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Indigo-Child
Stranger

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub....
#23469697 - 07/23/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So I've been growing casings for over a decade and finally decided to try my hand at a mono and the damn thing got contaminated. I deserved it. I totally half-assed it. Two quarts spawn, blue tub that I couldn't see through, kept taking it out of the garbage bag/opening the lid to peek in, that kind of thing.
I'm giving it another shot with a proper tub and spawn ratio (actually the 2qt would have probably worked fine if I wasn't so damn impatient, the things don't really like to grow right after you open the lid once do they?), but I have an issue. I don't have another small brick of coir, I only have half a brick (369g) with some pieces left that I chipped off a block years ago for casings (99g). I understand a brick of coir is about 650g and my total is 468g, or 72% of a full block. I'm trying to figure out how much water to add if one usually adds 4qt to one brick coir + 2qt verm. Obviously it would be better if everything was in quarts but I have no clue how many quarts 650g coir breaks out to.
In my experience with casings/bulk sub, you have some leeway with moisture, but the fact my last tub got contaminated and that this a new method for me makes me want to seek experienced help. Anyone wanna throw me a rough estimate of where to begin water-wise?
Also, and maybe a bit off topic. Verm isn't easily found locally around my way (last time I checked anyway...) and so I have to order it which makes it a semi precious material for me. Few years back, I found a bag locally that is some of the finest stuff you will ever see. It's like gold dust (actually more of a grey/brownish color). I use it only for conditioning soil for my plants as the high surface area makes it dry out absurdly fast and therefore kind of useless for casings. Would this stuff be OK in the tub? Or am I better off not experimenting given the circumstances?
Would appreciate any help.
T.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: Indigo-Child]
#23470049 - 07/23/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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sounds like you're reading really old info, checkout frankhorrigan's how I do my shit list and spitballjedi's the basic, trash bags for monos are old school.
1brick coir = 650g like you said it takes 4qt's water, 72% of 4qts = 2,9qts. add half a qt of water for every qt of verm you add.
and contams in monos with coir+verm as sub is 99% sure dirty spawn. checkout updated grain prep teks for your specific grain, PC for at least 90-120mins @15 psi, use agar if you can or as few drops of spore water as possible. and dont fuck things up with incubators or heat pads, not sure what you've been reading up on but it sounds like its got heat pads in them no offence!
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Indigo-Child
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Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: spacechildo]
#23470663 - 07/23/16 09:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh I've read Frank's bulk sub prep. I follow this when I do my bulk for casings. I have one of those little greenhouses you see at Wal-Mart which are perfect for large numbers of casings. I use large sized spawn bags, that's as big a pot as I have and won't be enough to fill a decent sized tub. I really like the idea of being able to throw everything in a bucket with some boiling water in order to "pasteurize" it. The lack of need of a thermometer is also extremely appealing to me. With that said, spitballs bucket tek post was enlightening. Thanks for that. I' don't think I've heard of too many failures with said tek, glad to see I'm not alone.
I understand quite well that we use the term "pasteurization" quite loosely when talking about this method. I'm still willing to give it another shot. Maybe I'm in denial, but I don't think the damn thing would have had any issues (or at least not until after the first or second flushes) if I could have kept from opening it. I opened it on day 10 at which point the top (a solid 1" deep layer of only sub, no spawn) was maybe 75% done, five days later it was maybe 85%, four days after that, trich. It could have been cotaminants that slowed the ass end of it down, but it smelled clean (if that's anything to go on), and there certainly wasn't any trich myc visible the first and second time I opened it (a bold claim, but the stuff is rather distinctive compared to the PC rhizomorphs popping through). It really seemed that opening the lid slowed the living shit out of colonization. I'm actually quite sure that it did and I don't find that even a little surprising all things considered.
"Dirty spawn", now there's a term I've never heard before. I can't speak to that. I've some reading to do on that subject. I will absolutely check it out.
In the mean time, some clarification...so if I had a full brick my mono would be 1 brick + 2qts verm + 5qts water? In other words, one more quart than the damien tek states? That does make things simpler for sure and the substrate did seem a little on the dry side, but I would never have guessed by that much. I will absolutely take your word for it though.
And doesn't one need a trashbag to limit gas exchange? The tubs I have aren't exactly air tight and, if nothing else, it certainly makes me feel better letting the tub incubate in something relatively clean that also limits air exchange, rather than exposed to the gusty filthy room air.
I do pc for an hour and a half (only just though...) and I do use isolate wedges (sometimes isolate LC). The few jars I lose (maybe 1 in 20) are always to trich and it ALWAYS starts on the top of my grains. I've often wondered if spores somehow are making it through the double layer tyvek (no metal disk, I tape over about 75-85% of the exposed tyvek). If anyone sees something there that I'm doing wrong or needs updating, PLEASE let me know. I'd be VERY appreciative.
Worth mentioning. I had some water damage a few years back and since then I seem to have an abnormal amount of trich in my house (compared to previous years and comparing open air plates at friends houses, I REALLY don't think it's in my head) so I tend to work outside on still days if I need to work in open air with something that won't fit in my glovebox. I did so with this tub. Am I wrong in thinking I'll have less problems with contaminants working outside rather than in? If nothing else, it certainly cooled quicker than it would have inside, I could see this causing issues.
No, no incubators or heating pads (is this really a thing?). I never noticed any difference when incubating my jars with heat so I stopped that shortly after starting the hobby.
Sorry for posting just a shit ton of info, but I thought this would be a simple matter of getting the moisture right. Instead you got me questioning everything now. 
Thanks!
T.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: Indigo-Child]
#23470696 - 07/23/16 09:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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its your grain spawn, when you say stuff like the monotub contamed because you openened the lid during colonization thats just a bad excuse. it happens to most people here, bacteria and whispy molds can be hard to spot at first, especially tangled into the cube myc.
start posting pics of your grain jars and plates before using them.
and checkout franks monotub teks, no trash bags, and we use SAB over gloveboxes. your basically 10 yrs behind 
if you're unsure you can squeeze your coir before using it as substrate, but damions tek is pretty dry IMO, yeah.
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CosmoKramer
The Assman

Registered: 06/22/16
Posts: 555
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: spacechildo]
#23470978 - 07/23/16 11:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your grain prep and inoculation/spawning need some adjustments. Follow up on what spacechildo recommended.
-------------------- "Get yourself some vitamin C with rose hips and bioflavonoids."
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Indigo-Child
Stranger

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: CosmoKramer]
#23471210 - 07/24/16 01:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol, alright guys I'll get reading....
I'll start posting pics of jars in the future. I'm confident my plates/isolates are clean. I work with agar all day and have done so for the past two years. I've taken more classes that begin with quick tutorials on sterile technique than I care to remember. All of that and enough Kanamycin to account for any sloppiness such levels of hubris inflict upon my work . Still, I'll pop some samples under the scope and make sure that they are clean.
So what should I do with the 8qts of spawn I have ready? Go back to casings with proper pasteurization? Is it a safe bet that all future attempts will result in contamination until I get my shit together? I'm willing to give it another go (the stuff isn't exactly precious to me), or should I simply not bother?
Actually, I do use an SAB, not a glove box (clear tub with tyvek sleeves attached to short PVC connectors), if that's worth anything. The terms were somewhat interchangeable about a decade back. Can we knock that back to 8 yards behind? 
Thanks for the help!
T.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: Indigo-Child]
#23471549 - 07/24/16 07:31 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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GB means gloves are attached to the box, SAB the gloves are simply on your hands. If your spawn is clean you can do whatever you want with it, spawn to coir it wont contam. since you got contams "from peeking into the tub" your spawn wasn't clean, sorry. I'd still try and spawn more if you got more jars, what else can you use 8qts of colonized grains for?
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Indigo-Child
Stranger

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: spacechildo]
#23472609 - 07/24/16 03:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh, I'm not doubting you at all at this point, I'm just trying to figure out why.
Going through my notes I see that the last batch of grains were sterilized for about 80mins. Actually, most of my jars are sterilized about that long. Issue?
My grain prep is on par with everything I've read in the past 12hrs and about a dozen random samples from 2 different dishes showed nothing that is obviously not basidiomycota mycellium. No obvious conidium/phialide/fruiting bodies/things that you wouldn't expect to see (doesn't mean they aren't there I suppose). Certainly no living bacteria (Kanamycin is no joke).
I am going to give it another shot, because, exactly, what else am I going to use em for. There is certainly room for improvement from the last attempt (to say the least). I noted that the my bucket cooled down in under two hours and the water was poured "just before boil" (I live at an elevation on top of that), so I don't see how it could have keep everything at 140-150 for an hour. I'm gonna give it a shot bringing the water 170-180 and using a cooler wrapped in a sleeping bag for the mixing/pasteurizing, monitoring the temp throughout. See if I can't keep it near 150 the majority of the time. We'll see what happens.
I'll update if it works. I really do appreciate all your help. I would've been looking for a fix in the wrong area if you hadn't chimed in. Thanks again.
T.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Getting the moisture content right in my mono sub.... [Re: Indigo-Child]
#23472658 - 07/24/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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its coir, how you prep it doesnt really matter.
even tho you think you got your sterile tech on point you should still post pics of your plates and grain spawn.
there's simply no way healthy colonized grains spawned to coir+verm is gonna contaminate because you peeked under the lid, you spawn it in open air and mix in tons of contams anyway. in a properly pasteurized substrate (or coir prepped any way) and on colonized grains there's simply no food available for the mold spores to germinate and live on.
its your spawn, I promise.
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