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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #23464872 - 07/22/16 04:34 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

If you spend any time around a house cat you can easily spot the little kitty ego.  They get noticeably embarrassed when they trip up ungracefully.  They are proud creatures.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #23464895 - 07/22/16 05:03 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
If you spend any time around a house cat you can easily spot the little kitty ego.  They get noticeably embarrassed when they trip up ungracefully.  They are proud creatures.






absolutely.


chipmunks/squirrels have noticeable ego, bears, raccoons, and so on


Yeah doesn't have a rebuttal and chooses to post shallow photos/videos


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: demiu5]
    #23464942 - 07/22/16 06:09 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

there is this confusion that has come from the psychophysical Eastern philosophical belief systems that makes out the 'ego' is wrong, and there is a possibility to get rid of it. But yet again this is dualistic thinking which conceptualizes the permananence of one part of a whole dynamic, eg:

ego/egolessness or termed selfish/selflessness where it is presumed you can become the latter part of the dynamic all-the-time.
This is the promise these gurus hold out, whilst making out they are without ego. And what this does is keep the believers in this in a state of ongoing dissatisfaction with their natural state which is always dynamic, and never one-sided! This manufactured dissatisfaction is what keeps these charlatans businesses ticking over, because people give them money for books and talks, hoping hoping 'someday' they will reac that goal convincingly promised them by their chosen saviour. Just round the next corner, then the next. And of course there will also be placebo affects and delusions where followers will feel superior to those who they judge are 'all ego' whilst they are, so the believe, egoless, or partway there.

This is not to say that extreme states of ego are good! Extreme states are the heroic ego which is part of the warrior militarized culture we are all oppressed under. This is the sense of ego which resists feeling, and a sense of communion with nature. A great book which goes into this is:
Quote:

From a Broken Web, by Catherine Keller:

'We belong to the culture of these conquerors, whose activities do not signify the perogative or even the priomordial choice of any generic "male", but of a set of migrants who emerged victorious...The hero-warrior lives a transcendence without immanence, a separative onness based on opposition to the other...In contrast to the soluble self, which dissolves into relation, the separative self makes itself the absolute in that it absolves itself from relation...
The in~flowing other must feel to a defensive ego like an aggressive intrusion, a threat to its self-containment. So it will re-double its fortifications and can justify its own aggression as defense...
The Cartesian subject, as "thinking thing" that walls itself into a formal self-identity to which it always transcendtally returns represents perhaps the most sophisticated product of disconnection




So it is not having an ego which is the problem but having too much ego!

Edited by zzripz (07/22/16 06:11 AM)

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: zzripz]
    #23465549 - 07/22/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Lol I don't really want to continue this debate but you may be on to something with Tolle, I don't like the fact that he charges people to be with him. Other teachers do not do this. Mooji does satsangs for free. If you watch his videos on YouTube,  nobody leaves unchanged or needing more. They usually end up bowing to his feet and crying and laughing with relief.

This sometimes happens in churches too but watching that always seemed super phony to me. Perhaps they are the same thing


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: EternalCowabunga] * 1
    #23465616 - 07/22/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Ponder this and the implications of spiritual or our non physical existence, consciousness and unconsciousness.



What do you think controls us?  The little light strips that represent our conscious existence, that are interrupted every 24 hours for 8 hours, or the blackness of the unknown, unconscious existence?  With every night of sleep the conscious continuity is broken, but the unconscious night of sleep is not known to be separate from that body of unknown below it.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?

Edited by ChristopherABrown (07/22/16 10:55 AM)

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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: zzripz]
    #23465820 - 07/22/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
there is this confusion that has come from the psychophysical Eastern philosophical belief systems that makes out the 'ego' is wrong, and there is a possibility to get rid of it. But yet again this is dualistic thinking which conceptualizes the permananence of one part of a whole dynamic, eg:

ego/egolessness or termed selfish/selflessness where it is presumed you can become the latter part of the dynamic all-the-time.
This is the promise these gurus hold out, whilst making out they are without ego. And what this does is keep the believers in this in a state of ongoing dissatisfaction with their natural state which is always dynamic, and never one-sided! This manufactured dissatisfaction is what keeps these charlatans businesses ticking over, because people give them money for books and talks, hoping hoping 'someday' they will reac that goal convincingly promised them by their chosen saviour. Just round the next corner, then the next. And of course there will also be placebo affects and delusions where followers will feel superior to those who they judge are 'all ego' whilst they are, so the believe, egoless, or partway there.

This is not to say that extreme states of ego are good! Extreme states are the heroic ego which is part of the warrior militarized culture we are all oppressed under. This is the sense of ego which resists feeling, and a sense of communion with nature. A great book which goes into this is:
Quote:

From a Broken Web, by Catherine Keller:

'We belong to the culture of these conquerors, whose activities do not signify the perogative or even the priomordial choice of any generic "male", but of a set of migrants who emerged victorious...The hero-warrior lives a transcendence without immanence, a separative onness based on opposition to the other...In contrast to the soluble self, which dissolves into relation, the separative self makes itself the absolute in that it absolves itself from relation...
The in~flowing other must feel to a defensive ego like an aggressive intrusion, a threat to its self-containment. So it will re-double its fortifications and can justify its own aggression as defense...
The Cartesian subject, as "thinking thing" that walls itself into a formal self-identity to which it always transcendtally returns represents perhaps the most sophisticated product of disconnection




So it is not having an ego which is the problem but having too much ego!




Hey Zz,

i understand and appreciate your view a little more now -- although, Tolle I have had pretty good feelings from. . . that's just one perspective, though.

Although - to go into the part of agreement. . . it's like - there's genuine and less-than-genuine. . .

and of the latter group. . . i honestly give a lot of the benefit of doubt, - what i mean is. . .  more often than not - i see mistakes as sort of honest mistakes. . .  not so much someone out to profit on others - rather those who haven't really gotten there, and so forth...

earlier i was thinking of saying, to your post -- it's really quite possible for a 'teacher' ( i guess.. i use apostrophe's here , not to say that they aren't teachers at all, just. . . not quite what they say to be )

and - how to know if they are what they say to be?  well, that's a very classic question. . .

i think the answer is best to take things with a shadow of doubt, yet - explore the people one feels are good. . . . like -- intuition is so valuable, and important; and, it can always be improved on. . .

oh -- i forgot a run-on sentence......  i mean - it can be easy for a teacher to fall into the mistake of . . .

teaching? -- or , over-valuing theirselves and under-valuing the people they are talking to

-- which is basically, what i see you talking about, etc...  anyway.

Peace. :sun:


... at the same time, in those cases, i don't particularly wish to denounce or criticize them (  For all the various reasons, ... among others, because there are 'bigger fish to fry',,  - as well as, it sometimes cause friction or so forth )

not saying that that is never good; just that i pick my battles sort of , for the most part at least :sun:

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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: graceful dragon]
    #23465873 - 07/22/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

i guess b'coz there's always another level . 

One person may think they are a teacher or healer, yet have come nowhere close to eliminating schadenfreude from their heart -- i.e., not close to attaining real peace --

but since they believe so much in themselves, and strive for others; they cause pain -- 


Another person may be a little higher up -- they have eliminated all schadenfreude ( and maybe they never really had much of it )


but they are not legitimately a good teacher ( maybe they push what works for them onto others as a 'one-size-fits-all' type of thing. . . .

and that they are trying to 'push' anything onto anyone -- rather goes against their statement of saying,
'you are just fine as you are,' --
etc., --- and this is one of the things of the whole thing.  (hehe.... forgive me for using the word too much :-p )
basically it takes a lot of experimenting, haha.  and that involves a lot of learning -

and that helps one to develop humility ( eventually :smile: ) and. . .
all of that is not so compatible with thinking one is perfect. :smile:
of course it's sometimes true that 'everything is perfect' -- but, taken too far, this leads to quite a mushy brain....
mushy brain.... no brain.... hehe. :laugh: 
and that kind of thing -- it doesn't allow for positive change


and, too i know i've been writing in pretty much generalities , but anyway.  good day wished to all.


i guess - i've just seen the underside or darker side of it now; and --

the simple and the basic aspects of it. . . ( have faith in oneself, live well, 'love the world and uh, a set your fancy free' hehe ) to quote hendrix..  those simple come back with a resounding sound... of some kind. :smile: LoLoL :smile:

hehe.


i guess -- boiled down, what i mean to say is -- i agree that human life is wonderful; there's no need to

try to be something other than what we are -


in other words, to be a peaceful, loving person is where it's at - ... and what not.

:sun:

Om Namah Shivaya

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23465953 - 07/22/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Ponder this and the implications of spiritual or our non physical existence, consciousness and unconsciousness.



What do you think controls us?  The little light strips that represent our conscious existence, that are interrupted every 24 hours for 8 hours, or the blackness of the unknown, unconscious existence?  With every night of sleep the conscious continuity is broken, but the unconscious night of sleep is not known to be separate from that body of unknown below it.




The subconscious is where everything really happens -- the body of the iceberg.  If one can make one's subconscious conscious, well, there you are.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #23466095 - 07/22/16 01:44 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Yes but some can be quite dignified about it still


--------------------

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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: yeah]
    #23466276 - 07/22/16 02:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

ooh - i wrote so much and kinda felt like deleting it, but called away... Sleepwalker said it :smile:

i wonder how dolphins feel about these topics :heartpump:

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: graceful dragon]
    #23467541 - 07/22/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

If you watch this following video from 1:09:50 to 1:15:00 this is an example of pure love that emanates from a spiritual master. I thought of what someone who is very skeptical might say of this video and the only thing I could come up with is that the love shared in this video is an exmaple of homo-erotic love, which when I thought of I felt sorry for anyone who would see it that way.

This is Mooji, he's really cool. And he doesn't charge anything for his satsangs. This post is not really aimed at zzrip, just wanted to share this because I love this moment in the video. It reminded me of when I met my guru and how just looking into his eyes transformed my entire being



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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23467592 - 07/22/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

yah, dude i got some Mooji.  been there done that.  go through the Amma videos.. there is one who knew from almost birth.. it's the first one , the first one i really ever think is on the level of Buddha; like from the beginning.. she is very beautiful and always seems to show divine love.. the divine mother..      Jai Ma :heartpump:

Astral Projection - Mahadeva

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23467952 - 07/22/16 11:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I wanna be my own Guru.


--------------------

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23468343 - 07/23/16 05:39 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Hi and welcome. I really like that diagram, and am not surprised. I am always exploring and sharing how life (and death, because life and death and regeneration are a dynamic) is Mystery. Not as in eg 'one day this mystery will be solved' kind of gungo ho typical enterprise of our scientific world which must 'know' every crook and cranny, but that Mystery is always mystery because the conscious mind by its very nature cannot ever know the unknown
What does this mean? the knower cannot ever know the unknown? Well it'd be a contradiction to suggest that one day a knower can know the unknown. But is this what gurus promise?
yes they do, because in this way they can con their gullible followers that there can never be hidden, unknown motives for what they do they are not conscious of lol

Quote:

Sophisticated thinkers within Buddhism were (and are) aware that unconscious elements exist in the mind. But their interest in the unconscious is cloaked in an ideology that believes that it is not only possible to become totally selfless, but once having doen so, one is totally conscious and no longer moved by unconscious factors. If there were even the possibility that a totally realized being had an unconscious, how could anyone (including the realized one) be certain that all motives and actions were pure and selfless? (-The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power, Joel Kramer & Dianna Alstad, pages 101-102)




So what role do psychedelic play regarding the experience of become more aware of what previously was unconscious? I reckon they are the fruit per excellence for inspiring this! My very first LSD trip when I was 15, and hadn't read ANYthing had me seeing very clearly peoples body language. It was like suddenly become aware of what were behind the social masks people put on, even to themselves--I was at a party observing people who may have been stoned, but not tripping--. These experiences and others throughout my 15th year on this Earth woke me up to how ALIVE nature and matter really is, and my connection with nature.

These trips have inspired a life long journey of endless exploring and asking questions, and all of this is never linear, because knowing flows spirally into unknowing and so on and so forth. I realize that the 'normal' reality most of us will demand is the real is really being contrived by forces on our case as soon as we can speak. We are enforced into the 'education' system and this is where the indoctrination of the materialist culture really is pushed on, as well as their mass media etc, and it was/and still is with organized religious indoctrination. THIS mind-control we are made to be un-conscious of!

Edited by zzripz (07/23/16 05:42 AM)

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Offlineanthiawe
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: zzripz]
    #23468355 - 07/23/16 05:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I think its all false. You cant have spirituality and materialism functioning in the same society. the height of spirituality is met with a decrease in material wants and desires. We are seeing forms of spirituality that dont challenge consumerism. abrahmic religions are attcked for their beleifs as they offer potential for a challenge to consumerism. so if you think you're more spiritual than the next guy you'd better take a hard look at your material possessions and ask do i own them or do they own me?


--------------------
TEK compendium

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: anthiawe]
    #23468523 - 07/23/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

there is pleasure to be had with form when the formless aspect is known


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: anthiawe]
    #23468585 - 07/23/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

anthiawe said:
I think its all false. You cant have spirituality and materialism functioning in the same society. the height of spirituality is met with a decrease in material wants and desires. We are seeing forms of spirituality that dont challenge consumerism. abrahmic religions are attcked for their beleifs as they offer potential for a challenge to consumerism. so if you think you're more spiritual than the next guy you'd better take a hard look at your material possessions and ask do i own them or do they own me?




what did you just send that message from?

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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: anthiawe]
    #23468702 - 07/23/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Hi and welcome. I really like that diagram, and am not surprised. I am always exploring and sharing how life (and death, because life and death and regeneration are a dynamic) is Mystery. Not as in eg 'one day this mystery will be solved' kind of gungo ho typical enterprise of our scientific world which must 'know' every crook and cranny, but that Mystery is always mystery because the conscious mind by its very nature cannot ever know the unknown
What does this mean? the knower cannot ever know the unknown? Well it'd be a contradiction to suggest that one day a knower can know the unknown. But is this what gurus promise?
yes they do, because in this way they can con their gullible followers that there can never be hidden, unknown motives for what they do they are not conscious of lol

Quote:

Sophisticated thinkers within Buddhism were (and are) aware that unconscious elements exist in the mind. But their interest in the unconscious is cloaked in an ideology that believes that it is not only possible to become totally selfless, but once having doen so, one is totally conscious and no longer moved by unconscious factors. If there were even the possibility that a totally realized being had an unconscious, how could anyone (including the realized one) be certain that all motives and actions were pure and selfless? (-The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power, Joel Kramer & Dianna Alstad, pages 101-102)




So what role do psychedelic play regarding the experience of become more aware of what previously was unconscious? I reckon they are the fruit per excellence for inspiring this! My very first LSD trip when I was 15, and hadn't read ANYthing had me seeing very clearly peoples body language. It was like suddenly become aware of what were behind the social masks people put on, even to themselves--I was at a party observing people who may have been stoned, but not tripping--. These experiences and others throughout my 15th year on this Earth woke me up to how ALIVE nature and matter really is, and my connection with nature.

These trips have inspired a life long journey of endless exploring and asking questions, and all of this is never linear, because knowing flows spirally into unknowing and so on and so forth. I realize that the 'normal' reality most of us will demand is the real is really being contrived by forces on our case as soon as we can speak. We are enforced into the 'education' system and this is where the indoctrination of the materialist culture really is pushed on, as well as their mass media etc, and it was/and still is with organized religious indoctrination. THIS mind-control we are made to be un-conscious of!




Exactly, all of that is accurate, particularly the indoctrinations.  I think most psychedelics provide too much vision into the unconscious whereupon we are overwhelmed then distracted.  We need brief glimpses that are relevant to our material needs and creating unity effective to meeting them.

Something that I've heard of but recently found is our intellectual/emotional archetypes which appear to be a thin but very widely influential aspect of our individual unconscious that is also shared.  By being sensitive and responsive to it in groups, massive conceptual sharing can be completed very quickly.

There is a phenomena which I've diagrammed in the next set of graphics that is called a hypnopompic event.  Thes links are to .pdf's of those.  http://algoxy.com/law/treasonresist/graphicunconscious/onedayofyourlife-S2.pdf

http://algoxy.com/law/treasonresist/graphicunconscious/onedayofyourlife-S3.pdf

I see hypnopompics more as a layer.  Once in it, the archetypes seem to cooperate with the conscious far more completely.  Seems a way around the "resolute barrier", an aspect brought forth on sheet 3.

The knower can only know the unknown in small pieces.  By keeping track of them a sense of the unknown or unconscious specific is gained.  The archetypes mentioned can help to verify aspects as experienced and the group keeps more and better track.  The fact of a group works against the indoctrination well.

It's very important to remain with instincts conceptually that support species continuity.  Those instincts naturally find ways to conscious appreciation.  This seems even greater when a group is involved

Quote:

anthiawe said:
I think its all false. You cant have spirituality and materialism functioning in the same society. the height of spirituality is met with a decrease in material wants and desires. We are seeing forms of spirituality that dont challenge consumerism. abrahmic religions are attcked for their beleifs as they offer potential for a challenge to consumerism. so if you think you're more spiritual than the next guy you'd better take a hard look at your material possessions and ask do i own them or do they own me?




They key therein is "wants and desires".  We NEED material.  With that, we NEED to be spiritually aligned in assuring the right material existence for continuity.

There has been an infiltration of society that has used media to create confusion between wants and needs.  Seeking to place wants over needs for profit.  One of the main tools has been to teach cognitive distortions.  One of those is "all or nothing thinking", which is where your statement, "You cant have spirituality and materialism functioning in the same society." is based.  Critical thinking cannot be effectively done with distortions, spiritual or otherwise.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23469753 - 07/23/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


There has been an infiltration of society that has used media to create confusion between wants and needs.




Yeah, here is  a strong example that is personal for me also, because as a kid i was a bit of a sugar addict. So this is how they do it: In the brain apparently are receptors that light up when we have natural sugars from fruit. Pleasure centres if you will, and this is because fruits are good for us. So what the sugar manufacturers have done is expropriate this so that you rather crave their unhealthy products. I have known people (and used to do it meself) who pile on sugar ON fruit. it makes me wanna PUKE now!! AND do without fruit altogether and but these evil sugar-saturated products that contain all other stuff including chemicals

Well they have done this formula with religion also. We need ecstasy. The real meaning of ec~stasy which has been made to seem it has a solely archaic 'shamanic' meaning and is about 'spirit flight' though it may include that, but what is usually ignored is its embodied aspect which is the sense of going beyond a static sense of ourselves. Of transcending the ego, and feeling an expansive connection with others and the natural world. So what the --who I call--toxic myth-makers do is EXPLOIT that need to mean a pining for some future immortality, and 'egolessness'. Meanwhile most if not all of these belief systems taboo psychedelics and forbid them, and even suppress them from memory which makes it EASIER to substitute their placebo which does really give the actual direct feeling, but HOOKS you to their product!
Notice how especially Christianity was so against sexual ecstasy, and how some cultures even perform genital mutilation on males and young females and women to stop them having sexual ecstasy!!

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Offlineanthiawe
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Re: Spirituality has become common knowledge [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23471636 - 07/24/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

to humanbeing: my statement stands, yes we need matieral but no materialism, by that i mean consumerism and neoliberalism/capitalism in its entirety. through hegemonic process such as media, like you state, confusion arises. i'm not say no possessions what so ever like your all or nothing assumption, i'm saying you can't be truly spiritual/godfearing if you are using materials that remove your focus from that or are produced in ways that destory societies. cell phone production and rape with extreme violence are a good example, christians preach love yet they buy (and thus consent to) these phones produced through rape (where the rare earth mines are located), muslims care about halal meat but never consider halal cell phone production, atheists talk of high technology but never the low thinking it takes to not see the labour proccesses behind the good.


--------------------
TEK compendium

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redgreenvines 6,823 30 10/13/05 10:10 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Forum Rules: Spirituality and Mysticism ShroomismM 22,785 0 10/10/05 12:57 AM
by Shroomism
* spiritual mathematics nonick 3,967 17 10/10/05 07:20 PM
by Silversoul

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