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Anonymous

Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe
    #2344332 - 02/17/04 12:51 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Is our universe inherently logical? Why or why not?

I say no. The universe, in terms of existence of the whole and its parts, is not based on logic. There exist predefined laws of phyisical matter that operate on "logic", but what are the bases for these laws? Why are the force of gravity or speed of light measurable as what they are and not something else?

Are mathematical values, numbers, and counting, the absolute basis of logic? It would appear so. But the basis of mathematics, the numbers themselves, are not logical, and here is why. Prime numbers. Think about that. "Prime." These numbers are literally the first numbers. All other numbers can be derived from them. Take away our symbols and names of these numbers and they still exist as values that universal physical laws are based on. Yet, scientists and mathematicians have been unable to find a pattern in the prime numbers. They appear to be, at this point in time, slightly random. Random? Then the basis of these numbers must be subjective, and thus not inherently logical. The prime numbers are then a result of some creative force (which for simplistic purposes I'll equate with emotion, since they seem to be one and the same).

Then again, maybe my logic is flawed.  :smirk:

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: ]
    #2344336 - 02/17/04 12:54 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:

the cycle of cause and effect has no beginning and no end...

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Offlineteen
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2344527 - 02/17/04 04:04 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There exist predefined laws of phyisical matter that operate on "logic




There does? As far as I know logic is just a means by which we can evaluate statements based on assertions. Logic isn't based on numbers and counting at all, but it is a different kind of mathematics that can deal with any values, including non-numerical, and even values that don't semantically make sense to human beings.

Quote:

But the basis of mathematics, the numbers themselves, are not logical, and here is why.




Your statement doesn't really make sense. A number is not something that can have the property of being 'logical' without any other information.

Quote:

Prime numbers. Think about that. "Prime." These numbers are literally the first numbers. All other numbers can be derived from them.




First numbers?

Quote:

Take away our symbols and names of these numbers and they still exist as values that universal physical laws are based on.




See you're assuming here that numbers exist without humans to have invented them. Many philosophies argue that an equation like "1+1=2" is not a universal fact, but a convention invented by humans, and since we are taught things like this at a young age, we accept them as being the laws of nature.

Of course that depends on your philosophy. Some people argue that numbers must have been made before humans with "2 legs" could ever be conceived.

There's no denying, that when I see 7 objects, I KNOW that there are 7 of them, regardless of what mathematical notation I am using. And I know that they the 7 discrete objects can not be evenly divided without breaking the objects up.

But how can I be so sure those 7 objects are only my mind's interpretation of the signals it's receiving, and is assimilating them into it's own understanding of mathematics?

Quote:

Yet, scientists and mathematicians have been unable to find a pattern in the prime numbers. They appear to be, at this point in time, slightly random. Random?




I wouldn't say random just yet. A lot of mathematicians believe that 'random' is just a word we use for describing patterns we don't understand. There is no such thing as a random number. Even computers use an equation/algorithm to generate random numbers. If you studied a computer program that generates random numbers for long enough you would figure out the pattern.


--------------------
Don't give me that load of bunk~!

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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: ]
    #2344530 - 02/17/04 04:05 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Er.
There are lots of ideas about prime numbers. To say that we've been "unable to find a pattern in the prime numbers" is a gross exaggeration. Do we have a complete understanding of all of the properties that we might be able to ascribe to the prime numbers? Not as far as I know. But this hardly means that we haven't found patterns of various kinds.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by "all other numbers can be derived from them". Also, your seeming acceptance of materialism as intuitively true, while perhaps _more_ acceptable these days, is hardly above reproach. There are some very good ideas here, especially w.r.t. how mathematical "truths" inform on "physical world" truths.

In fact, to say that mathematics are the absolute basis for logic strikes me as a little backwards. Our formal logical systems were made rigorous (or at least moreso) in part to allow for an axiomatization of arithmetic. This project proved slightly more difficult than anticipated...

I think that these are very good ideas that you raise---specifically, you seem to touch on the idea of "true in this world" vs. "true in all possible worlds" with your "Why are the force of gravity and the speed of light...what they are and not something else?"

I don't get what you mean by "the basis of these numbers must be subjective", either.

Are you saying that, given the defintion of the natural numbers and the definition of what it means for an element of the set of natural numbers to be prime, that determination is somehow subjective? I don't think you could possibly be saying that.

Are you saying that the set of prime numbers vs. the set of natural numbers is somehow arbitrary? Well, this is a matter of definition. I think we're saying that there are certain numbers which, insofar as our definitions are internally consistent, have certain properties. is this subjective? Oh, I just don't _know_!


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: ]
    #2344549 - 02/17/04 04:23 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Logic is a formal set of rules that thought must satisfy if it is to be judged rational. But logic in its essence is not creative, that is, it can only follow linear thought patterns, and is such an efficent way of exploring a certain line of thought. However human intelligent perception goes beyond logic as a creative perception does not pertain to a certain line of thought, but sees things as they are trough a flash of insight. Afterward we can crystallize the insight into logic that follows the terms of this line of thought.

Logic can measure the consitence of a line of thought but are unable to "invent" new lines of thought. Logic can be applied to the universe, but since (as Doctor says) "the cycle of cause and effect has no beginning and no end" there is no grand Logic that would fit all aspects of the Cosmos (such as a Theory of Everything).

As with prime numbers: i think there is a logic to them yet undiscovered. The generation of prime numbers can not be creative since i dont think that we create a new prime number by finding one, we merely discover what was already there.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: ]
    #2345049 - 02/17/04 09:45 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The universe just is. Logic is a system of reasoning used to determine the validity of ideas.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2345194 - 02/17/04 10:27 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You all raise good counterpoints. I may have confused you a little by my use of the words random and subjective, when I should have said arbitrary. My point was more towards the fact that physical laws and the prime numbers are arbitrary, as opposed to necessary. Now you're right that it's a little ignorant to say there's no pattern in the prime numbers, since we don't have a full understanding of their properties yet. But if there is a pattern, then that pattern would be arbitrary as well.

Where I am going with this is, the universe is not based on logic first and emotion second. Logic cannot account for biological evolution, because evolution isn't necessary. Logic explains only that which is necessary, and depends on arbitrary constants, which in turn are the result of the creative principle (ie. emotion). I think DoctorJ got my point immediately, which is that logic ultimately depends on emotion and also vice versa. Now for the real brain teaser: is arbitrariness necessary, or is necessity arbitrary? ....Just kidding. I don't want anyone to go insane thinking about that.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: ]
    #2345993 - 02/17/04 01:49 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>>the universe is not based on logic first and emotion second:

This is what contemporary science wants us to belive, though they are of course wrong :grin:

Matter affects thought and feelings, but thought and feelings affects matter as well (as over 20 years of research at PEAR-lab, Princeton University, is demonstrating). Thus consciousness and matter as two sides of an unbroken whole which we in our lower-dimensional insanity tends to think of as separate.
(See http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/bohmphysics.htm for a suggested explanation by late quantum physicist David Bohm.)

As for randomness:
A the directions that a ball rolling down a bumpy hill will take may seem completely random, but this is just so because we lack information of the exact topology of the hill. If we had taken this into consideration we would no longer say that the motion of the ball is random. So randomness is context dependent. Similarly the prime numbers may seem random, but with a further development of mathematics the randomness may be explained within a context, so that they are no longer random.

A belief in causality is not the same as a belief in strong determinism.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346221 - 02/17/04 02:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346254 - 02/17/04 03:06 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

A belief in causality is not the same as a belief in strong determinism.

No...but a belief in causality without a belief in inherent randomness is the same as a belief in strong determinism.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: trendal]
    #2346281 - 02/17/04 03:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

My reasoning:

Determinism grew out of Newton's perfect clockwork-Universe and the concept of Causality it enforced. Determinism was "overthrown" with the quantum revolution when Heisenberg and others found that on a sub-atomic scale our universe appears quite random - and thus unpredictable.

Now, if we do away with the concept of randomness...what are we left with? Causality alone...and Newton's clockwork-Universe. In such a system, free-will does not exist and there is a pre-determined future which cannot be changed. We may not have the ability to determine this future ourselves due to measurement innacuracy...but it remains predetermined.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346288 - 02/17/04 03:12 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Matter affects thought and feelings, but thought and feelings affects matter as well (as over 20 years of research at PEAR-lab, Princeton University, is demonstrating).

The PEAR-lab research is highly questionable. About half of their positives are credited to one test subject, and that person is part of the PEAR staff.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: trendal]
    #2346430 - 02/17/04 03:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>>No...but a belief in causality without a belief in inherent randomness is the same as a belief in strong determinism.

Well, strong determinism preaches that all that happens has to happen, and can be no other way. I belive in a creative principle, but do not think this has anything to do with randomness. I think we agree that the Cosmos is ultimately an unbroken whole. What does it mean then to be determined by the whole if you yourself are part of it? What does it mean to make a 'free' choice, and from what unaffected and free position would you make such a choice? Is a random choice a free choice?

I like to say that the human being sound the depths of the Cosmos. This means that we really have many layers (or densities or dimensions) to operate within. However these are not separate from each other. Think of Mr.Flat in Flatland, a 2-dimensional being walking around in his house. When we drop a ball into the area of his house the ball will first appear as a dot, then expand to its full radius, before diminishing to a dot again (as it falls trough the 2-dimensional surface). For Mr.Flat such an experience would seem quite acausal (with no apparent source), but only seemingly out from his Flatland perspective.

If we think that there is an infinity of orders (you reading this within your mindframe is an order, the function of the internet is an order, the moneysystem by which you have gotten hold of your PC is an order, etc.) which interpenetrate and affect each other, together making up the whole of creation (which is also infinite), then strong determinism would not make any sense at all as it preaches that all of existence has to follow a single line which "beforehand" has been written.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: muhurgle]
    #2346548 - 02/17/04 04:10 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The PEAR lab has conducted thousands upon thousands of experiments, so half of that would still be quite impressive. And of course they have to use their own staff as guniea-pigs. They hardly get any funds for their reasearch due to the mind-expanding and thought provoking nature of their work.

But the PEAR lab is of course not the only ones that conducts such reasearch. The Ganzfeldt experiments (thelepathy) are worth mentioning, and became famous because the sceptics had been with the team to frame how the experiements should be conducted in an acceptable way.

There is of course many more, along with a neverending story of anectotal 'evidence' along with a 50.000 years long shamanistic tradition. The current physicalistic western society is uniqe in its singlemindely material approach to the world. Who are the superstitious ones?

American intelligence (CIA) have spent a lot of money on paranormal reasearch by the way. They now wants us to believe that this was just a flopp and that the project is terminated. I would rather think that it has gone underground for obvious reasons.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346607 - 02/17/04 04:18 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

On a tangent: Flatland is a wonderful story! I've been looking for a copy of it for quite a while now, though :frown:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346677 - 02/17/04 04:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_features_psi_two.htm

"operator 10 has been involved in 15 percent of the 14 million trials yet contributed a full half of the total excess hits. If this person's figures are taken out of the data pool, scoring in the "low intention" condition falls to chance while "high intention" scoring drops close to the .05 boundary considered weakly significant in scientific results"

Seems bunk to me. The guy who wrote that article (science writer for The Guardian) also got a rather positive article on the ganzfeld experiments:

http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_features_psi_one.htm

Hei forresten :smile:


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346689 - 02/17/04 04:34 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

American intelligence (CIA) have spent a lot of money on paranormal reasearch by the way. They now wants us to believe that this was just a flopp and that the project is terminated. I would rather think that it has gone underground for obvious reasons.

The Army and CIA spent a long time with their "Stargate" program studying the use of Remote Viewing as a source of information gathering. Apparently you (any American citizen) can request the "declassified" documents from the government if you want.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: trendal]
    #2346772 - 02/17/04 04:47 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yes the latest verison is half a century old. I have not read it, just excerpts.

ABOTT, Edwin A. 1952 Flatland. A romance of many dimensions (original 1884)

You know that there exists an alternative to the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics? Developed by David Bohm 1952. The reason QM turned out the way it did is due to political and philosophical trends in Europe at that time. There was a strong leaning towards positivism and operationalism, what cannot be measured does not exist. But Heissenbergs uncertainty realtions can easily be explained by common logic. If you are to measure the position of a particle the measuring instrument has to be rigidly bolted to a space-frame so that it is not affected by the impact of the particle. Then there would be no elastisity in the measuring instrument to measure the momentum. Similarly if you have an elastic measuring device you are able to measure the momentum, but the position will not be determined since the measuring apparatus is affected by the impact of the particle and will thus be set in motion.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346789 - 02/17/04 04:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see a refutation of strong determinism or inherent randomness ever coming from within the system, and as unfortunate as that is, this is where we live.

And yes, these wacky physicalist/meterialists scientists. I mean, I'm sure those people within the shamanistic tradition were mere decades away from inventing, you know, cars and antibiotics and all sorts of wonderful things that this wacky, superstitious materialism which asserts "we can gain a decent if not perfect picture of the external world" has given us.

I don't know that I want to advocate for a super-strong scientific realism, but at least with science you get a relatively small set of presuppositions from which you, you know, prove things to people whereas this "shamanistic" tradition is not a wit better than "[the] proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures."

Dogma dressed up in fancy language and pseudo-science is still dogma. And I think that you're never going to get completely away from some dogma, but it really seems that not all dogmas are created equally. If not necessarily useful, science has at least demostrated itself to be contingently useful, and that, it seems to me, ought to be enough to suggest that the scientific dogmas if not "More True" than whatever these "Shamanistic" dogmas might be, well, they're certainly more useful in terms of doing the sorts of things that we want to do.

Ought we want to do them? In most cases, I think that the answer is "yes".


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346809 - 02/17/04 04:53 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hah! Declassify my ass! Tricks behind tricks...

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346857 - 02/17/04 05:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I have been reading "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart, in which she discusses the PEAR project in pretty good depth, and what they have been accomplishing, as well as other matters related to which you are discussing. 

  :thumbup: :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2346892 - 02/17/04 05:13 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You have to separate technology from the way science determine our worldview and acts as a religion in many cases. It is not as a spokesman against science I claim these things (I study quantum physics). What is science prime goal? To try to describe the world as it really is.

My personal opinion is that we are approaching a paradigmic shift in the way we view ourself and our place in the world. I do not think this is in opposition to science but in opposition to how we currently think of science. The world is as it is, wheter we like it or not.

So I am not saying that we ought to do away with science, but we ought to expand our worldview to encompass human consciousness into physical research because this is an anomalie (as Kuhn put it) that the present paradigm is no longer able to handle.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346927 - 02/17/04 05:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well put! :smile:

I also think we are on the verge of a somewhat ground-shaking shift in our views of the world.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2346930 - 02/17/04 05:23 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not entirely sure how science as we currently think of it (this we---I'm not entirely sure which group this is!) is inadequate for explaning consciousness.

Well, that's not true. I think that it is incapable of explaining consciousness, but that's simply because we have these "intuitive" notions of what it means to be consciouss that we're hammered with from birth. I think that, unfortunately, the real picture will end up being far more mechanical and far less transcendental than many might like it to be.

As one of the best examples, many people, if asked "Do we have free will?" would think it an odd question---of course we do. But where is the evidence that any such thing exists? There isn't any---none that convinces me, at any rate. And so, perhaps it is the case that science-as-it-is-now cannot encompass an explanation of free will. But this is only because the concept is unintelligible.


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2346990 - 02/17/04 05:38 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>>I think that it is incapable of explaining consciousness, but that's simply because we have these "intuitive" notions of what it means to be consciouss that we're hammered with from birth.

You are putting it all upside-down! You want to illegitimate the most basic and indisputable fact (your existence and consciousness) from a mechanistically oriented reasoning which stems from a dated and incorrect view of the world.

You do not need to look further than quantum mechanics to see that a system is more than the sum of its parts. Quantum MECHAN?CS is thus a misleading term.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2349723 - 02/18/04 11:00 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The_Visionaire said:
faen :tongue:




My my my, such naughty language.  :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2350239 - 02/18/04 12:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

fireworks god said that The_Visionaire said:
faen

never uttered such a word!!


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2350712 - 02/18/04 02:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hehehe, there is no shame in it. See:

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
:lol:

Hell, I'm just lucky I recognized it... I barely know any Norsk. :frown:

Anyways, to contribute to this, I would just like to say that I also agree with trendal that there is some ground-breaking paradigm shifts coming soon... exponential growth, exponential growth! Let THAT be our chant. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2351200 - 02/18/04 04:09 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunately, I don't see my consciousness as indisputable or all that intuitive. I'm sure there are a great many religious people raised in ReligiousCommunityXYZ who might say "But how can you deny that XYZ is our Lord and that He controls everything? It is the most indisputable fact of all!"

It seems to me that our indisputable facts are far more a matter of how we're raised than there actually being any.


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2353698 - 02/19/04 05:21 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Why would matter organize itself into the human being? Why would we as a process in matter suddenly begin to understand, to be able to root out the very same laws that govern us? Why are we alive while a rock is dead? Where is this border between consciousness and that-which-is-not-consciousness? I belive that everything is consciousness, and that consciousness is meaning. But of course the consciousness of a rock is quite different from that of a human being, and of course not at all SELF-conscious.

Matter is not just matter. I am thinking of psychometri, the ability certain people have to discern the past of an object or extract certain feelings or emotions out from the object. (Ref; Prof. Emerson, J.Norman: Intuitive Archeology; A Developing Approach, 1974).

We also have the phenomena of homeopathy, where matter seems to contain a memory.

I myself has also personal experience (primarily when affected by psilocybin) of places containing an alsmost physical vibration of feeling. (especially one time; I past through a certain room seeing straight ahead minding my own business, when I was struck by a penetrating vibration from the room I passed. I had no prior knowledge of this room and nothing that could explain why this happened. When walked further from the room it all went away.)

OK, I`m just saying that I have my own reason to think the way I think, and it is not built on faith or a fanatical or dogmatic agenda. This is really how I think the world is put together :mushroom2:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2354052 - 02/19/04 08:50 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Throughout this thread I have found myself to agree with most of what Visio has said so far. It is really refreshing to see someone expressing such ideas with such clarity.

I am of the exact same mind regarding the flash of insight we experience when we tackle problems and I think that logic follows only as a line of proof, in constrast to the way any computational machine operates. I think that this insight might be what Headroom refers to as emotion.

Mathematics is a very weird but really persisting thing. This is a kind of persistance that is interwind in our concept of reality itself. We are unable to think in any way about the world if we are not to use mathematics in some form.

Moreover, it seems that mathematical truth is independent of the mathematician, which appears to point towards some form of objective truth. Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery? To me this is the main question of the thread.

I think that any civilization will have to inevitably stumble upon some form of 'ideal' geometrical structures or an equivalent abstraction. An alien civilization would probaly have its own Platonic Forms, and even though these might not look like ours, they would correspond to 'ideals' only constructed in terms of their own alien perception. So, even though their maths would look quite different, they might have the same source so to speak, or point towards the same unspeakable truth. However, these are working ideas...

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2354095 - 02/19/04 09:06 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I belive that everything is consciousness, and that consciousness is meaning.
I am puzzled over this. I don't think I agree, at least I wouldn't phrase it like that.

By the way, one of my goals in life is to stay alive to witness the next paradigm shift.  :biggrin: Ahh... that would be a day... :nut:

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
    #2354301 - 02/19/04 10:34 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?

I think it is discovered or unfolded, its all there. Or is it? Drives me a little bit insane to think of. Not ready to enter this dark pit yet.. :confused:

Well my "definition" of consciousness is perhaps remote from how we ordinary think of consciousness, the same for meaning.

As I tried to convey; how does the organization of matter lead to consciousness?

An electrons path is ruled by its Lagrangian, telling it where to go and how to act. This is the electrons meaning in a deep sense. And this meaning is also its being.

I wrote in another post here that I do not think Truth is a truth that is ABOUT something. It is a movement IN something.
Similarly I do not think meaning is something that we HAVE, meaning is something that we ARE.

I think that the way we percieve time, as an example, is due to that time is an inherent part of our meaning. When this meaning of time is changed our being in time will also change.

This is pretty weird thoughts but I`ve been outside time in my psychedelic escapades as well, so its only natural that I try to make a model of it. That this is thoughts that one of the greatest physicists of the last century also had makes my assumtions stronger.

"Its meaning is its being" (Bohm)

OK, much to discuss but no time, and Mr Beer is waiting for me :beer:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2354329 - 02/19/04 10:41 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?

Neither. Mathematics is just like paint. It is simply a tool that is used to describe something.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2358947 - 02/20/04 10:50 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Mal, I would appreciate it if you could clarify the following points for me:

I don't see a refutation of strong determinism or inherent randomness ever coming from within the system, and as unfortunate as that is, this is where we live.
Why so? Can you elaborate?

Unfortunately, I don't see my consciousness as indisputable or all that intuitive.
Are you denying your consciousness?

And so, perhaps it is the case that science-as-it-is-now cannot encompass an explanation of free will. But this is only because the concept is unintelligible.
Do you mean that "free will" just as "consciousness" are meaningless concepts?

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Seuss]
    #2358978 - 02/20/04 10:59 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Mathematics is just like paint. It is simply a tool that is used to describe something.
I don't see how you can get away from the original question. Is this tool something we invented, or is it something that in a sense was 'waiting' to be discovered, i.e. something that can act as a tool but has inherent existence?

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2362560 - 02/21/04 02:11 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well my "definition" of consciousness is perhaps remote from how we ordinary think of consciousness, the same for meaning.

Maybe the two are in a sense connected in that meaning needs consciousness to exist, but I do not see how these two are in essence the same thing. I reckon I can be in a state of consciousness devoid of meaning (is this not what meditation is for?). How is this state of consciousness 'meaning'?


As I tried to convey; how does the organization of matter lead to consciousness?

I also cannot see how organization of matter can result in consciousness. I do not think we can assign consciousness to sufficient complexity, not even when this refers to specific organization. If I get a really long piece of string and start forming complex knots over knots, will it suddenly become conscious when it gets complex enough? Or is it that consciousness magically appears if I rearrange it in a particular way?

However, I still fail to see how consciousness can just be a property of all matter either. How does this relate to my own sense of consciousness? I don't experience any discontinuity in consciousness when I cut off my nails. Is it that just any possible grouping of matter has each own consciousness? A theory like that would violate Occam?s razor.

This is however, if consciousness resides in every single thing (that is indepenently of any greater consciousness). To be honest, I don't understand how everything can just be consciousness.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
    #2362960 - 02/21/04 08:37 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry raytrace. I just wrote you a very, very, VERY, long post arguing my view, and just as I`m about to post it my computer is infected by a bug that I`ve never seen before.

Earlier today I wrote a long mail to the UFO-thread. As I was about to post it an error came up "explorer has encountered a problem and needs to close" Yyppe!

This time I had taken precautions and had copyed my post to you in its entirety. But what happens? A strange bug occurs that shuts off the entire computer, erasing the memory of the copyed post.

Makes one wonder...

Well, I'm desillutioned now, and do not have the spirit to start over again... :nonono:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
    #2368199 - 02/22/04 02:05 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

This was meant as a answer to fireworks_god in another thread, but the way it developed it

probably belongs to this thread and hopefully answers your questions regarding my view.

Is order something we ourselves construct?
When saying "We ourselves construct order" this implies a 'we' that is somewhat independent

of order, standing outside the everchanging flux of order. You ask if it is chaos that

drives this flux of order. As some of my earlier posts imply, I do not really think there is

anything like chaos (chaos is just chaos if interpreted in a context which does not have

anything to do with the 'chaotic' system.

(i.e. random numbers generated by a computer is not really chaotic. The computer starts with

a number (the current time as an example) and multiplies it with itself, then extract the

middle digits and repeats the procedure. This is of course just one way of many. Even if it

is a very simple algorithm of low ordering, the end results appear entirely random in the

context within which it is used. But it is not really chaotic. Neither do I think randomness

in QM is a inherent complete randomness.)

My suggestion is instead that 'meaning', not chaos, drives the flux of order an thus change

in the universe.

If you have some order, this implies that there is a certain meaning 'to it', as order

carries the idea of information content. (But you see that the 'to it' refers to order so

you get the sentence: "order implies that there is a certain meaning to order". That is the

same as saying: "order is an order that has a meaning". This is not good enough, as the very

word order seems to imply meaning; perhaps order is the language of meaning? Or that order

and meaning are respectively the unfolded and enfolded aspects of the higer unity of the

two; being or existence. (Or that meaning IS being and order is the unfolded aspect of

this.)

The order of an electrons path shows where it was, where it is, and where it is going, this

path is the electrons meaning unfolded. But the theories that we build our knowledge of the

electron upon is only dealing with the explicate lower-dimensional manifistation of the

electron. The electron has probably many plains of existence.

We humans are infinite more complex than an electron, and as everything that naturally

emerges from the universe we sound the depths of the cosmos. Our soul or higher being has

its place deep within some enfolded aspect of the cosmos (the higher being may have infinite

layers (or states of existence), or a limited number (i.e. mental, astral, spiritual bodies

etc.)

We can contrast this theory of the human being with an exclusive explicate order phenomena such as i.e. a

Radio. The function of this Radio is intentional only to the explicate order in which it was

constructed. It carries no significant meaning at higher levels. The human being on the

other hand has been with on the journey all the way. The idea of Rupert Sheldrakes

morphogenetic, formative field, strikes me. Remember AI (Do not like Spielberg movies by the

way) when the boy woke up millions of years after the humans had died out? His life could

not be sustained, probably due to the dissolution of the human morphogenetic field following

the extinction of the human race).

Why we choose to have our attention directed to this lowerdimensional body, I do not know.

The sages says it is because we have a lesson to learn. It gives us a structure to operate

within that we currently need in our state of evolution.

There is a well mapped phenomena of near death experiences that imply a consciousness also

after the body is declared dead. Patients at hospital surgeries which has had NDE, reports

that they saw their own body and describes in great detail the procedure of the operation.

This implies that consciousness is not something that needs the neural system to operate,

although consciousness without the neural network is of a different quality. It is strange

though, that you can be under the influence of narcosis, and it just goes black, and the

next second you are back. The 'soul' doesn't seem to leave the body before the vessel is

seriously fucked up, hearthbeat stopping and all. Then again, I experienced an OBE at a 5g

trip and you do not really need drugs to experience such a thing either. But an out of body

experience is separated from a NDE in that the neural system is fully operational, so it

does not have the impact on our worldview that the NDE has.

It is very interesting to notice that OBE can be triggered with the use of electrodes at a

certain spot in the brain. This center in the brain was responsibel of organizing the

impressions of the world into a coherent experience. WOW! we see that such a center is in

fact filtering out only a certain order or meaning, giving credibility to the notion that

our "spirits" inhabit the human body to obtain a certain structure that is most beneficial

for our learning progress for the time being.

OK, so the human being has many layers. Who is the choser that makes the choice to raise my

arm? It is thought. Is this thought me? No, it is a lowerdimensional aspect of what I am.

This mental body of thought is again ruled by subtler orders (soul, astral body, whatever we

want to call these subtler orders).

Subtle orders affect the lower orders in a way that seems acausal from the algorithmic

procedure inherent in the lower order (The subtle is more powerful, David Bohm)

But everything is connected, and the universe is probably holographic as well, fragments

containing information of the whole.

Is order constructed? Well the question may have changed its meaning during this post.

Thought is an order, causally dependent within its own domain (but which can be influenced

from other realms of order). Thus if we take the whole piece of creation into account, order

is the unfoldment of the meaning of creation. This meaning is not determined as it is

infinite.

All is learning, learning is growing, growing is becoming, becoming is creation, creation is

infinite...


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2368232 - 02/22/04 02:17 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Thanks a lot for posting that. :thumbup: Your thoughts mirror a lot of my own, actually. I have to go to bed soon so I can't get into it, but I'll think some more about this.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2368254 - 02/22/04 02:24 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

>>"(i.e. random numbers generated by a computer is not really chaotic. The computer starts with

a number (the current time as an example) and multiplies it with itself, then extract the

middle digits and repeats the procedure. This is of course just one way of many. Even if it

is a very simple algorithm of low ordering, the end results appear entirely random in the

context within which it is used. But it is not really chaotic. Neither do I think randomness

in QM is a inherent complete randomness.)"


Um, I don't suppose you could use an example that doesn't involve numbers, do ya?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Frog]
    #2368267 - 02/22/04 02:27 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Well the ball rolling down the bumpy hill explained earlier in this tread is one example.

Another example can be death insurance policies. From the insurance companies view the death of each policy holder appears entirely random. They can howerver "controll" this randomness in large numbers as the deaths of the customers follow a certain distribution (I think it is called a Poiree-distribution).

This is similar to the situation in QM. There is no knowing when a radioactive nucleus is going to brake down. However observing many such brakedowns over time, they form a certain pattern. Traditional QM assumes although that each nucleus' brakedown stems from an inherent and complete randomness.

This can be contrasted to the death insurancy policy holders. For the insurance companies the death of a customer appears random (although they in large make up a certain statistic), but noone believes in this randomness if interpreted in the context of each policy holders life. There will of course be a causal reason for the policy holders death (hit by a car, died from cancer etc..).

Similarly I think there is a causal reason for the brakedown of an atomic nucleus, we just do not have the experimental instruments or knowledge to determine such a cause.

Edited by The_Visionaire (02/23/04 02:27 AM)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2368325 - 02/22/04 02:43 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

>>My suggestion is instead that 'meaning', not chaos, drives the flux of order an thus change in the universe.

I am in agreement with this, although I don't yet understand the basis for the statement. I read the statements that you wrote, and they make sense, and like I said, I've been reading The Field, and I've read some other stuff, and I have to admit that it's like learning a new language.

But I "feel" it to be true, so far. (*winks at Swami*)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Frog]
    #2368373 - 02/22/04 02:56 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

I`ve not read The Field, but I have taken a note of it.
You are right, these thoughts need time to mature. They are probably not graspable in terms of linear thought algorithms. This is perhaps why you have trouble finding a basis for my statements.

Then again, this is just a suggestion, my mind is not closed to these perceptions.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Seuss]
    #2368620 - 02/22/04 04:25 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?

Neither.  Mathematics is just like paint.  It is simply a tool that is used to describe something.




Invention: the creation of something that does not exist (and now does)
Discovery: being introduced to something that already exists

if math was neither invented nor discovered it was never created by us nor did it exist before we started using it. clearly this is logical absurdity. I can understand how you feel your reply of "Neither" to be very shocking to all of us pondering this question and you thus feel it has any sort of meaning. But alas, it just shows that you do not know what you are talking about. I had to point this out as it is quite annoying.  :noway:


--------------------

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2369238 - 02/22/04 07:00 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

WOW!!!  :oogle:

I need to review that since I have a ouple of questions, great post The_visionaire  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
    #2370873 - 02/23/04 05:23 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

>>I reckon I can be in a state of consciousness devoid of meaning (is this not what meditation is for?. How is this state of consciousness 'meaning'?

Just wanted to make a quick reply on this. I think that when we meditate (have some personal experience here) we do not trancend meaning, but we aquire a new meaning, more subtle than that of thought.

There is differences in meditational techniques but a common one is to watch your thoughts and not get entangled in them. This implies a shift of attention from the order of thought to a higher order (trancending the order of thought).

This relates to the discussion of the rabbit as well. Its main focus of attention is in the lower material orders. I think it knows feeling and thought as well, but the subtle observational mechanism is not there. We humans can get a quite different perspective on the material realm from our thought-based watchtower. No such thing for the rabbit. But it will get there eventually :grin:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2370997 - 02/23/04 07:29 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

thanks a lot Visio! I haven't read the entire thing yet, but I will consider it properly when I get the time (I am supposed to be on holidays right now and I need the time to do pointless stuff)

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