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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#23441171 - 07/14/16 03:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: If you really do not want taxpayers paying for someone's survival you better come up with ways to support embryo screening and preventing all other accidents.
The context was clearly with respect to welfare.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Morel Guy
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Yes but not all welfar is due to social disparity. There are many people born with or who develope disabilities. Disability is a form of welfare payment.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman] 1
#23441231 - 07/14/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: A higher minimum wage doesn't stop illegals from flooding the labor markets and keeping wages low.
A higher minimum wage DOES stop wages from being low. If the minimum wage is $15/hr, no one will make less than that.
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qman said: Boot the illegals and then hike the minimum wage.
Why not hike the minimum wage first? Is it really more important to you to stop the flow of dark skinned people than to increase people's wages?
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qman said: We are supporting the cheap imported labor for the elites which lowers our own wages, don't you see how harmful that policy is for US citizens?
A higher minimum wage fixes that. Do you seriously think if illegals are removed, corporations will reward everyone with big raises? We don't currently have an over-supply of labor; it's already been shown that unemployment, including U6, is back to normal.
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qman said: The working class pays for their health care, education, food stamps, public housing, welfare, and criminal justice services regardless of what happens.
Illegals don't get food stamps, public housing, or welfare.
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qman said: Moving the minimum wage higher is like putting a bandaid on a gun shot wound.
The beauty is that we have empirical evidence regarding the effects of a higher minimum wage. Places that have implemented it are doing well.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/14/16 04:15 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Posts: 32,557
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#23441237 - 07/14/16 03:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: Yes but not all welfar is due to social disparity. There are many people born with or who develope disabilities. Disability is a form of welfare payment.
It was qman's point that he doesn't want to pay for people's survival. I guess we'll have to ask him if he was including people with disability.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Morel Guy
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There is medical disability then there is something else like almost a cultural disability. People born into poverty and crime that just extend the legacy. Born with the choice but also influence.
There is genetics and nurturing. Seems people don't want to help out and keep alive those that received a raw deal.
Edited by Morel Guy (07/14/16 04:41 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Morel Guy] 3
#23441391 - 07/14/16 05:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: There is medical disability then there is something else like almost a cultural disability. People born into poverty and crime that just extend the legacy. Born with the choice but also influence.
There is genetics and nurturing. Seems people don't want to help out and keep alive those that received a raw deal.
To those people I say... tough fucking shit. Bunch of whiney selfish cocksuckers. We could do with less of them. No man is an island.
So yes, as a civilized society, we care for our disabled. We ought to take better care of our veterans also, but there is no doubt that their welfare is rightfully considered a matter of public responsibility in our 'culture'. The glorified individualist ideals of the right wing are purely fictional, and can't exist in the real world. Not in a functional, modern society.
To those who feel we should not publicly care for the disabled, I say:
Go fuck yourself, Carlin style.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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katsung47
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23444932 - 07/15/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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In U.S. terror power overrules the money (7/11/2016)
U.S. is a money dominated country. The principle is broken in this campaign. It was found by a Trump supporter.
Quote:
Is Money no longer king of the Presidential election? Look at this, Hillary has spent 60 million dollars in ad buys so far against Trump. Trump has spent ZERO!! Yet latest polls show a statistical TIE between them! This is the same thing that happened to Jeb Bush, against Trump! Money versus message. Looks like message is winning! What is your take? GO TRUMP!!
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=351411#ixzz4DGLlReIS
What message has Trump brought to us? Nothing constructive but a lot of abuse.
This "Money is king" rule will be broken in this president election. Because the Feds want to have their own candidate- Donald Trump to get that seat. So whatever happens - short of campaign money, it doesn't matter. You see what happens -Clinton has to buy ads with money, Trump gets it free. Because the media is controlled by the Feds.
This country is ruled by the Feds. They rule the country by controlled intelligence and media. They select politicians through rigged election and justify the election result through the fake poll done by media.
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: katsung47]
#23448531 - 07/17/16 01:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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it never was a democracy
it's a republic
ever heard of this?
The Pledge of Allegiance I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Douglas Howard
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: laughingdog]
#23448957 - 07/17/16 07:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Section 2 1: The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. http://constitutionus.com/
Lincoln also memorialized the sacrifices of those who gave their lives at Gettysburg and extolled virtues for the listeners (and the nation) to ensure the survival of America's representative democracy: that "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address
Simple Definition of republic : a country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen
"Son of the Republic," said the same mysterious voice as before, "look and learn." At that moment I beheld a dark, shadowy being, like an angel, standing or rather floating in mid-air, between Europe and America. Dipping water out of the ocean in the hollow of each hand, he sprinkled some upon America with his right hand, while with his left hand he cast some on Europe. Immediately a cloud raised from these countries, and joined in mid-ocean. For a while it remained stationary, and then moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashes of lightning gleamed through it at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American people.
A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean, and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud was then drawn back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows in sank from view. A third time I heard the mysterious voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn," I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and towns and cities springing up one after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them. http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/vision.html
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#23448960 - 07/17/16 07:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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so tired of dolts with half an idea just blathering shit out https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/
Quote:
I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.
And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.
Likewise, James Wilson, one of the main drafters of the Constitution and one of the first Supreme Court Justices, defended the Constitution in 1787 by speaking of the three forms of government being the “monarchical, aristocratical, and democratical,” and said that in a democracy the sovereign power is “inherent in the people, and is either exercised by themselves or by their representatives.” And Chief Justice John Marshall — who helped lead the fight in the 1788 Virginia Convention for ratifying the U.S. Constitution — likewise defended the Constitution in that convention by describing it as implementing “democracy” (as opposed to “despotism”), and without the need to even add the qualifier “representative.”
To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.
Now one can certainly argue that some aspects of U.S. government should become less direct, and filtered through more layers of representation. One can argue, for instance, that the 17th Amendment should be repealed, and that U.S. senators should no longer be elected directly by the people, but should return to being elected by state legislators who are elected by the people. Or one can argue for repealing state- and local-level initiative and referendum schemes. Or one can argue for making the Electoral College into a deliberative body, in which the electors are supposed to discuss the candidates and make various political deals, rather than being elected solely to vote for particular candidates. And of course one can equally argue for making some aspects of U.S. government more direct, for instance by shifting to truly direct election of the president, or by institute a federal-level initiative and referendum.
But there is no basis for saying that the United States is somehow “not a democracy, but a republic.” “Democracy” and “republic” aren’t just words that a speaker can arbitrarily define to mean something (e.g., defining democracy as “a form of government in which all laws are made directly by the people”). They are terms that have been given meaning by English speakers more broadly. And both today and in the Framing era, “democracy” has been generally understood to include representative democracy as well as direct democracy.
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
airclay said:
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luvdemshrooms said: Just because some realize that the average citizen is uninformed, self-centered, unthoughtful and uninterested, that doesn't make one a fan of big government.
this is an insult, all personal subjective judgements and doesn't tell me anything more than how you feel about the masses. It also shows a high likelihood of non-cooperation on your part too. Surely, this isn't what you meant with go back and read is it?
It is.
ah so you can't separate your feelings from your ideas. Demonstrating your ineptness when it comes to anything requiring objective thinking.
Edited by airclay (07/17/16 07:41 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: airclay]
#23450254 - 07/17/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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And yet it's still a republic. This isn't a feeling or a belief.
re·pub·lic rəˈpəblik/ noun noun: republic; plural noun: republics
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
Full Definition of democracy plural democracies
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
As we do use elected representatives and we do not have rule of the majority, a republic, for which it stands... is what we have.
And it's not impossible for ideas to coincide with feelings or vise-versa. The American people are not well informed enough to rule by majority. You bitterness doesn't and won't change that.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Morel Guy
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#23450641 - 07/17/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's why there is an electoral college.
I think we live in an age where people can be informed. It's just that people hold onto false information received via someones stupid face.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#23451902 - 07/18/16 05:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: so tired of dolts with half an idea just blathering shit out https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/
Quote:
I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: And yet it's still a republic. This isn't a feeling or a belief.
re·pub·lic rəˈpəblik/ noun noun: republic; plural noun: republics
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
Full Definition of democracy plural democracies
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
As we do use elected representatives and we do not have rule of the majority, a republic, for which it stands... is what we have.
And it's not impossible for ideas to coincide with feelings or vise-versa. The American people are not well informed enough to rule by majority. You bitterness doesn't and won't change that.
did you not read what I posted? you just fell into it like a trap dude.
NEXT
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
Edited by airclay (07/18/16 05:54 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: airclay]
#23452134 - 07/18/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I read your post. I laughed at it.
I'm still laughing.
You seem to have a hard time dealing with people disagreeing with you.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 45 minutes
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms] 1
#23452968 - 07/18/16 01:38 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: I read your post. I laughed at it.
I'm still laughing.
You seem to have a hard time dealing with people disagreeing with you.
I don't know why you're laughing. Airclay is correct. In fact, another term for a Republic is a 'Representative Democracy'. I often hear people say 'we're not a democracy, we're a republic', and I find it to be about as odd as saying 'It's not an automobile, it's a Ford!'. A Ford is a specific kind of automobile, but it is still an automobile.
In fact, this is why we use the term 'Direct Democracy', to define a different type of Democracy. As far as I am aware, those are the only two kinds of democracy. Representative, and direct. I'm sure I am probably wrong about that though.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/18/16 01:40 PM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#23453067 - 07/18/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I don't know why you're laughing.
Because we are a republic and not a democracy. It's just that simple.
Quote:
I often hear people say 'we're not a democracy, we're a republic', and I find it to be about as odd as saying 'It's not an automobile, it's a Ford!'.
And the people you hear say that are correct.
We started out as a republic and remain one to this day.
The difference is clear...
Quote:
ThisNation.com--Is the United States a democracy?
The Pledge of Allegiance includes the phrase: "and to the republic for which it stands." Is the United States of America a republic? I always thought it was a democracy? What's the difference between the two?
The United States is, indeed, a republic, not a democracy. Accurately defined, a democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. A republic, on the other hand, is a system in which the people choose representatives who, in turn, make policy decisions on their behalf. The Framers of the Constitution were altogether fearful of pure democracy. Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10).
By popular usage, however, the word "democracy" come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power. In this sense the United States might accurately be called a democracy. However, there are examples of "pure democracy" at work in the United States today that would probably trouble the Framers of the Constitution if they were still alive to see them. Many states allow for policy questions to be decided directly by the people by voting on ballot initiatives or referendums. (Initiatives originate with, or are initiated by, the people while referendums originate with, or are referred to the people by, a state's legislative body.) That the Constitution does not provide for national ballot initiatives or referendums is indicative of the Framers' opposition to such mechanisms. They were not confident that the people had the time, wisdom or level-headedness to make complex decisions, such as those that are often presented on ballots on election day.
Writing of the merits of a republican or representative form of government, James Madison observed that one of the most important differences between a democracy and a republic is "the delegation of the government [in a republic] to a small number of citizens elected by the rest." The primary effect of such a scheme, Madison continued, was to:
. . . refine and enlarge the public views by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the same purpose (Federalist No. 10).
Later, Madison elaborated on the importance of "refining and enlarging the public views" through a scheme of representation:
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind(Federalist No. 63).
In the strictest sense of the word, the system of government established by the Constitution was never intended to be a "democracy." This is evident not only in the wording of the Pledge of Allegiance but in the Constitution itself which declares that "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government" (Article IV, Section 4). Moreover, the scheme of representation and the various mechanisms for selecting representatives established by the Constitution were clearly intended to produce a republic, not a democracy.
To the extent that the United States of America has moved away from its republican roots and become more "democratic," it has strayed from the intentions of the Constitution's authors. Whether or not the trend toward more direct democracy would be smiled upon by the Framers depends on the answer to another question. Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#23453374 - 07/18/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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at the claim that the average American today is less informed than the average American from the 1700s.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23453418 - 07/18/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Since the claim wasn't that the average American is less informed, but rather...
'Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s?'
...your laughter is misplaced.
Are they 'sufficiently better informed' ≠ they are 'less informed'.
As I have no idea how well Americans in the 1700's knew the difference between a republic and a democracy, I can't say today they are less informed. However, that so many don't know the difference causes me to wonder.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#23453512 - 07/18/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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"An emphatic no."
--------------------
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23453538 - 07/18/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: "An emphatic no."

The problem with only reading the words you wish to read are that you wind up not grasping the entire context.
Quote:
"Are the American people today sufficiently better informed and otherwise equipped to be wise and prudent democratic citizens than were American citizens in the late 1700s? By all accounts, the answer to this second question is an emphatic "no."
Which of course still doesn't mean 'less informed'.
Let me simplify the authors words for you...
'Are Americans today better informed?'
'No.'
Better?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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