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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521598 - 08/08/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
That doesn't even say anything about training balance anywhere.




Olympian gymnasts don't demonstrate balance?

:facepalm:


You are comical at this point :lol:


You have lost all credibility


Your last "data" you linked had nothing to do with this conversation

"CONCLUSIONS: The current study did not demonstrate any advantage in utilizing the BOSU Balance Trainer. Therefore, fitness trainers should be advised that each of the aforementioned lifts can be performed while standing on stable ground without losing the potential core muscle training benefits."

So because they performed on a bosu ball well with the core lifts they train regularly, this now means to you that "squatting and strength is all you need"?


Tell that to the Olympian gymnasts


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23521602 - 08/08/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So, how are they training balance then because it's not in what you posted.


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521607 - 08/08/16 10:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
So, how are they training balance then because it's not in what you posted.





Sure it is.  Their entire program is laid out how they train for balance, for strength, for endurance and so on

Plyometric exercises being a big one


Are you purposefully being this obtuse?

Here is another.  Specifically, a strength group vs a balance training group.  Guess who performed better in balance?

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas_Horstmann/publication/11924891_Gain_in_Strength_and_Muscular_Balance_After_Balance_Training/links/02bfe50ced02babeef000000.pdf


Like I said, I could dig up tons of more examples how strength training is only one side of fitness.  But you are a waste of time.  Clearly.


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Edited by Masked (08/08/16 10:54 AM)


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23521627 - 08/08/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Time for you to answer my questions...

1. How tall are you at 215lbs?

2. For a guy that trains all strength, why do I press and bench and clean as much as you? (A guy much bigger than me).  Granted, you squat and deadlift much more, but you are also bigger and it's also abundantly clear that you train squats and deadlifts more than anything else

3. How fast can you run a mile?

4. Can you do hand stand presses, walks and holds?  What about hand stand push-ups?  How many?

5. How would you train for a marathon?  Squatting?  :grin:


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23522951 - 08/08/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

5'8, 215lbs, both shoulders are ruined from damage and dislocations in my youth, Mile run time? Fuck if I know these days I haven't ran a mile in a long time.  Last mile and a half was 13:08 though for some charity run, fastest mile ever was 6:08 while I was 175lbs at at 315lb back squat, my fastest 1.5 mile was 10:30.  That aint happenin now though.

How would I train for a marathon?  Write a year long program for it, I have my CSCS and bachelor's in ex sci, multiple years d1 coaching time too so I've been around.  I'm not pulling random shit off the web with any of this, it's all things I've worked with in school, in the weight room with teams, or my own conclusions.  Plyometrics and weight training train balance, but you're not directly saying "ok guys we're gonna stand on this plank and try to balance to get better at balance."

That's what I have been saying this entire time, if you are going anywhere and training your balance, you are wasting your time.  Balance is a function of strength, weak people can't right themselves and fall over, strong people don't.  To get better at walking on a tight rope only walking on a tight rope will make you better, not pendulums or bosu ball squats. 


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23522987 - 08/08/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That journal data they are testing people either using a rolling board, mini trampoline and large rubber ball and the strength training people were doing leg presses and leg curls.  Yea I would assume people that are standing on one leg or on a trampoline over 6 weeks will score better at balance than people doing leg curls no shit, but what about trainees back squatting heavy? 

In all of my years in multiple colleges we never once trained balance because if you are young and athletic, barbell movements is all you need to "train balance." 


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523009 - 08/08/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:  the exercise I described as a pendulum, will build muscle. Especially with weight.

The movement is parallel to many other movements, my balance is tested in the exact same manner while working on a ladder 20ft in the air with both hands fully extended at any angle manipulating tools, or loading up freight.

One could make the same argument about doing scales on an instrument, that you're better off just drilling repertoire, experience will show otherwise.


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523025 - 08/08/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


To get better at walking on a tight rope only walking on a tight rope will make you better






Exactly.  I love how you are trying to bring plyometrics into the equation with your strength talk, after I'm the one who brought it up, with, "that's what I've been saying all along".  Bitch please.  You can stop your back tracking any time now.  It can be proven multiple different ways with multiple different examples....strength is only ONE aspect of fitness and to be a well rounded athlete(assuming you are training for peak performance and fitness), you need to train all domains of fitness.  That's what IVE been saying all along.  But you are being obscenely deluded and obtuse.

If people aren't training strength and power, I'd be calling them out.  Maybe even more so.  Very essential domains of fitness.  But you can benefit from training so many more domains as well.  Which is what I've been saying.

Besides, in regards to the one study I posted, explain to me how the balance training group had better results strength wise vs the strength group?


How old are you?  Lol you a vet of fitness at 25-30?  Please

And if you are much older than that, this will all make sense.  Your knowledge is archaic and outdated.  Your generation is trying to play catch up with all the new knowledge and sports training of today

This isn't a pissing match so I'm not going to get into my history of a life of injuries and physical work and fitness.  But just know, you gave me a lot of "fluff" when I asked you straight forward questions

1. You are 5'8. 215. Thanks. 

2.  I asked why a guy smaller, who doesn't train solely strength, has many comparable lifts...your shoulders are damaged.  Thanks. Which is why you favour squats.  Makes sense. 

3. Mile time.  You don't run anymore.  You squat.  Last time you remember 13 min. Thanks.  I don't care what it was once upon a time ago.  My point was to demonstrate you don't even run.  You train strength

4.  You didn't answer 4 because you probably can't understand why people would try to become proficient in such skills and physical feats.  This is because you train a small subsection of "fitness" as a whole.

5. You would write a year long program to prepare for a marathon.  Then gave me your resume. That's cool and all but not what I asked for.  What would your year long  program focus on?


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523053 - 08/08/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean? I said weightlifting from post 1, weightlifting is plyometric.


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523094 - 08/08/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
What do you mean? I said weightlifting from post 1, weightlifting is plyometric.





I realize now more than ever you must mean to be deluded



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa82.htm

"Traditional weight training develops strength, but is not optimal at delivering the speed and power that excellence in most sports or physical activities demands"


Strength training with weights, which is what you have asserted all along as the be all end all, is not the same as a proper plyometrics program


I'm confident at this point that anyone with half a mind will be able to sift through this a realize that this debate looks ridiculous on your part.  And if I continue, ridiculous on my part.  It's just a circular discussion.  Like I said from one of my earliest replies to you...you are a lost cause

I've provided more than enough reasonable data, logic and input. 


I'm out



...don't forget your oly shoes people :douchewink:


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523191 - 08/08/16 08:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You just claim I back pedaled on plyometrics though... weightlifting IS plyometric.  Anything that trains the stretch shortening cycle is plyometric whether it's snatching or doing walk off box jumps.  What is your point?  I came in here talking about just strength but that's not all I know.  And again with the weightlifting shoes.  Here's a question, why are all the weightlifters down in Rio using a weightlifting shoe?  Why are you against using one anyway, kind of weird.

I was focusing on strength training because that's my sport, why would I bother coming in here and talking about running marathons? I don't do that.  Do I know how to train to do one? Yea but fuck that noise.

I just don't get why you are so latched to the idea that you should "train balance."  Maybe if you're post rehab with knee replacements and 65 years old but if you're athletic at all, all you need is to barbell train lol. Here's a good article by Jim Steel check it out might learn ya somefin



http://startingstrength.com/articles/truth_steel.pdf


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523218 - 08/08/16 09:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just provided a link showing that a true plyometric program is vastly different than a weight lifting program.  Weight lifting is weight lifting and plyometrics are plyometrics.

Are you trying to worm your way out of this one by claiming a technicality on the "plyometric aspects of weightlifting"?  GTFO :lol:

I'm the one that brought it up and now you are trying to include it with all your original assertions

Starting strength is a joke.  Won't even bother.  There is much more up to date philosophies and methods and programs in regards to strength (which is an important domain of fitness no one should neglect)

I'm not focused on balance.  Your reading comprehension needs work.

I'm focused on training all 10 domains of fitness.    And balance is included in that

You started telling another member it was a waste of time...

Which is where this all started.  I call BS on your narrow minded view of fitness. 


I bring up the shoes because your first thread turned comical with your obsession over them :lol:  It was just a ribbing more than anything.  I don't personally have anything against lifting shoes and think they are a good tool


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Edited by Masked (08/08/16 09:11 PM)


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23523254 - 08/08/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No, weightlifting is a plyometric movement because it trains the stretch shortening cycle, I'm not wiggling out of anything it sounds like you didn't know wl is plyometric.  Why do you think SS is a joke?  I know many beginners who used it and it works great and I have great respect for Rippetoe and a lot of the contributing coaches.(Steele, Wendler, etc)  The SS program is fine too, I don't know what you are talking about, it works for people so why is that a joke?


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23523260 - 08/08/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I bet you disagree with me then when I say I believe strength is the most important thing to train above all other aspects of fitness :shrug:


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23524186 - 08/09/16 07:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

why do you think SS is a joke




Because...

1. It's just a reinvented version of older programs. Like "the strongest shall survive" by Bill Starr

2. Mark ripptoe himself is a joke.  He thinks he can teach the Power Clean with his own “jump and shrug” made-up technique, a technique that is incorrect and futile to building proper form for impressive weight in the clean



Quote:

i have a lot of respect for Mark ripptoe




Of course you do.  It's called confirmation bias



It's a program built on progressive overload.  So of course it works.  It's an okay program for building basic strength and I'm not denying that.  But as stated a million times before, there is more to fitness than how much you can squat



Quote:


I bet you disagree with me then when I say I believe strength is the most important thing to train above all other aspects of fitness






Ranking the 10 domains of fitness in order of importance is a matter of preference, opinion and goals


We ALL know where your bias lays


For myself, I think a foundation of strength is definitely up there.  So I think it's definitely an important aspect.  A prime example is how well all the Olympic and power lifters are doing when switching their sights on crossfit.  They are beyond humbled for the first few years, but after they begin training for all the functional movements and intensity and broad time and rep domains that is crossfit, they begin to dominate.  Mat Fraser is a prime example.

So yes, a strength foundation is important


To be the best physical version of yourself you can be, all 10 domains of fitness should be important tho :shrug:


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: Masked]
    #23524561 - 08/09/16 10:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Not all at once they shouldn't at least if you ever want to reach anywhere near your genetic potential strength wise.  That's why I have spent the last few years mostly strength training.  If you know much about VO2 max you know as great as your VO2 max gets, it disappears so rapidly once you stop training(halved in 2 weeks I think actually.)  Not strength though,  that's why it's important, get strong as hell early and have it for life. 

It's fine to be a jack of all trades but you never master one :shrug:


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Re: Fitness errors (stress, calories, form, intensity) [Re: PreparationH]
    #23524607 - 08/09/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you have it for life




Uh no you don't.  Strength can and does decrease when not stimulating the muscles properly. 

But I agree that strength depletes slowly compared to V02.  Much more slowly. 


I'd rather be a jack of all trades myself.  And this is where we go full circle and say, everyone has differing opinions and goals on this.  I don't believe mastering gymnastics, or mastering strength, while neglecting other areas of fitness, makes you as fit as you genetically can be


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