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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: bodhisatta]
#23439752 - 07/14/16 01:06 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I mean shit, at first I was puzzled. By the way he was posting I thought I read his posts wrong or something. Then I got halfway down and I was like:

I do have respect for him and his work but he took a really wierd and wrong stance in this thread.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23439790 - 07/14/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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You get to know the ppl to listen to and not listen to after a while
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Snazz
Polymath



Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
#23440255 - 07/14/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: It's true, in TMC stamets does say that the best incubating temp is 86F
Not he does not, not sure if you forgot to put "not" in there or if you really still believe he said that.
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Supalemonhaze said:I've seen the comments by RR saying that stamets revised his info in seminars
RR seemed to think he recommended to incubate at 86F too, he infers that in many threads. The only time I saw him say otherwise was when I questioned him specifically about it. He also did not say the temp Stamets changed to, not that he ever gave an incubation temp in the first place.
RR was saying "80F is fine for incubating" You were saying "incubating temperature. 80F is way too much"
My feelings are that matching the habitat and environment to the locale the organism evolved in = optimal. Generalizations are fine to a point
IE: Thailand is 27-32 degrees all year
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Snazz]
#23440303 - 07/14/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Snazz said: My feelings are that matching the habitat and environment to the locale the organism evolved in = optimal.
Oh yep I'm sure the good Lord placed things only in the environments they do best in. We all know it's impossible for an adaptive species to rough it through conditions they don't actually prefer.
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Inocuole]
#23440307 - 07/14/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah... We kick nature's ass. Controlled conditions > uncontrolled conditions.
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Snazz
Polymath



Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Inocuole]
#23440449 - 07/14/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
Snazz said: My feelings are that matching the habitat and environment to the locale the organism evolved in = optimal.
Oh yep I'm sure the good Lord placed things only in the environments they do best in. We all know it's impossible for an adaptive species to rough it through conditions they don't actually prefer.
Wow dude. That is not even close to what I said. No reading between the lines required
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Snazz]
#23440632 - 07/14/16 11:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't believe that either. Nature grows nowhere near the yields we do. There are plenty of times where the conditions in nature are not optimal. Have you never seen crusty shroom pics or even frozen ones?
This reminds me of what clint massey (a newb with half a grow under his belt) said about a week ago. He wanted to match the Rh and temp to whatever country his cube came from. Said he truly believes that it's the best way to grow that certain variety and that the people who don't believe that are small minded.

In the end, you can get a canopy in a wide range of temps and Rh's if you know what you are doing. With higher temps there is a little bit of luck involved. Everyone notices higher contam rates in summer.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23441011 - 07/14/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Supalemonhaze said: Why am I digging a hole, exactly?
To save face.
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Supalemonhaze said: Seems to me like you're just avoiding my question, to which you said "already covered this".
It was already covered, do you really think I never saw that graph before and caught me out or something? that graph was brought up continually by RR and others. Posted earlier
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blackout said: The usual figure is 86F, which is also in correct, it is commonly said he recommended incubating at 86F.
In this old thread RR thankfully admitted this was not the case. He was often the one inferring it, or mentioning that others were saying it, in effect inferring it.
Quote:
blackout said:
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Dudester67 said: Stamets (and others) have revised many things since TMC came out in 1983. And one of those things is colonization temps.
Have you any links to his revised recommendations? Has he actually published new ones for cubensis, or posted it somewhere where it can be verified. I read "Stamets has since said", about a few things, but nothing to back it up most of the time.
The TMC makes it pretty clear that substrate will be higher than the room air temp. Some people seem to think there was some oversight or mistake and think he recommended incubating in rooms at 86F or something. Now some may have read the book and incorrectly came up with that idea, but that is their mistake.
From TMC
Quote:
Substrate Temperature Since mushroom mycelium grows within the substrate, the substrate temperature must be monitored closely. Thermometers are placed both in the center of the substrate—the hottest region —and in the room's atmosphere. These two thermometers establish a temperature differential. If the hottest point in the substrate is 80 ° F. and the air is 70 ° F. then the temperature of the total mass •must lie within this range. The optimum temperature for mycelial growth varies depending on the mushroom species. Agaricus brunnescens grows fastest at 77 °F. whereas Psilocybe cubensis prefers 86 °F.
I am not saying 86F is the ideal substrate temp either, just pointing out that nowhere in TMC does he recommend "leaving jars in an incubator set to 86F", which many think he did. In the growth parameter section he says recommends 84-86F as substrate temp.
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Supalemonhaze said: Why, oh why should I go out of my way to incubate jars IF I have a room temp of 75F? Does it magically make it go faster? Not even gonna bother if you ignore it this time.
As I said, it was already covered, I guess you still did not bother to try and see where.
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blackout said: My main point here was to stop the false perpetuation of bullshit that people claim Stamets said. It's quite ironic when you think about it.
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blackout said: I was not personally recommending any temp in this thread, simply calling out the bullshit I continually see.
My first post was asking/calling you out about the "really bad info" comment, that is all I was concerned with. I am sick to death of reading the same lies told over and over (most of the time unknowingly), I imagine it has put many people off buying what I consider a worthwhile book. If people are in doubt about paraphrasing just use quotes from the book. I guess most badmouthing it have never even read it, and just reiterating what others mistakenly said.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
#23441027 - 07/14/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Too bad I have. Still haven't finished it but I read most of what interests me. There's a lot of good info on it but some things are not and straight out wrong.
You say that you "saw" the chart before yet you say:
Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: It's true, in TMC stamets does say that the best incubating temp is 86F
Not he does not, not sure if you forgot to put "not" in there or if you really still believe he said that.
So what is he saying by putting that chart on there? This is a rhetoric question really, I have zero interest in what you have to say since you keep ignoring my questions and then saying that I'm the one trying to save face. I mean, take a look at the posts above, seems like I'm not the one making a fool of myself here. Even people in journals are confused as to what your point is. I quoted that for you as well.
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Snazz
Polymath



Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23441081 - 07/14/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Of course we make far more optimal conditions inside vs outside. Doesn't mean that a Thai cube is going to love 20°c either. Thermal death at 30°c ain't gonna happen either.
Tropical varieties of any lifeform are used to a 5 degree swing maximum. Will they live outside it? Maybe. Is it ignored for any other cultivation? No. Ijs
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Snazz]
#23441103 - 07/14/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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A thai cube will like 20C as much as any cube will though, regardless of where they are from.
I grow cubes in the lower 60's during the coldest months. They don't like it, but they grow regardless. 68F(20C) isn't really that bad anyway. I have mentioned in this thread already how there was only a 2-3 day difference in full colonization between jars incubated at 75F and jars left in room temp in the lower 60's.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Snazz]
#23441114 - 07/14/16 02:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Snazz said:
Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: It's true, in TMC stamets does say that the best incubating temp is 86F
Not he does not, not sure if you forgot to put "not" in there or if you really still believe he said that.
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:I've seen the comments by RR saying that stamets revised his info in seminars
RR seemed to think he recommended to incubate at 86F too, he infers that in many threads. The only time I saw him say otherwise was when I questioned him specifically about it. He also did not say the temp Stamets changed to, not that he ever gave an incubation temp in the first place.
RR was saying "80F is fine for incubating" You were saying "incubating temperature. 80F is way too much"
My feelings are that matching the habitat and environment to the locale the organism evolved in = optimal. Generalizations are fine to a point
IE: Thailand is 27-32 degrees all year
Remember mushrooms grow in weird places, niche environment. Ground temperature from irrigation on farms that have poo can mean lower than ambient temperature in soil at night.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: bodhisatta]
#23441150 - 07/14/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also all vendor syringes we get are from mushrooms grown indoors focusing on spore production, by the time a thai cube print reaches you the genetic pool have already been narrowed down so much the ones left have gotten used to grow in a tub indoors in a temp very different from its ancestors wild location.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23441152 - 07/14/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: So what is he saying by putting that chart on there? This is a rhetoric question really, I have zero interest in what you have to say
That makes sense so, I have already posted it twice but you have no interest. Maybe some others are just as blind, so for their benefit, 3 more times.
Quote:
blackout said: The TMC makes it pretty clear that substrate will be higher than the room air temp. Some people seem to think there was some oversight or mistake and think he recommended incubating in rooms at 86F or something. Now some may have read the book and incorrectly came up with that idea, but that is their mistake.
Quote:
blackout said: The TMC makes it pretty clear that substrate will be higher than the room air temp. Some people seem to think there was some oversight or mistake and think he recommended incubating in rooms at 86F or something. Now some may have read the book and incorrectly came up with that idea, but that is their mistake.
Quote:
blackout said: The TMC makes it pretty clear that substrate will be higher than the room air temp. Some people seem to think there was some oversight or mistake and think he recommended incubating in rooms at 86F or something. Now some may have read the book and incorrectly came up with that idea, but that is their mistake.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
#23441161 - 07/14/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Blackout, you have completely thread jacked OPs thread because 3 days ago supa said it was from TMC. Could you have let this go if his post rather looked like this?
Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: If I am guessing correctly, you seem to think that 80F is the "best" incubating temperature. 80F is way too much and that is based on some really bad info on TMC. Even the author of TMC later admitted that this is wrong information.
Have you any links about this "really bad info"?
I understand its a subject you feel strongly about, just like tyndalization, but this is getting out of hand dude. relax
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: spacechildo]
#23441188 - 07/14/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: Could you have let this go if his post rather looked like this?
There would have been nothing to let go of, the only thing I was questioning was the alleged advice in TMC. Then I am accused of bullshitting.
I would not agree that "80F is way too much" but probably would not have bothered commenting as anybody searching will see it is deemed fine by most, however most searching the TMC quote would not see that it is incorrect as it is paraphrased incorrectly more often than not.
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
#23441209 - 07/14/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wouldn't store an LC at a higher temp myself. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me. OP said he was using spores as inoculate also. So honestly, I feel like a lower temp. would be safer. I think Supa may have been speaking in terms of the OP; not how warm a substrate is in a tub.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
#23441212 - 07/14/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have tried to avoid this hot mess but I do find it odd that the reason I would recommend temps in the 70's has yet to be touched on. It has actually little to do with the preferred colonization temps of cubes and more to do with the fact that most contams seem to do better once the mercury hits 80 and above.
I see a lot of talk about cubes natural preferences but, we are not growing in nature. In nature as bodhi said they occupy a niche. Indoors they no longer have the protection afforded them from contams and thus higher temps have greater drawbacks. Avoiding bacterial blooms or keeping white molds from exploding has nothing to do with the preferred temps that cubes have and everything to do with what they can tolerate.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23441223 - 07/14/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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one example is that cubes prefer an acidic substrate. Just like pretty much every other mold. Yet 50/50+ is adjusted to pH of 8.5 because cubensis can tolerate it, and no other molds can germinate on it
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mad Season]
#23441241 - 07/14/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
one example is that cubes prefer an acidic substrate. Just like pretty much every other mold. Yet 50/50+ is adjusted to pH of 8.5 because cubensis can tolerate it, and no other molds can germinate on it
Yep that's also a good one. We are not replicating nature here.
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