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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process
    #23466861 - 07/22/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It was something Frank Horrigan said:

Quote:

Pasteurization is not just heating the core temperature of the substrate to 140-160F for 60-90 minutes. Proper pasteurization is also rapidly cooling the substrate after the pasteurization time has elapsed.




When I read that my mind went "ding!ding!ding!".  What he said is right as rain, and I once knew it too, but somehow, incrementally, lost that understanding.  That explains why my phase 2s were not as reliable as they ought to have been.  Its because I was wont to allow the compost to follow its own biodynamic rather than controlling it with the result that thermophiles overreached and expended themselves and the nutrient base.

While coir is not as rich a substrate as manure, I am going to hazard to guess that the same principles are at work here.  That is to say that you must cool the coir rapidly or the thermophiles will overgrow and ruin your sub.  For these reasons, in my effort to scale up coir pasteurization, I wanted to see if I could control the temp nicely:

Quote:

5kg Coir Block Formula V.2

(1) 5 kg coir block
(1) cu. ft. verm (1/2 bag Vigoro fine verm)
(10) qts. gypsum
(10) gal boiling water
(14) lbs ice cubes ( (2) 7lb bag ice)



 


Process:

1) Boil 10 gallons water
2) Ladle boiled water over coir, break up coir (I use a 1/2 gallon pyrex measuring cup and heavy duty heat resistant rubber gloves)
3) Cover and let sit for one hour
4) Mix dry verm and dry gypsum together evenly
5) After 1 hour separate coir into two halves
6) Mix in verm+gypsum
7) Mix in a bag of ice into each half (temp should go down to under 100F immediately)
8) After ice has melted add more verm if sub is too wet.





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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466878 - 07/22/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I've just been experimenting with this.  Trying to work up a reliable, easy process for preparing CVG substrate from 5kg coir bricks.

Comments and suggestions most welcome!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466889 - 07/22/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

that's an interesting way to do it, cool tek!
was wondering if you've seen any improvement over rapid cooling the sub to just regular cooling, any noticeable effects?


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466926 - 07/22/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: MMG]
    #23466963 - 07/22/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MMG said:
that's an interesting way to do it, cool tek!
was wondering if you've seen any improvement over rapid cooling the sub to just regular cooling, any noticeable effects?




Thanks!  I'm new to working with Coir.  I've used manure extensively.  Started with dried cow patties and chopped straw water pasteurized.  Early on, we'd pasteurize and immediately dump the bag on the table so that it would cool quick and we could get on to spawning quickly.  This gave good results, and is the proper way to do it.  However, as I scaled up it was no longer efficient to dump the bag of sub out immediately, so bags would sit with their contents in them to cool over night.  Wrong!

There were enough other uncertain parameters that I did not see the way I was cooling the sub as a source of contamination/low yield.  Depending on a lot of factors my pasteurizations were hit and miss.  Basically, you want the pathogens to die, and the thermophiles to 'hold the space' without overgrowing.  If you look at how dairies pasteurize milk you'll note that as much effort goes into cooling the milk (and keeping it cool) as does heating it up.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23466972 - 07/22/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!



:whathesaid:

Yeah, just heat that shit up to kill anything present in it/break it down a little. CVG usually takes months to contaminate on its own, hydrated at feild capacity. Even after it contaminates you could still PC and use it, I have done it. I do not recommend doing this though. Use your materials asap after prepping.

You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.

:chief:


Edited by TheChief (07/22/16 06:13 PM)


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466974 - 07/22/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!




No, it certainly does have microbes.  It is not sterile at all.  It needs a pasteurization (such as Bucket Tek).  Putting it in a PC seems like a very laborious and inefficient way of going about things!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466981 - 07/22/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Hydrate, put in covered turkey pan, cook at 275-300F for 60-90 min. You can also half ass pasturize anything this way if you know what your doing. But I'm certain CVG or coir just needs to be heat treated.


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"Additionally I did one Armageddon jar with all of the types together."


Edited by TheChief (07/22/16 06:23 PM)


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: TheChief]
    #23466987 - 07/22/16 06:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.




I've tried this.  Highly NOT recommended!  When I start experimenting with a process I try to begin with the easiest least work/expense approach.  Spawning to pre-hydrated coir straight out of the bag was the first experiment - really crappy results.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23466998 - 07/22/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!




No, it certainly does have microbes.  It is not sterile at all.  It needs a pasteurization (such as Bucket Tek).  Putting it in a PC seems like a very laborious and inefficient way of going about things!




bucket tek is not proper pasteurization.
try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467002 - 07/22/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.




I've tried this.  Highly NOT recommended!  When I start experimenting with a process I try to begin with the easiest least work/expense approach.  Spawning to pre-hydrated coir straight out of the bag was the first experiment - really crappy results.




results shouldnt be that bad, coir's just a water reservoir, the zest is in the grains :tongue2:


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467021 - 07/22/16 06:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

At 2.5 hours the ice had nearly completely melted and the temp is under 70F.  Moisture content is at the high end of field capacity (which seems right for use in a 'set and forget' monotub).

Only problem is that the way I mixed the gypsum in this experiment has left me with some sizable gypsum clods - some as large as 1" in diameter.

This was meant as an experiment in substrate prep.  The gypsum clods seem like the only boo-boo.  Since it is an experiment, I don't mind tossing it, but on the other hand perhaps it could be used. 

What do you think, are the gypsum clods a deal killer?


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467022 - 07/22/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

just break them up? shouldn't be much of a problem tbh


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467044 - 07/22/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bucket tek is not proper pasteurization.
try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!




I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it.  Seems like a pasteurization method to me.

I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'.  The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker.  I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467054 - 07/22/16 06:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

results shouldnt be that bad, coir's just a water reservoir, the zest is in the grains :tongue2:




Yeah, probably.  Full-disclosure:  There were a few other problems afoot as well, so I cannot totally hold the uncooked coir responsible.  I may try to repeat the experiment under more controlled circumstances  another time.  In the meantime, my survey of people's use of coir leads me to conclude that pouring boiling water over it is the way to go - the sweet spot between effectiveness and ease.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467082 - 07/22/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It is a ton of labor doing i in bags in the PC, that's how I do it but I'm looking for something way more efficient as well.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467193 - 07/22/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

bucket tek is not proper pasteurization.
try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!




I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it.  Seems like a pasteurization method to me.

I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'.  The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker.  I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.




partial sterilization is far from pasteurization man, partial sterilization means the core temp has gotten above pasteurizing temps for 10-15mins or more.

If you think bucket tek is proper pasteurization try doing manure with it :shrug: you'll see plenty of fails because of it.

Only thing that matters with coir is you heat-treat it, break down the lignin to make cellulose more available for the myc.
insulate your bucket TEK bucket with another one with hot water in f.example.
just dont waste your time properly pasteurizing coir and monitoring temps. save that for manure/coffee/castings etc.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467195 - 07/22/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!




Are you sure about that?  I am trying to imagine a coco coir factory in Sri Lanka with equipment to process plant fiber at such high temperatures without burning it up.  I can't imagine how that would work, and especially not with large scale processing of coconut fibers.  Even if they could do it, the amount of energy required for those temps would be prohibitively expensive.  Keep in mind that some aluminum alloys will melt at 1000F, and that at 1000 F you are half way to melting gold, and over a third of the way to melting steel!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467218 - 07/22/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

maybe that's exaggerated but its way above pasteurization temps for sure!
Just try it, it works. pasteurizing coir is a waste of time, sterilize them instead if you already jarred some up.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467240 - 07/22/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

bucket tek is not proper pasteurization.
try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!




I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it.  Seems like a pasteurization method to me.

I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'.  The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker.  I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.




partial sterilization is far from pasteurization man, partial sterilization means the core temp has gotten above pasteurizing temps for 10-15mins or more.

If you think bucket tek is proper pasteurization try doing manure with it :shrug: you'll see plenty of fails because of it.

Only thing that matters with coir is you heat-treat it, break down the lignin to make cellulose more available for the myc.
insulate your bucket TEK bucket with another one with hot water in f.example.
just dont waste your time properly pasteurizing coir and monitoring temps. save that for manure/coffee/castings etc.



How do you go about prepping a 5Kg brick?


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/22/16 07:38 PM)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23467261 - 07/22/16 07:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

chip off whatever you gonna use and weigh it. ~4qt's water pr 650g coir makes ~9 litres


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467272 - 07/22/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

partial sterilization is far from pasteurization man, partial sterilization means the core temp has gotten above pasteurizing temps for 10-15mins or more.

If you think bucket tek is proper pasteurization try doing manure with it :shrug: you'll see plenty of fails because of it.

Only thing that matters with coir is you heat-treat it, break down the lignin to make cellulose more available for the myc.
insulate your bucket TEK bucket with another one with hot water in f.example.
just dont waste your time properly pasteurizing coir and monitoring temps. save that for manure/coffee/castings etc.




This gets into the semantics of the word 'sterilization':  A pasteurization is considered a 'partial sterilization' because it kills certain microbes while allowing others (thermophiles) to live.  Sterilize is fancy word for 'kill'.  In a PC the core temp of your coir might be in the pasteurization range at a 15psi/90m cook.

Hmm . . . manure has to be dried thoroughly before it can be water bath pasteurized.  When I did it the pasteurization water was drained off after it was done.  I think that draining the water off may be important for manure (it certainly is for straw), so the bucket tek might not work for that reason even though it could adequately provide pasteurization temps to the poo.  Also, the bucket tek may not be cooling the manure quickly enough, and so with the richer microbial content of the poo there is a an overbloom of thermophiles that screws it up.

Yeah, I've heard it said before that the coir only needs heating and hydrating.  That may be, but I'd like to see some real science on that.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23467275 - 07/22/16 07:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I meant to do a whole block in a run, or are you saying you would do that a bucket per tub for the whole brick?


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23467308 - 07/22/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How do you go about prepping a 5Kg brick?




Eh?  That's what this thread is about!  Read the post at the top - that's where I explain how I'm doing it.  However, keep in mind this is an experiment - a process I am just developing.  It'd be great if you give it a shot, though.  I'd like to see how it works for someone else.  This process, using 24qts of spawn, will make about 12 monotubs containing 10qts of substrate each, in other words, 12 66qt monotubs filled to about 3" depth.  That should be just under a 1:4 spawn ration, so you might want to up the amount of spawn.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467311 - 07/22/16 07:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rooster Cogburn said:
I meant to do a whole block in a run, or are you saying you would do that a bucket per tub for the whole brick?




I dont have 25 gallon buckets but just do the math :super:

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
This gets into the semantics of the word 'sterilization':  A pasteurization is considered a 'partial sterilization' because it kills certain microbes while allowing others (thermophiles) to live.  Sterilize is fancy word for 'kill'.  In a PC the core temp of your coir might be in the pasteurization range at a 15psi/90m cook.

Hmm . . . manure has to be dried thoroughly before it can be water bath pasteurized.  When I did it the pasteurization water was drained off after it was done.  I think that draining the water off may be important for manure (it certainly is for straw), so the bucket tek might not work for that reason even though it could adequately provide pasteurization temps to the poo.  Also, the bucket tek may not be cooling the manure quickly enough, and so with the richer microbial content of the poo there is a an overbloom of thermophiles that screws it up.




first, its not just semantics because "partial sterilizations" has a meaning, and its not pasteurization it means it means you went above pasteurization temps. so if you tell people you partially sterilized your manure you basically say you fucked up. you mean pasteurized.

Just try to sterilize your coir once, you'll see the difference it looks much darker.
If 15psi for 90mins meant core gets to pasteurization temps we couldn't sterilized our grains that way :shrug:

you want dry aged manure, but then you get it to field capacity before pasteurizing.
bucket tek starts at too high temps which usually means partial sterilization (the bad kind)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467327 - 07/22/16 07:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



You might need to adjust your monitor since its kind of dark, but in the gloom of the cement mixing tub on the left you'll note a whole 5kg block of coir waiting patiently to have 10gal of boiling water poured all over it!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467332 - 07/22/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

How do you go about prepping a 5Kg brick?




Eh?  That's what this thread is about!  Read the post at the top - that's where I explain how I'm doing it.  However, keep in mind this is an experiment - a process I am just developing.  It'd be great if you give it a shot, though.  I'd like to see how it works for someone else.  This process, using 24qts of spawn, will make about 12 monotubs containing 10qts of substrate each, in other words, 12 66qt monotubs filled to about 3" depth.  That should be just under a 1:4 spawn ration, so you might want to up the amount of spawn.



Oh I know that's why I am following it, I was just wondering what he does as well.
I will do this with you, I have spawn bags that will be ready by next week, the reason I am interested is I will have just enough spawn for the whole brick, 12 8 lb. bags of rye, which would roughly be 8 quarts of spawn each, which is what I usually use for 66qt mono's, I don't know if that's a higher ratio than what's usually used around here or not?


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/22/16 09:12 PM)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23467382 - 07/22/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So I am in the process of building a 55 gallon drum low pressure steamer for my sawdust bags, like gr0wers if you have ever seen his down in the gourmet forum and on youtube. I am thinking when that is done it may serve great pasteurizing large amounts of coir in bags. It my take 3 or 4 hours to get to core temp or whatever since it's coco, but you could probably do 4 5kg bricks worth of substrate, and pretty damn close to properly if not properly pasteurized. And as far as rapid cooling, you can maybe place the bags straight from the steamer to shallow tubs of ice water, that's just an initial thought about rapid cooling, I haven't read into it, but I definitely trust a whole lot of what Frank has wrote. What do you think of that idea?


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/22/16 09:01 PM)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23467648 - 07/22/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So I am in the process of building a 55 gallon drum low pressure steamer for my sawdust bags, like gr0wers if you have ever seen his down in the gourmet forum and on youtube. I am thinking when that is done it may serve great pasteurizing large amounts of coir in bags. It my take 3 or 4 hours to get to core temp or whatever since it's coco, but you could probably do 4 5kg bricks worth of substrate, and pretty damn close to properly if not properly pasteurized. What do you think of that idea?




I think it sounds great!  However, being able to pasteurize more coir than I can process at a time may have its own drawbacks, but perhaps those are categorically 'good problems' to have!  I'm doing it this way because it is cheap, quick, and dirty - and hopefully it works well.  Perhaps a cement mixer is the right compliment to the low pressure steamer?


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23467678 - 07/22/16 10:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

So I am in the process of building a 55 gallon drum low pressure steamer for my sawdust bags, like gr0wers if you have ever seen his down in the gourmet forum and on youtube. I am thinking when that is done it may serve great pasteurizing large amounts of coir in bags. It my take 3 or 4 hours to get to core temp or whatever since it's coco, but you could probably do 4 5kg bricks worth of substrate, and pretty damn close to properly if not properly pasteurized. What do you think of that idea?




I think it sounds great!  However, being able to pasteurize more coir than I can process at a time may have its own drawbacks, but perhaps those are categorically 'good problems' to have!  I'm doing it this way because it is cheap, quick, and dirty - and hopefully it works well.  Perhaps a cement mixer is the right compliment to the low pressure steamer?




Cement mixer all the way, I want one anyways for mixing sawdust pellets which is a bitch. Yeah I figure If I already have the steamer, why not take one day a month to get coir ready for that whole month, I have found that coir stays good forever sealed in filter patch bags.


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/22/16 10:05 PM)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23467684 - 07/22/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Im going try what your doing here this coming week, Im still a few parts away from getting the steamer done.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23468153 - 07/23/16 01:14 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

"gr0wers" is someone's handle here on the Shroomery?


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23468236 - 07/23/16 02:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

gr0wer, he is really good, he has a ton of write ups and awesome builds in the gourmet forum, on youtube he is Meyers Mushrooms, he has his builds and his commercial growing up there.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23468249 - 07/23/16 02:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rooster Cogburn said:
Im going try what your doing here this coming week, Im still a few parts away from getting the steamer done.




I'll check out gr0wers!  Thank you!!

I'm flattered that you'd want to try my process here.  Thanks!!  Its pretty straight forward, and I don't see why it wouldn't work.  However, that said, it is not really tested.  However, I'll be looking forward to seeing your results! 

Tomorrow morning I will go ahead and spawn what I've done. The way the gypsum is mixed in is not ideal, and I'll handle the gypsum differently next time, but I think it will be okay for now. I've got six bags of Tasmanian strain to use.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23468254 - 07/23/16 02:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I'm mainly just looking for a way to process large amounts of coco, I will admit I am weary of the ice, and may brain storm on another rapid cooling technique, but am definitely open to see what happens here with this batch of yours. I like your style man,I saw your small grow room with the mesh shelving, bad ass dude, I have a grow room too, it's full of oysters right now and probably for a while, but I am interested in starting to move cubes in there, I'm only experienced with mono tubs when it comes to the cubes.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23468257 - 07/23/16 02:33 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

As far as gypsum, this might not do shit bit it's what I do is mix gypsum up in the water before I hydrate, but that may be harder with boiling water, thats what I do when I do a normal pasteurization run.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23468259 - 07/23/16 02:37 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If 15psi for 90mins meant core gets to pasteurization temps we couldn't sterilized our grains that way




You'd sterilize grain jars just fine that way, but for spawn bags I cook for 4 hours.  I've always been under the impression that you need longer cook times the larger and denser the mass you are sterilizing.

Quote:

you want dry aged manure, but then you get it to field capacity before pasteurizing.




I always collected the cow patties dried in the fields in the very same mesh laundry bags I pasteurized in.  If possible, I'd leave the laundry bags in the sun to dry out some more before pasteurizing.  I don't see why you'd want to wet it to field capacity first - seems like a big unnecessary  step to me.  I mean, it comes out of the hot water bath perfectly moist, and then you crumble it by hand and mix with chopped straw - its great!  . . . and a ton of work.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23468265 - 07/23/16 02:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rooster Cogburn said:
As far as gypsum, this might not do shit bit it's what I do is mix gypsum up in the water before I hydrate, but that may be harder with boiling water, thats what I do when I do a normal pasteurization run.




That's just what I did, and it was a mess.  That may work on a very small scale, but when you are trying to mix quarts of gypsum into gallons of water its not so easy.  Maybe with a mixing attachment on a drill - sort of thing used for mixing tiling grout in a bucket - you could get the gypsum to dissolve better in the water. 

No, I think it will be better to mix the gypsum with the verm and mix them together into the hydrated coir.  That's what I'll do next time.  The gypsum I have is in little round pellets.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23468468 - 07/23/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

you want dry aged manure, but then you get it to field capacity before pasteurizing.




I always collected the cow patties dried in the fields in the very same mesh laundry bags I pasteurized in.  If possible, I'd leave the laundry bags in the sun to dry out some more before pasteurizing.  I don't see why you'd want to wet it to field capacity first - seems like a big unnecessary  step to me.  I mean, it comes out of the hot water bath perfectly moist, and then you crumble it by hand and mix with chopped straw - its great!  . . . and a ton of work.




yeah pillow case pasteurization is a bitch, use bags instead.
you get it to field capacity because water transfers heat better.
just checkout frankhorrigans pasteurization TEK, shows you everytyhing you need to know!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469093 - 07/23/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you get it to field capacity because water transfers heat better.




Wetting dried poo before you cook it in water is a total fool's errand!  I used dried poo+chopped straw as my substrate for a couple of years.  I know that of which I speak. Poo+straw is a great sub, but a pain in the ass to prepare.  Hydrating the poo before you cook it would only make a lot more work.  A significant part of the art of mushroom farming is materials handling.  If you add water to something you are going to make it significantly heavier to move.  A bag of dried cow chips is a cinch to put in a water bath, a bag of wet cow chips would be rather heavy.  And I believe the extra weight of the cold water would slow down the heating process, not speed it up.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23469111 - 07/23/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

you dont use bags so big you cant lift them since you want the core to get to temp.
No one uses pillowcases for pasteurizing manure anymore, why do you keep asking questions if you're just gonna do it your old skool way anyway?
I'm not asking you to change everything you're doing just try it and see what all the fuzz is about, especially if you think the old way is a PITA :thumbup:


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469358 - 07/23/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No one uses pillowcases for pasteurizing manure anymore, why do you keep asking questions if you're just gonna do it your old skool way anyway?




I've never used a pillowcase to pasteurize anything.  That's an obviously dumb way to do things.  What gave you that idea?

Spacechildo, while there is a certain pleasure in debating things with you, I have to say that I'm not getting the impression you understand the point of this post to begin with.  Go back and look at what I am doing.  You'll note that the point of it is to process relatively large amounts of coir efficiently.  When you are telling me to put the coir  in my pressure cooker, you are basically telling me, "Hey, why bother making twelve monotubs in a few hours when you can make two or three in many more hours?"  It would be great if you actually had some suggestions relevant to my goals rather than just telling me to do something else completely.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23469419 - 07/23/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What i do is put a trash bag in a cooler, put the substrate in, and add enough boiling water to hydrate it letting it set overnight. Works for most kinds of bulk substrate materials except used coffee grounds and sawdust.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23469616 - 07/23/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

No one uses pillowcases for pasteurizing manure anymore, why do you keep asking questions if you're just gonna do it your old skool way anyway?




I've never used a pillowcase to pasteurize anything.  That's an obviously dumb way to do things.  What gave you that idea?

Spacechildo, while there is a certain pleasure in debating things with you, I have to say that I'm not getting the impression you understand the point of this post to begin with.  Go back and look at what I am doing.  You'll note that the point of it is to process relatively large amounts of coir efficiently.  When you are telling me to put the coir  in my pressure cooker, you are basically telling me, "Hey, why bother making twelve monotubs in a few hours when you can make two or three in many more hours?"  It would be great if you actually had some suggestions relevant to my goals rather than just telling me to do something else completely.




You said you had to drain off the manure and that you didnt add water to it because it sept in during pasteurization anyway, makes me think you're using something like a pillowcase.

The reason I said you can sterilize coir was to tell you there's no poitn in pasteurizing it,
and that if you dont think 90mins @ 15 psi makes a difference vs pasteurization or bucket tek just try it and see for yourself.

To prep large amounts of coir just get a huge container that holds temp well and dump boiling water onto coir.
its easier to mix if you chip off the brick and not have 1 big 5kg lump in the container.

TL;DR you're overthinking this, coir is fool proof trust me!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469700 - 07/23/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think the point is when processing that much substrate, it's the best route to things the best you can, yeah coir works in all kinds of ways, but when doing a large run of anything you want optimize your chances of success if you have the ability to do so, that's why I like what he's doing.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23469732 - 07/23/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

But pasteurizing coir isnt the way to optimize it, this is what I'm saying, coir wants as high temps as possible to break down lignin and make cellulose more available.
So if you pasteurize and make sure you're not getting past 160-170F you're just wasting time, get that heat up and keep it there!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469801 - 07/23/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You said you had to drain off the manure and that you didnt add water to it because it sept in during pasteurization anyway, makes me think you're using something like a pillowcase.




I used mesh laundry bags - pillow cases won't drain, and besides they're too small.  Back in the day I did it I'd collect the poo using the laundry bags.  I'd make a rope harness for the bag, and then submerge it in a garbage can of 165F water heated up on a crab boiler.  After the pasteurization was done, I pulled the bag out with a winch attaching to the rope harness.  Hanging over the garbage can it would drain off the excess water.  I had a scaffold with two winches attached so that I could cook two bags at a time.  If memory serves me right (this was a while back) I was making 8 bags of poo, and eight of chopped straw that I then mixed together before spawning and filling trays for the growroom.  As I was saying, between collecting poo and chopping straw and cooking and mixing and spawning it all the technique is really labor intensive, so it motivated me to learn phase 2 pasteurization which I did successfully for several years.

Now I want to work with coir (which I used to use as casing when I was doing the straw/poo runs).  I do not think it is foolproof at all.  I have made a number of mistakes working with it already.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469842 - 07/23/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
But pasteurizing coir isnt the way to optimize it, this is what I'm saying, coir wants as high temps as possible to break down lignin and make cellulose more available.
So if you pasteurize and make sure you're not getting past 160-170F you're just wasting time, get that heat up and keep it there!




I understand what your saying, but sterilizing 100 lb.s or more of substrate is going to be a way bigger errand than pasteurizing if you can find an efficient way processing it, that's why everyone has been building bulk steamers for sawdust bags, because sterilizing that much mass in PC's is a big task.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23469843 - 07/23/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So if you pasteurize and make sure you're not getting past 160-170F you're just wasting time, get that heat up and keep it there!




In that case the process would be to boil the coir, and get its core temp up to 212F.  I'd have to set up a rig using laundry bags, winches, garbage cans, scaffold etc. just as I described in the previous post. However, what I am trying to do now (just scaling up bucket tek a bit) is so much easier than that!  I am just looking for that sweet spot between ease of effort and successful outcome.  I've seen pictures of so many phenomenal results using bucket tek that it is hard for me to see why one should do more than just pour boiling water on the coir.  And I am not convinced it does not benefit from pasteurization . . .


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23469844 - 07/23/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

dirty spawn or foreign objects like grains in your brick.
just search and see what the TCs here have been doing the last 3-4 yrs, no one, and I mean NO one of the regulars here bother properly pasteurizing their coir.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23470017 - 07/23/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.




I've tried this.  Highly NOT recommended!  When I start experimenting with a process I try to begin with the easiest least work/expense approach.  Spawning to pre-hydrated coir straight out of the bag was the first experiment - really crappy results.





I used hot tap water to expand three 66qt tubs worth of cvg in a tote. Didn't have time to boil water and let it cool.
Ten minutes after dumping the water I mixed it and spawned.

Suprised to see the hatred for the method. It's gotten me weight. I'll be doing it again.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: filthyknees]
    #23470026 - 07/23/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

nothing wrong with that, beauty of coir. substrate is mostly a water reservoir anyway, bet colonization was right on time too with hot tap water!


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
    #23470461 - 07/23/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Suprised to see the hatred for the method. It's gotten me weight. I'll be doing it again.




"Hatred" is far too strong a word! Do I give off a vibe of 'hatred'?  I really don't think so.

However, I was not pleased with my results using hot tap water.  You did much better than me in any of the three runs I have done with hot tap water.  There are a some other variables that could have affected my results negatively.  I'd like to know what you did differently, because, frankly if just plain old hot water from the tap does the trick then I would LOVE it!


These two are representative of my better tubs - just okay imo.  Tasmanian strain.

And above is a problematic tub.  It looks to me like some type of overlay that I've not seen before.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23470519 - 07/23/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It's not so personal as a trend of hundreds of threads over years of people blathering on uselessly about their moot opinions on what to do with cvg.

Like any time in life when I know you can do anything, but still people will still tell me what to do
Not personal, your set up looks dooooope :smile:

When people post stuff like " I do NOT reccomend xyz" it's like people who have tried it know when they see stuff like people putting methods down as bunk when really they are fine. But a lot of people assume random posters know what they're talking about and take it as truth. Just confusing and unnessecary


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: filthyknees]
    #23470749 - 07/23/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I'm not going to recommend anything that hasn't worked for me personally. I just don't like having what I say characterized as expressing hatred - that's too much. I don't hate any kind of mushroom growing technique, or any mushroom grower, or any grower's opinions - they all have their place, and I have respect for all - even if I don't always agree.  Mushroom growing has been a life long love for me!

That said, what I was saying I would not recommend is using pre-hydrated coir and spawning directly to it.  I did not get good results that way.  What you are doing is different.  I also just did several runs with hot water straight from my hot water heater, and that didn't turn out for me well either.  However, as I was saying, I suspect their were some significant differences between your scenario and mine.


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23475829 - 07/25/16 03:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Hey, so I was wondering how long on the propane burner did it take to boil the water? And was it a pain in the ass pouring that? I was thinking about maybe using a small trash can like you for boiling the water and dumping the coir and other ingredients into the can when it comes to a boil and taking a shovel to it for a quick mix and then cover. And maybe for cooling it could be treated like cooling straw, except maybe cooled by transfering the coir right to the tubs themselves that will be used to spawn to, and maybe even cooled more rapidly in the lab with the HEPA running.


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/25/16 03:10 PM)


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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
    #23476621 - 07/25/16 07:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Seems like 10 gallons came to a boil in about an hour. 

I have a 1/2 gallon pyrex glass pitcher that I used to scoop the water.

Dumping your ingredients into the water sounds messy to me.  I would put them in a mesh laundry bag, make a rope harness to support the bag, and then pull it out of the bath with a winch if you want to do it as a bath.  I think coir is not so great for waterbath because it doesn't let go of water that easily, so it seems that it is easy to get it too wet, but I suppose you can balance it with the addition of verm.


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