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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Douglas Howard] * 1
    #23438524 - 07/13/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
Let's say that I am an store owner that sell split pea soup at $5 a bowl. But I pays my employees $15 an hour. But the price of peas has dropped down to the lowest that it ever had been before.



Then you'll be able to sell your soup for the lowest price that it ever had been before also.

Quote:

Douglas Howard said:
And now my competitors are selling their pea soup for $1 a bowl. And now that means that I am going to have to down size because I cannot pay all my employees top wage anymore. Useless they all agree to take a pay cut.



But this discussion is about minimum wage.  If minimum wage is $15/hr for everyone, then your competitors wouldn't be able to cut their prices below yours.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23440194 - 07/14/16 08:12 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

^ plus once trump builds his wall the illegal labor market will simply cease to exist.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23440282 - 07/14/16 08:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

There are already walls at the border and they blow torch holes in those.


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23440363 - 07/14/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ plus once trump builds his wall the illegal labor market will simply cease to exist.




I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23440368 - 07/14/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
There are already walls at the border and they blow torch holes in those.




There's little border enforcement, that's going to change along with the hiring of illegals and the handing out the freebies.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman] * 1
    #23440415 - 07/14/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: airclay]
    #23440452 - 07/14/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Just because some realize that the average citizen is uninformed, self-centered, unthoughtful and uninterested, that doesn't make one a fan of big government.






this is an insult, all personal subjective judgements and doesn't tell me anything more than how you feel about the masses. It also shows a high likelihood of non-cooperation on your part too. Surely, this isn't what you meant with go back and read is it?





It is.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23440479 - 07/14/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:




Seriously.

I hope qman hasnt used all 3 wishes on that magic lamp he found, because then we could be a nation of 300,000,000 small business owners.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23440484 - 07/14/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:




You don't know why it's better that a US citizen is working a job instead of an illegal working that very same job?  Because employing US citizens is a priority for the US economy, it's not the goal to employ illegals.

The fact that the employment is under the table has nothing to do with the fact that US citizens should be working that job instead of illegals. Some people work under the table at rates double or triple the minimum wage.


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23440491 - 07/14/16 10:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:




Seriously.

I hope qman hasnt used all 3 wishes on that magic lamp he found, because then we could be a nation of 300,000,000 small business owners.




I have no idea the point you're trying to make, I believe the US citizens should be working jobs in the US over people who illegally enter the US, do you disagree with that sentiment?


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23440499 - 07/14/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

There's still is going to be migrant workers, but they all will have to be documented. The illegals are not, and if they does a crime, that there's no way to track them down. The only ones that want the illegals here, are the ones that are having them to smuggle in drugs or having them to work for very low wages and perform all sort of sexual acts but they cannot get help from law enforcement. They are basically will be treated as slaves that can bring drugs in and cannot be convicted but deported back to there country. Locking up most immigrants is like sending them to a resort. Our prison system is way better than theirs. Our compared to there's is like living at the Ritz. Cannot understand why it is a bid deal to have our borders controlled. You cannot enter the Whitehouse without an I.D. Almost every place we go that we must carry identification to prove whom we are. If you doesn't carry your I.D. that you will be taken down town to prove whom you are that if there has been suspicious activity or a crime comitted in the area.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman]
    #23440526 - 07/14/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Never seen border wars on TV?  There are huge amounts of border enforcement.  It's basically an army patrolling intercepting people and contraband 24/7.  It's just the shear determination and numbers game that things get thru.  Trying to stop this is like trying to stop the VC.  Politically it cannot last forever.  Best thing would be to legalize and regulate courteously drug production within the states.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman] * 1
    #23440659 - 07/14/16 11:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:




You don't know why it's better that a US citizen is working a job instead of an illegal working that very same job?  Because employing US citizens is a priority for the US economy, it's not the goal to employ illegals.

The fact that the employment is under the table has nothing to do with the fact that US citizens should be working that job instead of illegals. Some people work under the table at rates double or triple the minimum wage.




So its alright for employers to participate in illegal labor practices, but not the laborers.

America :cookiemonster:


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23440874 - 07/14/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'd rather have US citizens working under the table instead of illegals, I think you can understand why that result is better for US workers.



I actually don't understand why it would be better for US workers to work under the table.  So employees don't have to pay them minimum wage?  So they don't get benefits?  :shrug:




You don't know why it's better that a US citizen is working a job instead of an illegal working that very same job?  Because employing US citizens is a priority for the US economy, it's not the goal to employ illegals.

The fact that the employment is under the table has nothing to do with the fact that US citizens should be working that job instead of illegals. Some people work under the table at rates double or triple the minimum wage.




So its alright for employers to participate in illegal labor practices, but not the laborers.

America :cookiemonster:




Never said it was "alright", just preferable to illegals working that job instead of an American.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman] * 1
    #23440886 - 07/14/16 01:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
You don't know why it's better that a US citizen is working a job instead of an illegal working that very same job?  Because employing US citizens is a priority for the US economy, it's not the goal to employ illegals.



You keep making the false assumption that the number of jobs is finite.  The more workers we have, the more money gets spent, the more jobs are created.  That's why the unemployment rate stays relatively constant even as the population goes up.

Illegal workers may drive wages down in fields like agriculture, gardening, and child care, but those are jobs few legal citizens want.  It's also why we need a higher minimum wage, and why we don't want US workers to work under the table.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23440931 - 07/14/16 01:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
You don't know why it's better that a US citizen is working a job instead of an illegal working that very same job?  Because employing US citizens is a priority for the US economy, it's not the goal to employ illegals.



You keep making the false assumption that the number of jobs is finite.  The more workers we have, the more money gets spent, the more jobs are created.  That's why the unemployment rate stays relatively constant even as the population goes up.

Illegal workers may drive wages down in fields like agriculture, gardening, and child care, but those are jobs few legal citizens want.  It's also why we need a higher minimum wage, and why we don't want US workers to work under the table.




"The more workers we have, the more money gets spend, the more jobs are created"

It's a mis-allocation of resources to have poor people coming into the US to work low wage jobs and then burden the taxpayer for their survival, your fantasy version of this economic utopia is delusional.

"unemployment stays constant even as the population goes up"

That's true, but due to globalization we are shipping jobs out of the US therefore making more competition for the jobs that remain in the US, we don't need more workers relative to jobs.

"Illegal workers may drive down wages in fields like agriculture, gardening, and child care"

Total nonsense, the open door policy is too drive down wages for ALL US workers, mission accomplished!!  When you flood the low-skilled labor markets, you force workers to gain skills and education, as a result you end up flooding those markets and driving those wages lower.

The corporate elites didn't force the R's and D's to maintain an open border for cheaper agriculture and gardening, it's too lower everyone's wages.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman]
    #23440975 - 07/14/16 01:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Agriculture seems to be one industry that doesn't require minimum wage.  I've picked strawberries and paid by the pint.  I was a minor too!

I'd love to hire some illegals and grow some stuff.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: qman] * 1
    #23440978 - 07/14/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"The more workers we have, the more money gets spend, the more jobs are created"

It's a mis-allocation of resources to have poor people coming into the US to work low wage jobs and then burden the taxpayer for their survival, your fantasy version of this economic utopia is delusional.



The only delusional fantasy is your straw man argument.  I'm the one calling for a higher minimum wage so that taxpayers AREN'T burdened to pay for anyone's survival.

Quote:

qman said:
"unemployment stays constant even as the population goes up"

That's true, but due to globalization we are shipping jobs out of the US therefore making more competition for the jobs that remain in the US, we don't need more workers relative to jobs.



I've shown you many times that the unemployment rate isn't a problem in the US today; low wages are.  Hence, the call for a higher minimum wage.

Quote:

qman said:
"Illegal workers may drive down wages in fields like agriculture, gardening, and child care"

Total nonsense, the open door policy is too drive down wages for ALL US workers, mission accomplished!!  When you flood the low-skilled labor markets, you force workers to gain skills and education, as a result you end up flooding those markets and driving those wages lower.



Another strong argument for an increased minimum wage.

Quote:

qman said:
The corporate elites didn't force the R's and D's to maintain an open border for cheaper agriculture and gardening, it's too lower everyone's wages.



I would argue it's the former.  Regardless, this is yet ANOTEHR argument in favor of a higher minimum wage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23441060 - 07/14/16 02:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

If you really do not want taxpayers paying for someone's survival you better come up with ways to support embryo screening and preventing all other accidents.


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Offlineqman
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Re: America is not a Democracy anymore [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23441071 - 07/14/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

A higher minimum wage doesn't stop illegals from flooding the labor markets and keeping wages low.  Boot the illegals and then hike the minimum wage.

We are supporting the cheap imported labor for the elites which lowers our own wages, don't you see how harmful that policy is for US citizens? 

The working class pays for their health care, education, food stamps, public housing, welfare, and criminal justice services regardless of what happens. Moving the minimum wage higher is like putting a bandaid on a gun shot wound.


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