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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: anthiawe]
    #23470134 - 07/23/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

anthiawe said:
Do you know any muslim woman personally? anyone from Iran? - i've been there by the way so careful making things up, any muslim at all that you know, very well, would say you are friends with? just because a government says they are shariah this or that doesnt make it so, or make it that their people agree with it. similar to the US, did all americans want to kill Iraqis?...maybe a bad example...

as for woman, i wonder if you understand the ontological perspectives of muslim women, they may actually see the world differently than you and want different things from it.




I will admit I've never met a Saudi woman, most of the Muslim people that I've met are from Iran, Egypt, or Palestine. You have to remember that there is a very large Persian community in California, and also in NYC, both places which I lived. Sometimes I go to to the halal store and buy Syrian and nabulsi cheese, and that Egyptian pear nectar, I really like that stuff.

For every Muslim woman I meet who feels honored and happy to wear the hijab, I meet another Muslim woman who feels conflicted about her religion, or wishes they didn't grow up in a strict household. 

Interestingly enough, almost all of the Persian women that I've met, are self-hating Persians who refuse to date Persian or Arab men. Instead, they are always dating or marrying white men or Asian men. Why is this? Is it perhaps because, Persian men are seen as overly jealous, selfish, controlling, domineering, and basically crazy?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23470146 - 07/23/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Secularized Muslims are not that different from secularized Christians in the grand scheme of things. Not all Muslims want Sharia Law in America. You can make the claim that it makes them not real Muslims, but the same claim could be made that you are not a real Christian for very similar reasons.




Yes, but the difference is, many Muslim leaders and scholars say that if you don't take the Q'uran literally, you are not a true Muslim. This theme appears time and time again, whereas many sects of Christianity such as Episcopalianism pretty much disregard everything written in the Old Testament.

This is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali even says. She is a former Muslim, and even she argues that Islam is not, and cannot be a religion of peace for this simple reason alone. And when she left Islam, she received numerous death threats and endangerments to her life.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470158 - 07/23/16 06:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Secularized Muslims are not that different from secularized Christians in the grand scheme of things. Not all Muslims want Sharia Law in America. You can make the claim that it makes them not real Muslims, but the same claim could be made that you are not a real Christian for very similar reasons.




Yes, but the difference is, many Muslim leaders and scholars say that if you don't take the Q'uran literally, you are not a true Muslim. This theme appears time and time again, whereas many sects of Christianity such as Episcopalianism pretty much disregard everything written in the Old Testament.

This is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali even says. She is a former Muslim, and even she argues that Islam is not, and cannot be a religion of peace for this simple reason alone. And when she left Islam, she received numerous death threats and endangerments to her life.




The New Testament of the Bible says that Christians don't have to follow the laws in the Old Testament, but most Christians (in America, at least) seem to think they have some value anyway.

Further, it's not possible to follow every commandment in the Quran, just as it's no longer possible to follow every commandment of the Bible, because of sociocultural changes which have occurred in the time since they were written.

Every interpretation of Quranic law is just that, an interpretation, and they vary widely.

The Saudi interpretation is known as Wahhabism, it's completely nutty, and heavily criticised from within Islam. This, incidentally, is the same interpretation followed by al-Qaeda and ISIS, the same interpretation that justifies their famed predisposition for killing Muslims, and enjoys a great deal of financial and political support from the ostensibly Christian United States of America.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #23470213 - 07/23/16 06:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sophistic Radiance said:
The New Testament of the Bible says that Christians don't have to follow the laws in the Old Testament, but most Christians (in America, at least) seem to think they have some value anyway.




Most Christians in America don't even go to church anymore, that practice died out in the '70s except for the particularly devout. The normal secular Christians maybe have a wedding in a church with a priest, or they'll baptize a child when it's born, and that's pretty much the extent of their religious activity in practice.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470235 - 07/23/16 06:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The US has higher church attendance than pretty much any other western country


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470248 - 07/23/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, apparently trying to convert a Muslim is a serious crime in all Islamic countries. Even in ones that don't have Sharia Law, such as Kyrgyzstan.






every time you try and make a point you immediately leap under the bus


Kyrgyzstan is nearly 90% muslim and nearly 70% say sharia is the word of
Allah revealed to man, I dont think you even have a basic understanding
of what sharia law is

let's not forget that Kyrgyzstan is a land where traditions are strong and
kidnappings are the norm for a young man and woman to enter into marriage


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: koods]
    #23470259 - 07/23/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The US has higher church attendance than pretty much any other western country





is that a raw number or a percentage?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23470275 - 07/23/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, apparently trying to convert a Muslim is a serious crime in all Islamic countries. Even in ones that don't have Sharia Law, such as Kyrgyzstan.






every time you try and make a point you immediately leap under the bus


Kyrgyzstan is nearly 90% muslim and nearly 70% say sharia is the word of
Allah revealed to man, I dont think you even have a basic understanding
of what sharia law is

let's not forget that Kyrgyzstan is a land where traditions are strong and
kidnappings are the norm for a young man and woman to enter into marriage



So,70% know the definition of sharia. What's your point


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470282 - 07/23/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Most Christians in America don't even go to church anymore, that practice died out in the '70s except for the particularly devout. The normal secular Christians maybe have a wedding in a church with a priest, or they'll baptize a child when it's born, and that's pretty much the extent of their religious activity in practice.



Yes, but you're not realizing that the same is true for many secular Muslims in America either. Yeah, the Somalis might be big on going to the local mosque. But lots of Pakistani, Iranian, Turkish, Egyptian, Iraqi immigrants who are Islamic don't, and don't do the prayer rituals several times a day either. Some of them do for sure. Lots don't and are more secularized in their beliefs than we'd consider most fundamentalist Christians who do still go to church to be.

That's not to bash Christians that go to church though. I'm not doing that. I don't bash Muslims that go to a mosque or pray often either. I'm more pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians on the forums saying that these Muslims who don't fit the mold of a Jihadi militant "Islamic government NOW" belief structure are not true Muslims. It's been said plenty of times here. They might not be wrong about the accusation, but then they are not the perfect Christians their texts tell them to be either, and that's where the hypocrisy lies.

I'm not sticking up for the faith itself, I'm sticking up for the secularized immigrants that get lumped in with the lunatics on the basis that they have an Islamic upbringing or some inherent beliefs they've grown up with.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23470288 - 07/23/16 06:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

koods said:
The US has higher church attendance than pretty much any other western country





is that a raw number or a percentage?



Percentage. Poland and Ireland have higher attendance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: koods] * 2
    #23470293 - 07/23/16 07:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Poland is Europes last hope against the muslim horde.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Registered: 06/05/07
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23470298 - 07/23/16 07:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, apparently trying to convert a Muslim is a serious crime in all Islamic countries. Even in ones that don't have Sharia Law, such as Kyrgyzstan.




every time you try and make a point you immediately leap under the bus

Kyrgyzstan is nearly 90% muslim and nearly 70% say sharia is the word of
Allah revealed to man, I dont think you even have a basic understanding
of what sharia law is

let's not forget that Kyrgyzstan is a land where traditions are strong and
kidnappings are the norm for a young man and woman to enter into marriage




What does that have to do with their laws? Either they follow Sharia Law or they don't. Muslim countries such as Turkey or Azerbaijan and Kyrgyzstan don't implement Sharia Law into their governments.

Bride kidnapping is not "the norm" for Kyrgyzstan, it is practiced only in very rural areas, and is illegal in the country.

Guess where else bride kidnapping is a thing? Among Hmong people.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23470302 - 07/23/16 07:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

In my experience, the muslims I've known have been Muslims by heritage only and were not religious at all and never attended mosque. I would say the Muslims around here are more secular than the Christians.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470303 - 07/23/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:


Bride kidnapping .





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OfflineCrystal G
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Registered: 06/05/07
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: koods]
    #23470305 - 07/23/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Percentage. Poland and Ireland have higher attendance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance




According to the Hartford Institute of Religion Research, 40% of Americans SAY they go to church, but in reality less than 20% are actually seen attending churches.

I wonder what percentage of those are white Americans though, if you only account for white Americans, I bet that percentage would be even lower. I say this only because certain ethnic groups such as Korean Americans and black Americans and Mexican Americans tend to be far more evangelical and passionate about attending church regularly.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23470315 - 07/23/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Yes, but you're not realizing that the same is true for many secular Muslims in America either. Yeah, the Somalis might be big on going to the local mosque. But lots of Pakistani, Iranian, Turkish, Egyptian, Iraqi immigrants who are Islamic don't, and don't do the prayer rituals several times a day either. Some of them do for sure. Lots don't and are more secularized in their beliefs than we'd consider most fundamentalist Christians who do still go to church to be.

That's not to bash Christians that go to church though. I'm not doing that. I don't bash Muslims that go to a mosque or pray often either. I'm more pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians on the forums saying that these Muslims who don't fit the mold of a Jihadi militant "Islamic government NOW" belief structure are not true Muslims. It's been said plenty of times here. They might not be wrong about the accusation, but then they are not the perfect Christians their texts tell them to be either, and that's where the hypocrisy lies.

I'm not sticking up for the faith itself, I'm sticking up for the secularized immigrants that get lumped in with the lunatics on the basis that they have an Islamic upbringing or some inherent beliefs they've grown up with.




What is your opinion on these types of polls then, that clearly show anything but secular reasoning:


Quote:

According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”  When that question was put to the broader U.S. population, the overwhelming majority held that shariah should not displace the U.S. Constitution (86% to 2%).

More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah. Only 39% of those polled said that Muslims in the U.S. should be subject to American courts.




Quote:

Even more troubling, is the fact that nearly a quarter of the Muslims polled believed that, “It is legitimate to use violence to punish those who give offense to Islam by, for example, portraying the prophet Mohammed.”




http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: koods]
    #23470325 - 07/23/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, apparently trying to convert a Muslim is a serious crime in all Islamic countries. Even in ones that don't have Sharia Law, such as Kyrgyzstan.






every time you try and make a point you immediately leap under the bus


Kyrgyzstan is nearly 90% muslim and nearly 70% say sharia is the word of
Allah revealed to man, I dont think you even have a basic understanding
of what sharia law is

let's not forget that Kyrgyzstan is a land where traditions are strong and
kidnappings are the norm for a young man and woman to enter into marriage



So,70% know the definition of sharia. What's your point





it's the same as my point about claims of alcohol being forbidden


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470355 - 07/23/16 07:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

After looking at some stuff on the poll, this one stuck out:

Quote:

As one Huffington Post article by Nathan Lean and Jordan Denari noted, the big, deal-breaking problem underlying the survey was that it was opt-in — rather than reach out to a random sampling of Americans, and therefore American Muslims, TPC posted the poll online and invited people to participate




http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

But I'm not debating whether or not there are some Muslims that believe in Sharia Law, just that most don't and that we shouldn't be branding people as such simply for labeling themselves as Islamic. There are many Christians here who believe there should be a government founded on purely Christian values. While the ratios of fundamentalist Muslims might be higher than that of fundamentalist Christianity, it's also true that many immigrate here to get away from all that.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Crystal G]
    #23470357 - 07/23/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, apparently trying to convert a Muslim is a serious crime in all Islamic countries. Even in ones that don't have Sharia Law, such as Kyrgyzstan.




every time you try and make a point you immediately leap under the bus

Kyrgyzstan is nearly 90% muslim and nearly 70% say sharia is the word of
Allah revealed to man, I dont think you even have a basic understanding
of what sharia law is

let's not forget that Kyrgyzstan is a land where traditions are strong and
kidnappings are the norm for a young man and woman to enter into marriage




What does that have to do with their laws? Either they follow Sharia Law or they don't. Muslim countries such as Turkey or Azerbaijan and Kyrgyzstan don't implement Sharia Law into their governments.





ok, now you're discovered the difference, it's not a part of their legal system
but that doesnt mean that sharia law isnt in practice, more than 1/3 of the
muslims in Kyrgyzstan believe that Sharia should be the national legal system



Quote:

Bride kidnapping is not "the norm" for Kyrgyzstan, it is practiced only in very rural areas, and is illegal in the country.





and yet it's becoming more popular throughout the country, even in cities, and
when the officials in these areas are doing nothing about it even when they know
about it, has it then become normalized? it's clear that the people dont give a
rats ass about the laws if this is a tradition in their culture that's been
outlawed but is still in such widespread practice


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Religion of Peace Strikes again [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23471024 - 07/23/16 11:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So, apparently this is happening in Austria right now. This bar owner set up an entrance fee of 2 Euros to prevent refugees from coming in. Apparently they were following women to the bathroom and harassing them and molesting them.

So odd that refugees would enter a bar when they don't even have 2 Euros and supposedly don't drink. Why were they going to the bar, just to sexually assault patrons?





In this video, a guy who oversees a pool talks about how he has stopped refugees from following and harassing women in the locker room. Now refugees are welcome only if they are accompanied (presumably by a native Austrian).



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