statics.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520653 - 08/07/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That's definitely good results for power and strength and adding weight.  Well done.


Sorry to hear about the grip injury.  That would suck


I train and play with all rep ranges. 

But I often test my one rep maxes, 3 rep maxes and 5 rep maxes, amongs all my other training


Progressive overload.  Constantly trying to add weight or reps, week by week.

I find it extremely fun going for one rep maxes


I'm curious, care to share your one rep maxes for the following lifts...I'm curious how a guy much bigger than me stacks up.  I'm 5'7 and only 177lbs and enjoy being humbled :lol:  gives me goals


Clean and jerk?

Power clean?

Back squat?

Front squat?

Snatch?

Bench?

Deadlift?

overhead barbell press?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520658 - 08/07/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Lol I was talking to you initially I didn't realize I was conversing with masked and not you.  Yea that chart is legit, same with prilepin's chart.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520660 - 08/07/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Good info in here, aye. 


I just started training again after a muscle tear in my hand, couldn't grip a bar for the first 3 months so I took a half a year vacation and got back into my other passion... growing magic mushrooms :smile:.  I started at 145lbs when I was 17, today I am 215 at 25 so the years of training were worth my time.  My brothers don't lift and it's obvious the effects weight training has had on my body.  I only strength train though so my goals are based on just squatting heavier and weightlifting these days.




That's a lot of weight, about how tall are you?
At 5'6, I couldn't naturally reach 215'lbs at 15% or less bodyfat.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520683 - 08/07/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
I'm 5'7 and only 177lbs and enjoy being humbled :lol:  gives me goals




177'lbs sounds like a good range, at that point I would be more concerned with physique than gaining.



Quote:

Clean and jerk?

Power clean?

Back squat?

Front squat?

Snatch?

Bench?

Deadlift?

overhead barbell press?




This is something else I wanted to bring up, normally I cross-train between calithenics/weights/machines.

This time around, I'm experimenting with replacing weights and machines, with loaded calisthenics.
Its something I've wanted to try for awhile, to see what kind of results I could achieve.

My rucksack can carry up to 70'lbs, which is a lot more than I need for pullups :lol:
For legs, its another story, obviously 70'lbs is not a lot of weight.


Anyone ever try this?




Also curious about your thoughts on pacing, negatives vs positives, statics.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #23520692 - 08/07/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Clean and jerk 220lbs

Back squat 390lbs

deadlift 420 lbs

Bench 225

330lb front squat

OHP 190lbs

Like I said my goal is based off of pretty much just the squat because my shoulders are bad so I can't bench or jerk too much.  Although overhead pressing I believe has done nothing but benefit my shoulders.  Weightlifting wise... I am not made to be a weightlifter lol.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520701 - 08/07/16 11:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Constantly gaining man.  I have multiple PR's a month and don't plan on stopping.  I train in all 10 quantifiable domains of fitness I talked about in my earlier post...I train for performance.  The physique comes naturally and slowly and is just a bonus. 

And with PR's this regularly I will naturally keep gaining weight slowly I'm sure.  I'm okay with that.  But with all the type of training I do and trying to be proficient in all 10 domains of fitness, I'll never become a jacked monster.  I can see me levelling out around 185

But my goals are more performance based

Getting that next PR.  Getting that faster sprint time.  Learning a new skill

And how it all applies to my regular and work life.  It's an amazing journey


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520706 - 08/07/16 11:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

At 215, You were made to be more a weight lifter than I :wink:


Mine

Clean and jerk: 215
Back squat : 275
Front squat : 265
Deadlift : 395
OH press: 190
Overhead squat : 190
Bench : 220

I haven't went for one rep maxes on deadlift or overhead press in ages tho.  I'm due


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520711 - 08/07/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yea I'm just here for strength talk :lol: 

What is your guys front squat at?  That's something I could retest soon.

You guys have a good belt?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520714 - 08/07/16 11:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:

But my goals are more performance based




I'm essentially the same way, but hypertrophy is important until getting to a decent weight, and physique only needs a little consideration.

Performance, fitness, health, the sport itself, and how these translate into other activities.

Certain balance exercises like Pendulums are just great for everything, hiking, mtn biking, martial arts, working on a ladder.


It is amazing what one can do with their body.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520715 - 08/07/16 11:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Yea I'm just here for strength talk :lol: 

What is your guys front squat at?  That's something I could retest soon.

You guys have a good belt?




I posted my numbers in the reply before :cheers:


I don't believe in a belt.  I'm the only guy in our gym who doesn't use one

I have my reasons.  I'm sure I could lift a bit more just by putting one on but I'll pass.  When I start nearing 315 for a squat and 500 for a deadlift, I'll consider it


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520728 - 08/07/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:

What is your guys front squat at?  That's something I could retest soon.

You guys have a good belt?




Just getting started again, so my squat weight is nil  :lol:
Pre-injury I was at 280, 12 reps per set + statics

The rucksack has a belt :grin:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520739 - 08/07/16 11:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

PreparationH said:

What is your guys front squat at?  That's something I could retest soon.

You guys have a good belt?




Just getting started again, so my squat weight is nil  :lol:
Pre-injury I was at 280, 12 reps per set + statics

The rucksack has a belt :grin:




Is that your front squat weight?

What is your back squat?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520745 - 08/07/16 11:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I've never distinguished between the two, this is news to me


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520749 - 08/07/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
I've never distinguished between the two, this is news to me





Most on these boards don't train front so that's why I got you to clarify


You must man!  Barbell in the front rack position.  Tons of good YouTube videos will show you proper form.  Front rack takes some practice, especially if you have shitty mobility.  Elbows out, chest up


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #23520752 - 08/07/16 11:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I dunno what pendulums are but I think balance training is bs.  I've met a whole lot of people that have "good balance" but cant squat bodyweight but I've never met someone that can squat a heavy and have bad balance. Your time is definitely better spent just doing barbell lifts.


Recommend this read, worth the time:

http://startingstrength.com/article/balance_training#.Vtc0B_krJaQ


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520756 - 08/07/16 11:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

On the back for sure then


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520770 - 08/07/16 11:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
I dunno what pendulums are but I think balance training is bs.  I've met a whole lot of people that have "good balance" but cant squat bodyweight but I've never met someone that can squat a heavy and have bad balance. Your time is definitely better spent just doing barbell lifts.


Recommend this read, worth the time:

http://startingstrength.com/article/balance_training#.Vtc0B_krJaQ




That is a load of shit but you are entitled to your opinion

You train 2 out of 10 domains of fitness, from what I can tell.  Strength and power. 

Hardly develops a well rounded athlete  The best athletes in the world are proficient in the 10 key areas of fitness I stated earlier.  And balance is one of them

You are welcome to your opinion of course, as am I, so cheers to different training methodologies :cheers:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520774 - 08/07/16 11:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Pendulum




Not sure what the name of this exercise is...
You bend forward on one leg, so your torso and the other leg form a straight line (a T)
From there the torso raises back up while the raised leg swings below you and then up infront forming a right angle

I'll load weight on my back to do this
Picked up the habit to help stability during kicks

Will say it definitely helps for that purpose as well as a few others


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520776 - 08/07/16 11:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Welll.. Which parts did you disagree with exactly?  Do you have information on balance training studies and proof that it's not a waste of time and your time would be better spent not being under a barbell instead?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #23520793 - 08/07/16 11:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We can keyboard warrior all day....there are millions of opinions and hundreds of thousands of articles and editorials and studies that can support my stance or yours.  This proves nothing in the end, because of how subjective it is


I disagree with your statement that balance training is b.s.

You have horse blinders on my friend.  I've heard your ideas across multiple threads now.

And here's my take on it:

I think fitness can be broken up into 10 domains:

Cardiovascular / respiratory endurance – The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

Stamina – The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

Strength – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

Flexibility – The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

Power – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

Speed – The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

Coordination – The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

Agility – The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

Balance – The ability to control the placement of the body’s center of gravity in relation to its support base.

Accuracy – The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.


From what I've gathered...you are trying/or have become proficient in 2 domains.  Power and strength.  I'm very confident if you trained with me for a week, I could expose your weakness in the other 8 domains. 

And isn't true fitness about being the absolute best physical version of ourselves?

I don't think fitness is quantified solely about squatting 400lbs and deadlifting 500lbs

I don't think fitness is quantified solely by 6 pack abs

I don't think fitness is quantified solely by running a sub 5 minute mile


You have joked how you came in here just to talk strength. Lol. That's fine and dandy.  But, there is soooo many other aspects to fitness.  And balance is a key area.  A gymnast could easily expose your balance weakness, regardless how solid a base you think squatting and barbell work has given you


Each to their own of course.  But I'm gonna call bullshit where I see it.  And this is of course just my opinion too

Hopefully someone who reads this thread can take beneficial things from all our advice :cheers:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520796 - 08/08/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You didn't even have to type that just show me data please


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23520799 - 08/08/16 12:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You are a lost cause.  I'm not even going to waste my time

Get back to your squats


...don't forget your special shoes :lol:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23520820 - 08/08/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Balance is just a function of strength, which is why strong people aren't losing balance like weak people.  Training balance is a waste of time.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521154 - 08/08/16 05:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Balance is just a function of strength, which is why strong people aren't losing balance like weak people.  Training balance is a waste of time.




"Strong people" don't lose balance?  I'd love to see you walk a slack line even :lol:

Anyone can benefit from training specifically for balance.  Even strong people :rolleyes:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #23521169 - 08/08/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Balance is just a function of strength, which is why strong people aren't losing balance like weak people.  Training balance is a waste of time.



Yeah that's really a bit misguided man. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Strength and balance are two very different things. You know balance is all about the inner ear right?

Have you been training your inner ear...?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked] * 1
    #23521282 - 08/08/16 07:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I didnt read the whole thread, but i got down to 11% body fat while doing P90X3.

I love the P90X series, especially the third one as the workouts are only 30min and focus on the point of working harder for a shorter amount of time.

Anyway im with you masked.
Quote:

Masked said:
We can keyboard warrior all day....there are millions of opinions and hundreds of thousands of articles and editorials and studies that can support my stance or yours.  This proves nothing in the end, because of how subjective it is


I disagree with your statement that balance training is b.s.

You have horse blinders on my friend.  I've heard your ideas across multiple threads now.

And here's my take on it:

I think fitness can be broken up into 10 domains:

Cardiovascular / respiratory endurance – The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

Stamina – The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

Strength – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

Flexibility – The ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

Power – The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

Speed – The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

Coordination – The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

Agility – The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

Balance – The ability to control the placement of the body’s center of gravity in relation to its support base.

Accuracy – The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity.


From what I've gathered...you are trying/or have become proficient in 2 domains.  Power and strength.  I'm very confident if you trained with me for a week, I could expose your weakness in the other 8 domains. 

And isn't true fitness about being the absolute best physical version of ourselves?

I don't think fitness is quantified solely about squatting 400lbs and deadlifting 500lbs

I don't think fitness is quantified solely by 6 pack abs

I don't think fitness is quantified solely by running a sub 5 minute mile


You have joked how you came in here just to talk strength. Lol. That's fine and dandy.  But, there is soooo many other aspects to fitness.  And balance is a key area.  A gymnast could easily expose your balance weakness, regardless how solid a base you think squatting and barbell work has given you


Each to their own of course.  But I'm gonna call bullshit where I see it.  And this is of course just my opinion too

Hopefully someone who reads this thread can take beneficial things from all our advice :cheers:




Good post! If you truly want to be as fit as possible you should focus on all of those things masked listed.
:manofapproval:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Mr. Magic] * 1
    #23521299 - 08/08/16 07:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks man.  :cheers:


I did the original p90x twice, way back in the day.  They were tough at that point in my life

I'm not to sure what the new one's involve, but I do believe that type of cross training hits a lot of the domains of fitness listed above.  The only one I'd say it's lacking a bit in is power and strength.  The weights just never really get anywhere substantial.  No real barbell, heavy squatting, deadlifting or Olympic lifts

But someone could supplement that on the side and have a very well rounded program.

Regardless, I really support what p90x can do for the average person

:manofapproval: :raisemyglass:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked] * 1
    #23521323 - 08/08/16 07:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah it is lacking in that area, but i dont mind it. I found the lifting workouts to be just fine for me! Plus at that time i was lifting at school for football as well lol.

Now that i think about it more id say the original was the best. Ive done the orginal 2-3times back in highschool. Then on to the second and third one.

The third one they shorten the workouts down to 30-45min and focused on short breaks/fast pace. Its still very effective for the average person, and it focuses on all the key areas of fitness.

Theres even a pilates workout in the 3rd one! Yes you should do pilates even if youre a guy...lol


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Mr. Magic]
    #23521411 - 08/08/16 09:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yep, I expect this every time and no one ever refutes my claim with data.  You bring up slack lining, how exactly does one train to balance on a slack line other than using and adapting to a slack line?  The only training in a gym you can do for balance is getting your body stronger because as I said balance is a function of strength.  You disagree so tell me, how would you train someone for better balance on a slack line?  If I am so wrong, where is your data?

Why do people like Rippetoe also believe you can't train balance?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521433 - 08/08/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Stop trying to build an defense around specifically "slack lining".  It was an example of many.  And more precisely, the comment said "I would love to see you on a slack line".  And you hit the nail on the head...to improve balance on a slack line, you need to train with one.  Why would you deprive yourself of learning the coordination and balance it takes to do that?  So you can concentrate on squatting more only?

How fast is your mile?

Can you do hand stand walks, holds, hand stand presses and other gymnastics?

Can you snatch a respectable amount? 

Do you have flexibility for advanced yoga?


Could you run and bike the crazy miles fennario does?


So many aspects to fitness

Ripptoe was not proficient in all 10 domains of fitness and is a strength coach.  So all you are doing is continually confirming my position that you have horse blinders on and are completly biased when it comes to "fitness".  Not to mention how ignorant you are to what fitness encompasses.

You yourself said that you "came in here to talk strength only"

Good for you.  You can bring your insights on the 2 domains of fitness (power and strength), while the rest of us talk fitness as a whole


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23521466 - 08/08/16 09:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Just provide me data to prove me wrong what is so hard here?

Same goes for balance beam gymnasts.  To get better at balancing on the beam the only things they can do is strength train and practice on the beam.  What other balance training can they do?  You are arguing you can train a balance beam or slack liner for better balance, so what can they do to train themselves for balance exactly?


Lol, again balance is a funtion of strength, prove me wrong.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521492 - 08/08/16 09:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Why do you keep dodging all my questions but expect the courtesy of answering yours?


*i've already answered your question more than one way.  Balance can be trained for in many ways, strength just being one aspect

Do 15 year old Olympic gymnasts focus solely on squatting and strength?  Of course not. 


It's been proven without a shadow of a doubt that the only knowledge and personal experience you carry in regards to fitness, is in 2 domains.  Strength and power.  And your knowledge is mediocre at best.  You just parrot what google searches you find that support your stance on these 2 domains of fitness

I said it once and I'll say it again, please feel free share your opinions on these 2 particular domains of fitness while the rest of us discuss fitness as a whole

Strength and power are crucial to any good program.  But there is so much more

And not everyone has a performance based goal in this regard

A user earlier talked about asthetics being his goal.

Each to their own.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23521506 - 08/08/16 09:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No you haven't, tell me how would you train someone to be better balanced for a slack line or balance beam then?  Why can't you back up anything you claim with data while I can?


Balance training on a bosu ball:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19417231 Read the results, I am providing you with data and you are providing me with how you feel.  If you can't provide me with facts other than your feelings I guess we have to end here :shrug: at least anyone reading along will see that I actually have studies proving my point while you just ramble about your feelings of fitness.


Edited by PreparationH (08/08/16 09:48 AM)


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521524 - 08/08/16 09:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

"Balance can be trained for in many ways"

Again... How?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521565 - 08/08/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how_gymnasts_train.htm

An faq describing gymnast training.

"
Gymnasts have amazing upper bodies. While they certainly have great muscular development, their size isn't quite as big in-person at it seems on television. The vast majority of male gymnasts weigh less than 150 lbs.

Their leanness, which primarily is the result of their 30-plus hours of training per week, makes the muscle size they do have appear even larger. However, if you see them out and about in a T-shirt they will look "small" compared to the average bodybuilder.

In Terms Of Weight Training, Is The Focus With It More On Lifting Weights, Or Do Most Top-Level Gymnasts Incorporate A Greater Variety Of Bodyweight Or Plyometric Types Of Movements?

Most high school gymnasts train with only bodyweight exercises and plyometric type movements, although for the upper body this still represents substantial load (a 120-pound. high school gymnast doing a handstand push-up is pushing his entire weight; same for chin-ups).


I can link you too tons more, across all sports and different methodologies that show purely training strength does not make you a well rounded athlete


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521574 - 08/08/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Anyone reading with half a brain can know that you can find anything to support your stance in the fitness world.  You, a strength guy, are referencing ripptoe for gods sakes.

Anyone with any reading comprehension also won't miss my post where I said that you are a lost cause and I won't waste my time with you :lol:

your "data" is meaningless

It would mean something if you were counteracting someone saying strength doesn't matter, but that isn't the case


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23521581 - 08/08/16 10:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That doesn't even say anything about training balance anywhere.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521598 - 08/08/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
That doesn't even say anything about training balance anywhere.




Olympian gymnasts don't demonstrate balance?

:facepalm:


You are comical at this point :lol:


You have lost all credibility


Your last "data" you linked had nothing to do with this conversation

"CONCLUSIONS: The current study did not demonstrate any advantage in utilizing the BOSU Balance Trainer. Therefore, fitness trainers should be advised that each of the aforementioned lifts can be performed while standing on stable ground without losing the potential core muscle training benefits."

So because they performed on a bosu ball well with the core lifts they train regularly, this now means to you that "squatting and strength is all you need"?


Tell that to the Olympian gymnasts


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23521602 - 08/08/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So, how are they training balance then because it's not in what you posted.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521607 - 08/08/16 10:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
So, how are they training balance then because it's not in what you posted.





Sure it is.  Their entire program is laid out how they train for balance, for strength, for endurance and so on

Plyometric exercises being a big one


Are you purposefully being this obtuse?

Here is another.  Specifically, a strength group vs a balance training group.  Guess who performed better in balance?

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Horstmann/publication/11924891_Gain_in_Strength_and_Muscular_Balance_After_Balance_Training/links/02bfe50ced02babeef000000.pdf


Like I said, I could dig up tons of more examples how strength training is only one side of fitness.  But you are a waste of time.  Clearly.


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Edited by Masked (08/08/16 10:54 AM)


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521627 - 08/08/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Time for you to answer my questions...

1. How tall are you at 215lbs?

2. For a guy that trains all strength, why do I press and bench and clean as much as you? (A guy much bigger than me).  Granted, you squat and deadlift much more, but you are also bigger and it's also abundantly clear that you train squats and deadlifts more than anything else

3. How fast can you run a mile?

4. Can you do hand stand presses, walks and holds?  What about hand stand push-ups?  How many?

5. How would you train for a marathon?  Squatting?  :grin:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23522951 - 08/08/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

5'8, 215lbs, both shoulders are ruined from damage and dislocations in my youth, Mile run time? Fuck if I know these days I haven't ran a mile in a long time.  Last mile and a half was 13:08 though for some charity run, fastest mile ever was 6:08 while I was 175lbs at at 315lb back squat, my fastest 1.5 mile was 10:30.  That aint happenin now though.

How would I train for a marathon?  Write a year long program for it, I have my CSCS and bachelor's in ex sci, multiple years d1 coaching time too so I've been around.  I'm not pulling random shit off the web with any of this, it's all things I've worked with in school, in the weight room with teams, or my own conclusions.  Plyometrics and weight training train balance, but you're not directly saying "ok guys we're gonna stand on this plank and try to balance to get better at balance."

That's what I have been saying this entire time, if you are going anywhere and training your balance, you are wasting your time.  Balance is a function of strength, weak people can't right themselves and fall over, strong people don't.  To get better at walking on a tight rope only walking on a tight rope will make you better, not pendulums or bosu ball squats. 


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23522987 - 08/08/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That journal data they are testing people either using a rolling board, mini trampoline and large rubber ball and the strength training people were doing leg presses and leg curls.  Yea I would assume people that are standing on one leg or on a trampoline over 6 weeks will score better at balance than people doing leg curls no shit, but what about trainees back squatting heavy? 

In all of my years in multiple colleges we never once trained balance because if you are young and athletic, barbell movements is all you need to "train balance." 


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523009 - 08/08/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:  the exercise I described as a pendulum, will build muscle. Especially with weight.

The movement is parallel to many other movements, my balance is tested in the exact same manner while working on a ladder 20ft in the air with both hands fully extended at any angle manipulating tools, or loading up freight.

One could make the same argument about doing scales on an instrument, that you're better off just drilling repertoire, experience will show otherwise.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523025 - 08/08/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


To get better at walking on a tight rope only walking on a tight rope will make you better






Exactly.  I love how you are trying to bring plyometrics into the equation with your strength talk, after I'm the one who brought it up, with, "that's what I've been saying all along".  Bitch please.  You can stop your back tracking any time now.  It can be proven multiple different ways with multiple different examples....strength is only ONE aspect of fitness and to be a well rounded athlete(assuming you are training for peak performance and fitness), you need to train all domains of fitness.  That's what IVE been saying all along.  But you are being obscenely deluded and obtuse.

If people aren't training strength and power, I'd be calling them out.  Maybe even more so.  Very essential domains of fitness.  But you can benefit from training so many more domains as well.  Which is what I've been saying.

Besides, in regards to the one study I posted, explain to me how the balance training group had better results strength wise vs the strength group?


How old are you?  Lol you a vet of fitness at 25-30?  Please

And if you are much older than that, this will all make sense.  Your knowledge is archaic and outdated.  Your generation is trying to play catch up with all the new knowledge and sports training of today

This isn't a pissing match so I'm not going to get into my history of a life of injuries and physical work and fitness.  But just know, you gave me a lot of "fluff" when I asked you straight forward questions

1. You are 5'8. 215. Thanks. 

2.  I asked why a guy smaller, who doesn't train solely strength, has many comparable lifts...your shoulders are damaged.  Thanks. Which is why you favour squats.  Makes sense. 

3. Mile time.  You don't run anymore.  You squat.  Last time you remember 13 min. Thanks.  I don't care what it was once upon a time ago.  My point was to demonstrate you don't even run.  You train strength

4.  You didn't answer 4 because you probably can't understand why people would try to become proficient in such skills and physical feats.  This is because you train a small subsection of "fitness" as a whole.

5. You would write a year long program to prepare for a marathon.  Then gave me your resume. That's cool and all but not what I asked for.  What would your year long  program focus on?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523053 - 08/08/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean? I said weightlifting from post 1, weightlifting is plyometric.


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523094 - 08/08/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
What do you mean? I said weightlifting from post 1, weightlifting is plyometric.





I realize now more than ever you must mean to be deluded



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa82.htm

"Traditional weight training develops strength, but is not optimal at delivering the speed and power that excellence in most sports or physical activities demands"


Strength training with weights, which is what you have asserted all along as the be all end all, is not the same as a proper plyometrics program


I'm confident at this point that anyone with half a mind will be able to sift through this a realize that this debate looks ridiculous on your part.  And if I continue, ridiculous on my part.  It's just a circular discussion.  Like I said from one of my earliest replies to you...you are a lost cause

I've provided more than enough reasonable data, logic and input. 


I'm out



...don't forget your oly shoes people :douchewink:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523191 - 08/08/16 08:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You just claim I back pedaled on plyometrics though... weightlifting IS plyometric.  Anything that trains the stretch shortening cycle is plyometric whether it's snatching or doing walk off box jumps.  What is your point?  I came in here talking about just strength but that's not all I know.  And again with the weightlifting shoes.  Here's a question, why are all the weightlifters down in Rio using a weightlifting shoe?  Why are you against using one anyway, kind of weird.

I was focusing on strength training because that's my sport, why would I bother coming in here and talking about running marathons? I don't do that.  Do I know how to train to do one? Yea but fuck that noise.

I just don't get why you are so latched to the idea that you should "train balance."  Maybe if you're post rehab with knee replacements and 65 years old but if you're athletic at all, all you need is to barbell train lol. Here's a good article by Jim Steel check it out might learn ya somefin



http://startingstrength.com/articles/truth_steel.pdf


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523218 - 08/08/16 09:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just provided a link showing that a true plyometric program is vastly different than a weight lifting program.  Weight lifting is weight lifting and plyometrics are plyometrics.

Are you trying to worm your way out of this one by claiming a technicality on the "plyometric aspects of weightlifting"?  GTFO :lol:

I'm the one that brought it up and now you are trying to include it with all your original assertions

Starting strength is a joke.  Won't even bother.  There is much more up to date philosophies and methods and programs in regards to strength (which is an important domain of fitness no one should neglect)

I'm not focused on balance.  Your reading comprehension needs work.

I'm focused on training all 10 domains of fitness.    And balance is included in that

You started telling another member it was a waste of time...

Which is where this all started.  I call BS on your narrow minded view of fitness. 


I bring up the shoes because your first thread turned comical with your obsession over them :lol:  It was just a ribbing more than anything.  I don't personally have anything against lifting shoes and think they are a good tool


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Edited by Masked (08/08/16 09:11 PM)


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523254 - 08/08/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No, weightlifting is a plyometric movement because it trains the stretch shortening cycle, I'm not wiggling out of anything it sounds like you didn't know wl is plyometric.  Why do you think SS is a joke?  I know many beginners who used it and it works great and I have great respect for Rippetoe and a lot of the contributing coaches.(Steele, Wendler, etc)  The SS program is fine too, I don't know what you are talking about, it works for people so why is that a joke?


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523260 - 08/08/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I bet you disagree with me then when I say I believe strength is the most important thing to train above all other aspects of fitness :shrug:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23524186 - 08/09/16 07:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

why do you think SS is a joke




Because...

1. It's just a reinvented version of older programs. Like "the strongest shall survive" by Bill Starr

2. Mark ripptoe himself is a joke.  He thinks he can teach the Power Clean with his own “jump and shrug” made-up technique, a technique that is incorrect and futile to building proper form for impressive weight in the clean



Quote:

i have a lot of respect for Mark ripptoe




Of course you do.  It's called confirmation bias



It's a program built on progressive overload.  So of course it works.  It's an okay program for building basic strength and I'm not denying that.  But as stated a million times before, there is more to fitness than how much you can squat



Quote:


I bet you disagree with me then when I say I believe strength is the most important thing to train above all other aspects of fitness






Ranking the 10 domains of fitness in order of importance is a matter of preference, opinion and goals


We ALL know where your bias lays


For myself, I think a foundation of strength is definitely up there.  So I think it's definitely an important aspect.  A prime example is how well all the Olympic and power lifters are doing when switching their sights on crossfit.  They are beyond humbled for the first few years, but after they begin training for all the functional movements and intensity and broad time and rep domains that is crossfit, they begin to dominate.  Mat Fraser is a prime example.

So yes, a strength foundation is important


To be the best physical version of yourself you can be, all 10 domains of fitness should be important tho :shrug:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23524561 - 08/09/16 10:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Not all at once they shouldn't at least if you ever want to reach anywhere near your genetic potential strength wise.  That's why I have spent the last few years mostly strength training.  If you know much about VO2 max you know as great as your VO2 max gets, it disappears so rapidly once you stop training(halved in 2 weeks I think actually.)  Not strength though,  that's why it's important, get strong as hell early and have it for life. 

It's fine to be a jack of all trades but you never master one :shrug:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23524607 - 08/09/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you have it for life




Uh no you don't.  Strength can and does decrease when not stimulating the muscles properly. 

But I agree that strength depletes slowly compared to V02.  Much more slowly. 


I'd rather be a jack of all trades myself.  And this is where we go full circle and say, everyone has differing opinions and goals on this.  I don't believe mastering gymnastics, or mastering strength, while neglecting other areas of fitness, makes you as fit as you genetically can be


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