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Mr.Caterpillar
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Registered: 07/28/07
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5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process
#23466861 - 07/22/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It was something Frank Horrigan said:
Quote:
Pasteurization is not just heating the core temperature of the substrate to 140-160F for 60-90 minutes. Proper pasteurization is also rapidly cooling the substrate after the pasteurization time has elapsed.
When I read that my mind went "ding!ding!ding!". What he said is right as rain, and I once knew it too, but somehow, incrementally, lost that understanding. That explains why my phase 2s were not as reliable as they ought to have been. Its because I was wont to allow the compost to follow its own biodynamic rather than controlling it with the result that thermophiles overreached and expended themselves and the nutrient base.
While coir is not as rich a substrate as manure, I am going to hazard to guess that the same principles are at work here. That is to say that you must cool the coir rapidly or the thermophiles will overgrow and ruin your sub. For these reasons, in my effort to scale up coir pasteurization, I wanted to see if I could control the temp nicely:
Quote:
5kg Coir Block Formula V.2
(1) 5 kg coir block (1) cu. ft. verm (1/2 bag Vigoro fine verm) (10) qts. gypsum (10) gal boiling water (14) lbs ice cubes ( (2) 7lb bag ice)


Process:
1) Boil 10 gallons water 2) Ladle boiled water over coir, break up coir (I use a 1/2 gallon pyrex measuring cup and heavy duty heat resistant rubber gloves) 3) Cover and let sit for one hour 4) Mix dry verm and dry gypsum together evenly 5) After 1 hour separate coir into two halves 6) Mix in verm+gypsum 7) Mix in a bag of ice into each half (temp should go down to under 100F immediately) 8) After ice has melted add more verm if sub is too wet.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Registered: 07/28/07
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466878 - 07/22/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've just been experimenting with this. Trying to work up a reliable, easy process for preparing CVG substrate from 5kg coir bricks.
Comments and suggestions most welcome!
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MMG
Artesano



Registered: 07/29/15
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466889 - 07/22/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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that's an interesting way to do it, cool tek! was wondering if you've seen any improvement over rapid cooling the sub to just regular cooling, any noticeable effects?
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spacechildo
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Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466926 - 07/22/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Registered: 07/28/07
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: MMG]
#23466963 - 07/22/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MMG said: that's an interesting way to do it, cool tek! was wondering if you've seen any improvement over rapid cooling the sub to just regular cooling, any noticeable effects?
Thanks! I'm new to working with Coir. I've used manure extensively. Started with dried cow patties and chopped straw water pasteurized. Early on, we'd pasteurize and immediately dump the bag on the table so that it would cool quick and we could get on to spawning quickly. This gave good results, and is the proper way to do it. However, as I scaled up it was no longer efficient to dump the bag of sub out immediately, so bags would sit with their contents in them to cool over night. Wrong!
There were enough other uncertain parameters that I did not see the way I was cooling the sub as a source of contamination/low yield. Depending on a lot of factors my pasteurizations were hit and miss. Basically, you want the pathogens to die, and the thermophiles to 'hold the space' without overgrowing. If you look at how dairies pasteurize milk you'll note that as much effort goes into cooling the milk (and keeping it cool) as does heating it up.
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TheChief
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Registered: 07/09/14
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
#23466972 - 07/22/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!

Yeah, just heat that shit up to kill anything present in it/break it down a little. CVG usually takes months to contaminate on its own, hydrated at feild capacity. Even after it contaminates you could still PC and use it, I have done it. I do not recommend doing this though. Use your materials asap after prepping.
You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.
Edited by TheChief (07/22/16 06:13 PM)
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466974 - 07/22/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!
No, it certainly does have microbes. It is not sterile at all. It needs a pasteurization (such as Bucket Tek). Putting it in a PC seems like a very laborious and inefficient way of going about things!
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TheChief
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466981 - 07/22/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hydrate, put in covered turkey pan, cook at 275-300F for 60-90 min. You can also half ass pasturize anything this way if you know what your doing. But I'm certain CVG or coir just needs to be heat treated.
--------------------
jcbowling1985 said: "Additionally I did one Armageddon jar with all of the types together."
Edited by TheChief (07/22/16 06:23 PM)
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: TheChief]
#23466987 - 07/22/16 06:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.
I've tried this. Highly NOT recommended! When I start experimenting with a process I try to begin with the easiest least work/expense approach. Spawning to pre-hydrated coir straight out of the bag was the first experiment - really crappy results.
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spacechildo
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23466998 - 07/22/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:
you dont need to do anything with coir, no microbes left to save so PC it, bucket tek it, pasteurize it, whatever fits your schedule!
No, it certainly does have microbes. It is not sterile at all. It needs a pasteurization (such as Bucket Tek). Putting it in a PC seems like a very laborious and inefficient way of going about things!
bucket tek is not proper pasteurization. try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!
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spacechildo
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467002 - 07/22/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:
You can get away with using CVG not even heat treated at all. All you need is good culture. Again, I do not recommend that either.
I've tried this. Highly NOT recommended! When I start experimenting with a process I try to begin with the easiest least work/expense approach. Spawning to pre-hydrated coir straight out of the bag was the first experiment - really crappy results.
results shouldnt be that bad, coir's just a water reservoir, the zest is in the grains
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467021 - 07/22/16 06:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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At 2.5 hours the ice had nearly completely melted and the temp is under 70F. Moisture content is at the high end of field capacity (which seems right for use in a 'set and forget' monotub).
Only problem is that the way I mixed the gypsum in this experiment has left me with some sizable gypsum clods - some as large as 1" in diameter.
This was meant as an experiment in substrate prep. The gypsum clods seem like the only boo-boo. Since it is an experiment, I don't mind tossing it, but on the other hand perhaps it could be used.
What do you think, are the gypsum clods a deal killer?
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MMG
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467022 - 07/22/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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just break them up? shouldn't be much of a problem tbh
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
#23467044 - 07/22/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bucket tek is not proper pasteurization. try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!
I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it. Seems like a pasteurization method to me.
I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'. The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker. I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
#23467054 - 07/22/16 06:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
results shouldnt be that bad, coir's just a water reservoir, the zest is in the grains 
Yeah, probably. Full-disclosure: There were a few other problems afoot as well, so I cannot totally hold the uncooked coir responsible. I may try to repeat the experiment under more controlled circumstances another time. In the meantime, my survey of people's use of coir leads me to conclude that pouring boiling water over it is the way to go - the sweet spot between effectiveness and ease.
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467082 - 07/22/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is a ton of labor doing i in bags in the PC, that's how I do it but I'm looking for something way more efficient as well.
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spacechildo
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467193 - 07/22/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:
bucket tek is not proper pasteurization. try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!
I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it. Seems like a pasteurization method to me.
I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'. The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker. I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.
partial sterilization is far from pasteurization man, partial sterilization means the core temp has gotten above pasteurizing temps for 10-15mins or more.
If you think bucket tek is proper pasteurization try doing manure with it you'll see plenty of fails because of it.
Only thing that matters with coir is you heat-treat it, break down the lignin to make cellulose more available for the myc. insulate your bucket TEK bucket with another one with hot water in f.example. just dont waste your time properly pasteurizing coir and monitoring temps. save that for manure/coffee/castings etc.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Registered: 07/28/07
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
#23467195 - 07/22/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!
Are you sure about that? I am trying to imagine a coco coir factory in Sri Lanka with equipment to process plant fiber at such high temperatures without burning it up. I can't imagine how that would work, and especially not with large scale processing of coconut fibers. Even if they could do it, the amount of energy required for those temps would be prohibitively expensive. Keep in mind that some aluminum alloys will melt at 1000F, and that at 1000 F you are half way to melting gold, and over a third of the way to melting steel!
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spacechildo
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
#23467218 - 07/22/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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maybe that's exaggerated but its way above pasteurization temps for sure! Just try it, it works. pasteurizing coir is a waste of time, sterilize them instead if you already jarred some up.
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: 5kg Coir Block Pasteurization Process [Re: spacechildo]
#23467240 - 07/22/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:
bucket tek is not proper pasteurization. try to sterilize your coir for 90mins @15psi and tell me how "inefficient" it is. bricks are made at close to 1000F, nothing left there to save!
I've not tried the bucket tek, but I have read numerous teks and logs describing it. Seems like a pasteurization method to me.
I don't believe that a fully loaded cooker will sterilize its mass 15psi/90m, so probably that is a partial sterilization, i.e.; a 'pasteurization'. The reason I call that inefficient is because you can't fit much sub in a PC, and it seems to me a lot of work to break the coir up, bag it, cook it, and then pull it out of the cooker. I have seen great results touted with this method, so I know it works nicely, however it looks too labor intensive for my purposes.
partial sterilization is far from pasteurization man, partial sterilization means the core temp has gotten above pasteurizing temps for 10-15mins or more.
If you think bucket tek is proper pasteurization try doing manure with it you'll see plenty of fails because of it.
Only thing that matters with coir is you heat-treat it, break down the lignin to make cellulose more available for the myc. insulate your bucket TEK bucket with another one with hot water in f.example. just dont waste your time properly pasteurizing coir and monitoring temps. save that for manure/coffee/castings etc.
How do you go about prepping a 5Kg brick?
Edited by Rooster Cogburn (07/22/16 07:38 PM)
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