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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #23453698 - 07/18/16 05:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

How you or the author can emphatically declare that is beyond me.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23453722 - 07/18/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

As it took several posts for you to grasp the he didn't say 'less informed... I'm not surprised.

And he states it as his opinion. How is that 'beyond' you?

Also, I never 'emphatically' declared anything. However, you may be operating under a misinterpretation of what I actually said, which was "However, that so many don't know the difference causes me to wonder." Which part of that sentence comes across to you as emphatic?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23453752 - 07/18/16 05:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."




How emphatically no?

Which accounts?

At the absolute least, theres an argument to be made that advances in average education level, as well as technological advances, has "sufficiently better informed" the average American citizen past the "informed" mark of the average 1700's American citizen. Yes?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23453893 - 07/18/16 06:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."




How emphatically no?




Ask the author.


Quote:

Which accounts?




Ask the author.


Quote:

At the absolute least, theres an argument to be made that advances in average education level, as well as technological advances, has "sufficiently better informed" the average American citizen past the "informed" mark of the average 1700's American citizen. Yes?




Neither you nor I can say with certainty, but in political matters and interest... my feeling is he's on the mark. It's been my observation over the years that the average American doesn't care and/or is woefully uninformed about politics.

Ask 10 random people who their state legislator is. I know mine. I suspect you know yours. But I doubt you'd find a majority who did.

Ask them to name 5 SCJ's.

When it comes to politics... Americans should be embarrassed.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23453963 - 07/18/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."




How emphatically no?




Ask the author.


Quote:

Which accounts?




Ask the author.


Quote:

At the absolute least, theres an argument to be made that advances in average education level, as well as technological advances, has "sufficiently better informed" the average American citizen past the "informed" mark of the average 1700's American citizen. Yes?




Neither you nor I can say with certainty, but in political matters and interest... my feeling is he's on the mark. It's been my observation over the years that the average American doesn't care and/or is woefully uninformed about politics.

Ask 10 random people who their state legislator is. I know mine. I suspect you know yours. But I doubt you'd find a majority who did.

Ask them to name 5 SCJ's.

When it comes to politics... Americans should be embarrassed.




That's not just Americans. Every country has ignorant/stupid people.

I would say that millennials are very interested in politics, and do their best to be informed. I would also say that many of them are "informed" by assholes like Alex Jones, Stephen Crowder and Stefan Molyneux... On the left you have partisan hacks like Cenk Yuger "Informing" people. While he is a lot better, there is much to be desired. Combine that with an older generation who is "informed" by Hannity, Glenn Beck, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh, and you have a recipe for... well.. Donald Trump.

In order to have a well-informed public, we need a healthy media. How we go about getting there is beyond me. What I will say is that millennials are the most highly educated generation this country has ever seen, I believe they are the largest generation this country has ever seen, and they are better informed than their predecessors due to modern technology. The internet has sparked people's interest in politics, who would have never before been interested, because they are confronted with political dialogue far more often.

I don't see how a case could possibly be made that we are not becoming increasingly well equipped to make sound judgements on political issues. Especially moreso than the uneducated witch-hunters 250 years ago.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23453985 - 07/18/16 07:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with lds' general sentiment, I just think he's underestimating how uninformed the average 1700's American was.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23454003 - 07/18/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That's not just Americans. Every country has ignorant/stupid people.




Of course, which is why I didn't suggest otherwise.


Quote:

Hannity, Glenn Beck, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh




Ah yes, the rights versions of Maddow, Harris-Perry, Blow and Coates. One group of tools steers their lemmings right, the other group of tools steers their lemmings left. Po-tay-to... pa-tah-to


Quote:

I don't see how a case could possibly be made that we are not becoming increasingly well equipped to make sound judgements on political issues.




Because people are people. As long as they are fat, dumb and happy and they can click right to Kim Kardashian's ass, they don't care. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Ask your much vaunted millennials the same questions...

Ask 10 random people who their state legislator is. Ask them to name 5 SCJ's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23454006 - 07/18/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I agree with lds' general sentiment, I just think he's underestimating how uninformed the average 1700's American was.




And I think you're overestimating how politically informed the person of today is


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23454050 - 07/18/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."




How emphatically no?




Ask the author.


Quote:

Which accounts?




Ask the author.


Quote:

At the absolute least, theres an argument to be made that advances in average education level, as well as technological advances, has "sufficiently better informed" the average American citizen past the "informed" mark of the average 1700's American citizen. Yes?




Neither you nor I can say with certainty, but in political matters and interest... my feeling is he's on the mark. It's been my observation over the years that the average American doesn't care and/or is woefully uninformed about politics.

Ask 10 random people who their state legislator is. I know mine. I suspect you know yours. But I doubt you'd find a majority who did.

Ask them to name 5 SCJ's.

When it comes to politics... Americans should be embarrassed.




That's not just Americans. Every country has ignorant/stupid people.

I would say that millennials are very interested in politics, and do their best to be informed. I would also say that many of them are "informed" by assholes like Alex Jones, Stephen Crowder and Stefan Molyneux... On the left you have partisan hacks like Cenk Yuger "Informing" people. While he is a lot better, there is much to be desired. Combine that with an older generation who is "informed" by Hannity, Glenn Beck, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh, and you have a recipe for... well.. Donald Trump.

In order to have a well-informed public, we need a healthy media. How we go about getting there is beyond me. What I will say is that millennials are the most highly educated generation this country has ever seen, I believe they are the largest generation this country has ever seen, and they are better informed than their predecessors due to modern technology. The internet has sparked people's interest in politics, who would have never before been interested, because they are confronted with political dialogue far more often.

I don't see how a case could possibly be made that we are not becoming increasingly well equipped to make sound judgements on political issues. Especially moreso than the uneducated witch-hunters 250 years ago.




"millennials are the most highly educated generation this country has ever seen"

That's true in general, but in politics I would debate that theory.  The WW 2 generation was very educated after living through the Great Depression and then going to fight WW 2, those experiences can NOT be taught in the classroom by a liberal professor.

Today many people don't grow up talking about politics with their family members, they live too busy of a life on their IPhones and computers.

I have to be honest, I'm not impressed with the current generation and their knowledge on economics and politics.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23454130 - 07/18/16 08:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I agree with lds' general sentiment, I just think he's underestimating how uninformed the average 1700's American was.




And I think you're overestimating how politically informed the person of today is




Nah. I think one of the few things we can agree on is the stupidity of Joe sixpack.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23454208 - 07/18/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I agree with lds' general sentiment, I just think he's underestimating how uninformed the average 1700's American was.




And I think you're overestimating how politically informed the person of today is




Nah. I think one of the few things we can agree on is the stupidity of Joe sixpack.




Yah.

I could agree with the following...

I think one of the few things we can agree on is the stupidity of the average Joe/Jane sixpack.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23454366 - 07/18/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I agree with lds' general sentiment, I just think he's underestimating how uninformed the average 1700's American was.



The average 1700's American couldn't vote anyway. If we're comparing the average voter today with the average voter back then, I think the balance tips significantly in favor of the eighteenth century voter.


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #23465817 - 07/22/16 12:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
America is not a Democracy anymore




It never was. It was started as and remains a constitutional republic.




But democratic control is implied through the Ninth Amendment and Article V.

Your points are good, but missing the fact that congress is violating the law, the constitution and their oaths with regard to Article V.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here is an interesting article showing how Congress today completely ignores the will of the people in favor of its rich donors:

Consider:
- When 91% wanted to strengthen rules on clean air and protection of drinking water, Congress – led by the Republican majority – proposed weakening them;
- When 90% wanted to protect public lands and parks; the Republicans proposed putting them on sale or otherwise privatizing them;
- When 74% of Americans favored ending subsidies to big oil, Congress retained most of them;
- At a time when the majority of citizens favored allowing tax cuts for those earning over $250,000 to expire, the best Congress could do was to compromise on $400,000;
- When 70% of Americans said climate change should be a high priority issue, Congress took no action;
- Some 80% of Americans favor shoring up Social Security even if it means higher taxes and a similar number support retaining Medicare as is, but the Obama administration has twice offered cuts to both programs as part of a “grand bargain” and Republican budgets routinely seek to privatize them;
- Or take this gem … more than 80% of Americans want to clamp down on Wall Street but the best we could get was weak-sister legislation that doesn’t even address too-big-to-fail or restore a Glass Steagall provision limiting the risks these big banks can take with your money. And even this slap-on-the-wrist legislation is being completely eviscerated as it is translated into regulations.
- After Orlando, 92% of the people  supported a bill expanding background checks to online purchases of guns, but Congress has been unable to pass it;
- And when 85% of citizens supported a bill barring people on the terrorist watch list from buying guns, Congress couldn’t pass the it;




Congress has been unconstitutional since 1911 when 2/3 of the states applied for an Article V convention to stop the federal reserve act.  When 40 of the wealthiest Americans against leaving the gold standard died on the Titanic, April 15, 1912, that effort dwindled.

This letter starts a chain of events that lead to proof that our congress is unconstitutional.

http://my.firedoglake.com/danielmark...al-convention/

Can you accept that such a fact justifies that all delegates be elected in the states by the people of those states?

Because of that letter, the house finally adopts rule to count states applications for Article V.

http://www.examiner.com/article/u-s-...n-applications

However, congress refused to start counting applications occuring before the letter.  The speakers were sued.

http://www.foavc.org/reference/doc4.pdf

That suit, of course was denied.  Government is deeply unlawful.  These .pdf's by Bill Walker explain the developing status.

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file67.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file70.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file71.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file73.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file74.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file75.pdf

National Archives and Records Administration Effectively Terminates Article V Convention

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file77.pdf

http://www.foavc.org/reference/file78.pdf


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23465837 - 07/22/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
America is not a Democracy anymore




It never was. It was started as and remains a constitutional republic.




But democratic control is implied through the Ninth Amendment and Article V.

Your points are good, but missing the fact that congress is violating the law, the constitution and their oaths with regard to Article V.




I can imply my dick is 12" long but that doesn't make it so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Male

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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23465857 - 07/22/16 12:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
America is not a Democracy anymore




It never was. It was started as and remains a constitutional republic.




But democratic control is implied through the Ninth Amendment and Article V.

Your points are good, but missing the fact that congress is violating the law, the constitution and their oaths with regard to Article V.




I can imply my dick is 12" long but that doesn't make it so.




If 3/4 of the states agree, I won't argue.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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OfflineSpanishfly
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23466591 - 07/22/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

How can you have the rule of the majority when more than half of you cannot actually be bothered to vote?


--------------------
I am currently BANNED from using Private Messages - so can anyone who wants to contact me do it via my Journal thread.  Link is https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23831115

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OfflineSpanishfly
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23466606 - 07/22/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
That's not just Americans. Every country has ignorant/stupid people.






But Americans have made it an art form.


--------------------
I am currently BANNED from using Private Messages - so can anyone who wants to contact me do it via my Journal thread.  Link is https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23831115

Maybe some mod or whatever might think this has now been long enough.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Spanishfly]
    #23466652 - 07/22/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Spanishfly said:
How can you have the rule of the majority when more than half of you cannot actually be bothered to vote?




Simple. The majority of people who do vote.

If some do not wish to partake, they have made a personal choice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23471957 - 07/24/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I don't understand how you can believe that your vote makes any difference whatsoever. I don't vote because I am a felon, and because the popular vote LITARALLY DOES NOT MATTER! Unless you are a part of the electoral college, your vote DOES NOT MATTER!

George Bush Jr lost a popular vote but won the election...The only instance in the history of the Nation where your single vote should have actually counted, and it didn't. Have fun being contented with the illusion of a choice, you haven't a say in anything. Republicans found that out with Ron Paul, Democrats found that out with Bernie, and everyone else is going to find that out with Hillary. People are flying around banners that say 'Hillary for prison', and the overwhelming consensus is that she cannot be trusted and is corrupt, yet somehow the DNC thinks she is their best shot at winning a genuine election? Come the fuck on. She is the predetermined winner, Trump is there to be a 'racist, sexist, bigot' and scare Democrats into accepting Clinton. Are you really under the impression that Hillary was more popular than Sanders? Do you think she won the nomination because she had the most support? Or maybe, just maybe, the game is rigged in her favor... Just maybe, she wasn't indicted because she is part of the establishment that is ushering her passed an astounded citizenry and into the Whitehouse. Just maybe, the absolute power that is the United States Federal Government, has corrupted absolutely...Just maybe.

You honestly think the people running for POTUS are the best qualified people to lead our country? You really think George Bush Jr rose the ranks of politics to single himself out as the best guy for the job? Or do you understand that George was part of a bloodline that has been in the white house for 3 generations. George Sr.'s dad was in the Roosevelt administration. You'd think that those Bush's were super competent people, with all that political success. And to think that this election was ALMOST another Bush vs another Clinton.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: amp244]
    #23472007 - 07/24/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The only election that uses an electoral college is the Presidential election.  That is the least important election.  Your votes for local and state offices are far more important to your daily life than who becomes president


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