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OfflineMr.Lahey
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Honey Water LC, can I use this soon?
    #23431758 - 07/11/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Hello everyone how goes today? Long time no see for the shroomery for me but I'm back for some opinions on my recent LC. You'll see below the attached pictures are from 1 jar of 12 which I inoculated approx 15 days days ago.

1/2 pint canning jars
1tsp of honey per jar of water
PC'd @ 15 psi for approx 20 min
Nocc'd up with 2mL or so of spores
Stored in dark around 70F due to incubator being out of commission
1/4 inch breather holes covered with medical tape

I'm aware my honey to water ratio has room to change, aware the PC'ing was a little excessive and probably caused some caramelization, and am also aware that they should be incubated at a higher temp. Any opinions on my use of medical tape over my breather hole is dually appreciated, my question however is whether or not this jar is ready to try to suck some into a syringe. It is the furthest along of all of the jars by a long shot, the others are lagging behind growing slowly.



Apologies for the low quality pictures, was difficult to get a good representation of the white in there due to the solution being so amber looking. I spun the jar and got the big clump broken up and spinning then just took pics as the little pieces were all whipping by. Any and all speculations are greatly appreciated, thanks again!:smirk:


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OfflineMycologist217
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mr.Lahey]
    #23431803 - 07/11/16 11:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Use it....the lid is not very sophisticated and probably requires a lot of effort to keep your filters dry.

If you look I. My signature I have a tek on water honey LC's with a custom lid build. Good luck...hopes it clean!


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OfflineMr.Lahey
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mycologist217]
    #23431842 - 07/11/16 11:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I'll try and get some into a syringe and bump the thread if I get any results on some rye jars, thanks!


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mycologist217]
    #23431884 - 07/11/16 11:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mycologist217 said:
Use it....the lid is not very sophisticated and probably requires a lot of effort to keep your filters dry.

If you look I. My signature I have a tek on water honey LC's with a custom lid build. Good luck...hopes it clean!





I used your LC lid tek last Friday.

Thanks for the tek!


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mr.Lahey]
    #23432007 - 07/11/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Lahey said:
Nocc'd up with 2mL or so of spores






That is the exact reason why I would never use that LC. Spores directly into LC is just about the worst thing you can do, even worse than spores directly to grains. Syringes are aseptic at best and never, ever sterile. Also, less is more when it comes to spores, a couple of drops would have been enough and infinitely better than 2ml of spore solution.

You should be thankful that your incubator isn't working as well. If I am guessing correctly, you seem to think that 80F is the "best" incubating temperature. 80F is way too much and that is based on some really bad info on TMC. Even the author of TMC later admitted that this is wrong information. Having a spore LC (which is inherently bacterial to some degree) sitting in optimal bacterial growth temperatures is a recipe for disaster.

Colonizing in the dark is also old and incorrect info, light is beneficial in every stage of growth.

Goodluck, hopefully you get lucky.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23432074 - 07/11/16 01:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23432133 - 07/11/16 01:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
If I am guessing correctly, you seem to think that 80F is the "best" incubating temperature. 80F is way too much and that is based on some really bad info on TMC. Even the author of TMC later admitted that this is wrong information.



Have you any links about this "really bad info"?


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
    #23432269 - 07/11/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I don't have to link it, it's there for everyone to see on TMC, which can be DLed from the web for free these days.


Quote:

  *I've been saying that for years. My petri dish studies a few years ago showed that cubensis reaches peak linear growth between 75F and 80F, then is flat until 83F, where it starts to slow down. Mycelium at 86F is growing at about 2/3 the speed of mycelium at 80F. In addition, the higher temps tend to stimulate thermophic molds and bacteria. There's LOT'S of good information in TMC, but that 86F figure is one of the errors. When I did it there were ten petri dishes colonizing at each temperature, in separate containers. I went through well over 200 petri dishes of mycelium for no other reason than to determine the temperature that stimulates fastest growth, other factors being equal. That was a far more controlled study than the one reported over 20 years ago. If someone else wants to repeat the experiment, go for it. I consider the matter closed. Paul doesn't even repeat that 86F figure, which someone else sent him. Bottom line was the tubs that had petri dishes between 75F and 81F showed no difference in growth. Below 75F, and above 81F growth slowed down, with a rapid drop in colonization speed below 70F and above 83F. At 86F, a petri dish would be 2/3 colonized, while its sister at 75F would be fully colonized. Rate of growth at 86F was exactly the same as rate of growth at 72F, with fastest growth as said, occurring between 75F and 81F. Note that these tests were for linear growth in the two-dimensional plane of a petri dish. In three-dimensional space such as in grain jars or bulk substrates, the effects of thermogenesis need to be considered, so ambient temps should be lowered slightly to compensate.


Quote:

I have found little to no difference in colonization speeds between 75 and 81F. Growth falls off rapidly at 83F and above, not 87F. That chart above is bogus, period. I have tried dozens of times to duplicate it and it can't be done. It was apparently made by someone who did ONE grow with sloppy note taking, and sent the results to Paul. Growth is much slower in cold temperatures until you hit 69F, where it speeds up quite a bit until about 75F, where it remains 'flat' until 81, then is flat again until 83, where it falls off fast beginning at 84. By 'flat' I mean there is no discernible increase or decrease in rate of growth within those ranges. Jars will colonize as fast at 75F as they will at 80F. I've proved this time and time again with every strain in my collection. Growth also falls off rapidly above 84, and this is why so many new folks have problems with incubators set at 86F, and jars that 'won't colonize'. The figures I give are substrate temperatures, not air temperatures. The temp inside the jar is 1 to 5 degrees higher than the surrounding air, depending on where in the colonization cycle the jar is. The heat produced falls off fast as the jar approaches full colonization. If you live in an igloo, (or near the waterfront) by all means build an incubator, but keep it in the normal room temperature ranges for best results. I see no reason to set one above 80F, and lots of reasons not to. Here's a picture of one of my shelves for colonizing jars. The substrate bags are there because I ran out of room on the other shelf. These are in a room at normal room temperature, and exposed to light nearly all day. I don't even put the pf jars on a top shelf where it's warmer. Of course, I had a good teacher on how to make them up, as everyone will soon know.




It's important to note that when RR talks about replicating that experiment, he did so with petri dishes which create zero heat. Mycelium growing on grains in a glass jar(which is also an insulator) will create it's own heat and keep insulate it pretty well. Incubating a grain jar at 80F will get you a core temp of around 84-85F, which is far more optimal than mid 70's for bacterial growth.

You can see how RR found that mycelium growth is the same from 75-81F while bacteria will be growing more prolifically the more the temp increases. So I ask, if the only difference between a 75F jar and 81F jar is the amount of bacteria it can grow, why would you opt for the latter when mycelium growth will be the same?

Sure, an LC will not generate the same amount of heat a grain jar will but why would you choose to promote more bacterial growth by incubating at 80F when you can incubate at 75f, get the same mycelium growth speed and promote less bacteria? Seems like a no-brainer to me.


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23432429 - 07/11/16 03:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
I don't have to link it, it's there for everyone to see on TMC, which can be DLed from the web for free these days.



Pretty sure its still illegal to download, but yeah its out there. I have the book and the download. I have not seen him explicitly say to incubate at 80F in it, if you can find it let me know. The usual figure is 86F, which is also in correct, it is commonly said he recommended incubating at 86F.

In this old thread RR thankfully admitted this was not the case. He was often the one inferring it, or mentioning that others were saying it, in effect inferring it.


Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

Dudester67 said:
Stamets (and others) have revised many things since TMC came out in 1983.  And one of those things is colonization temps.



Have you any links to his revised recommendations? Has he actually published new ones for cubensis, or posted it somewhere where it can be verified. I read "Stamets has since said", about a few things, but nothing to back it up most of the time.

The TMC makes it pretty clear that substrate will be higher than the room air temp. Some people seem to think there was some oversight or mistake and think he recommended incubating in rooms at 86F or something. Now some may have read the book and incorrectly came up with that idea, but that is their mistake.

From TMC
Quote:

Substrate Temperature
Since mushroom mycelium grows within the substrate, the substrate temperature must be monitored closely. Thermometers are placed both in the center of the substrate—the hottest region —and in the room's atmosphere. These two thermometers establish a temperature differential. If the hottest point in the substrate is 80 ° F. and the air is 70 ° F. then the temperature of the total mass •must lie within this range.
The optimum temperature for mycelial growth varies depending on the mushroom species.
Agaricus brunnescens grows fastest at 77 °F. whereas Psilocybe cubensis prefers 86 °F.




I am not saying 86F is the ideal substrate temp either, just pointing out that nowhere in TMC does he recommend "leaving jars in an incubator set to 86F", which many think he did. In the growth parameter section he says recommends 84-86F as substrate temp.




Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

JaffyJaffar said:
Check rr notes page for proof



on that RR says
Quote:

Perhaps if you got one of stamets' later works, you'd see he no longer uses that 84F to 86F figure




If anybody knows of the new cubensis growth parameters he published please post them, I only have his other book GGMM and though it mentions cubensis several times there is no temps recommended. I thought he had sort of distanced himself from them or something.

I started a thread years ago about what should be updated in TMC, but nothing much was said
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4378657









Turns out by "works" he means seminars, not published material which I and I guess others would have taken it to mean.






Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

blackout said:

I was looking for the revised ones Stamets has apparently published, I was curious to see if he really did "correct/revise himself" in later publications, as was claimed.




Those who have been to his seminars in the last ten years know this, as well as not to colonize in total darkness, and that 6500K lamps are the new standard.  I doubt he'll publish any more books until copyright laws change to keep pace with all the internet thieves.  It has to be frustrating to see any kid with a scanner posting his books online for free download when he went to the time and expense to put it all together.  I have the same thing with my DVD and won't publish any more until things change.

My research shows no increase in rate of growth for P cubensis at a substrate-mycelium temperature above 83F.  Since none of the noobs(I'm not addressing you blackout) seems to understand there is a difference between ambient air temp and substrate temp, I recommend colonizing at normal room temperature.  When we have new growers struggling to understand the difference between roots and mycelium, I doubt any of them are going to insert a calibrated thermocouple probe into a substrate to measure temperature at the center.

I agree his figure of 86F applies to mycelium temperature and not ambient air temperature. My results show slightly cooler, but that could easily be strain related, a difference in measuring mycelium temp(I use infrared) or variations in thermometers/calibration procedure.
RR




In TMC he gives several warnings about heat generation. RR also used infrared, I personally do not trust this. A good comparison of heat generation would to be have similar uninoculated jars in the same place and compare the temp difference. Then if your infrared is off by 5C it does not matter much. However jars should not be clear as infrared will pick up different readings depending on colour.

You say 80F is "way too much" so what do you think is recommended?

From the RR notes post https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8468503#8468503

Quote:

80-83F is optimal growth incubation temperature but anything past 81-83F increases the chances of thermophilies a.k.a contamination/bacteria. The 86F myth is based on a flawed agar study where heat isn't generated on petri dishes




Quote:

80F is fine for incubating, but don't exceed 81F or growth will slow. 86F is not optimal for cubensis. Stamets quoted somebody else who supposedly put out some petri dishes in various temperatures and reported that to him, so he printed it. I've tried to duplicate that experiment, and after several times, I reached the positive conclusion that mycelium rate of growth is fairly flat from 75F to 83F, with it falling off sharply at 84F and above





In the most recent thread I saw RR commenting about incubation temps he was advising a guy who had an average temp of 73F to find a warmer place.

Quote:

slim_j said:
I set a thermostat up to read the temp inside and outside of the box. Inside the box I am getting upto 78 in the evening but at night this drops to 68...




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Find a warmer part of your house or run a small space heater in the room if necessary.  Your temps aren't that bad but if you can get a few degrees warmer it will speed things up.
RR





Quote:

Supalemonhaze said: Seems like a no-brainer to me.


My main point here was to stop the false perpetuation of bullshit that people claim Stamets said. It's quite ironic when you think about it.


Edited by blackout (07/11/16 03:49 PM)


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
    #23432449 - 07/11/16 03:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

That's because 68 does slow things down a bit.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I've been saying that for years.  My petri dish studies a few years ago showed that cubensis reaches peak linear growth between 75F and 80F, then is flat until 83F, where it starts to slow down.  Mycelium at 86F is growing at about 2/3 the speed of mycelium at 80F.  In addition, the higher temps tend to stimulate thermophic molds and bacteria.

There's LOT'S of good information in TMC, but that 86F figure is one of the errors.
RR



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It was all posted on the other board.  I don't know if the threads are still there or not.  Bottom line was the tubs that had petri dishes between 75F and 81F showed no difference in growth.  Below 75F, and above 81F growth slowed down, with a rapid drop in colonization speed below 70F and above 83F.  At 86F, a petri dish would be 2/3 colonized, while its sister at 75F would be fully colonized.  Rate of growth at 86F was exactly the same as rate of growth at 72F, with fastest growth as said, occurring between 75F and 81F.

Note that these tests were for linear growth in the two dimensional plane of a petri dish.  In three dimensonal space such as in grain jars or bulk substrates, the effects of thermogenesis need to be considered, so ambient temps should be lowered slightly to compensate.
RR




80, especially with monotubs just begs for cobweb and/or trich.


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23432477 - 07/11/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
That's because 68 does slow things down a bit.



here is the thread
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20057673#20057673

the guy had them wrapped in bubble wrapped, if the temp in the room dropped to 68F you would not expect the jars to drop that much. It would buffer any temp drop.

I currently have unincoulated jars and inoculated growing jars in the same incubator of the same grain. I will check to see the temp difference with a fluke infrared thermometer, which I rarely use as I do not trust it, but at least temp difference should show up. I have often said I think the heat generation people think/estimate there is has been greatly exaggerated. I have asked before if people actually did it and got no replies. I do believe the heat rise in massive commercial ops is significant, but not for small glass jars.


Quote:

Mad Season said:
80, especially with monotubs just begs for cobweb and/or trich.



I was not personally recommending any temp in this thread, simply calling out the bullshit I continually see.


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
    #23432491 - 07/11/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Probably right it isn't that much of a temp difference for jars, but for bulk it is definitely much warmer inside the tub. If the same growth happens at 75F ambient temperature for petri dishes, and there's less of a chance to have thermophilic molds and bacteria, it makes more sense to stay at the lower end of the scale than the higher end. I've definitely had more cobweb when it's warmer, and my room never hits 80F.


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23432634 - 07/11/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Infrared will only read the surface temp, not core Temps. Def won't shoot through glass either.


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23433916 - 07/12/16 02:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, my infrared therm sucks balls and it's a good quality item.

As for my personal "recommended" temperature, I wouldn't go above 75F with anything if I can help it. LCs, tubs, grain jars, etc. This is not always possible where I live, currents temps atm are 86F in my grow room so I will make do with what nature provides for the most part. My point is that if your room temp is in the 70's, incubating is going to cause more harm than good. In the coldest month in winter, I get a room temp of 60F and I don't even use an incubator anymore. The difference I had this winter past from incubated jars (75F) and unincubated jars (60-65F) was only around 2-3 days, which IMO, isn't even worth the energy you would be wasting. Newer growers should be even more careful about what temp they are incubating at simply because there are a lot of things which he might not know. Sterile tek and recognising bacteria are among the two things which will be hardest to a newer grower.

I would very much prefer to make it as hard as possible for bacteria to grow rather than to shave off a couple days in colonization.

It's true, in TMC stamets does say that the best incubating temp is 86F but as you mentioned, he also says to allow a few degrees for the generated heat. It is quite common, especially in older threads and teks in the main site to find the recommended incubating temp to be 86-~5=81F. That is where the main misinformation comes from in truth, people dipping their toe in mushroom cultivation will generally not start out by reading a book, they will search on the internet and it's pretty easy for them to land on the older stuff simply because they don't know better.

I've seen the comments by RR saying that stamets revised his info in seminars and honestly, I don't have any reason to doubt him, especially since most (if not all) of what I experience is in line with what he says.


Edited by Supalemonhaze (07/12/16 02:41 AM)


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23437852 - 07/13/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
It's true, in TMC stamets does say that the best incubating temp is 86F



Not he does not, not sure if you forgot to put "not" in there or if you really still believe he said that.

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:I've seen the comments by RR saying that stamets revised his info in seminars



RR seemed to think he recommended to incubate at 86F too, he infers that in many threads. The only time I saw him say otherwise was when I questioned him specifically about it. He also did not say the temp Stamets changed to, not that he ever gave an incubation temp in the first place.

RR was saying "80F is fine for incubating"
You were saying "incubating temperature. 80F is way too much"


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
    #23437968 - 07/13/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

And I stand by it. 80 has ZERO advantages over 75F, mycelium grows the same, bacteria grows more.

Actually, he does say 86F is optimal in TMC.


:cookiemonster:                                  :elmo:

Unless you're gonna argue that throwing a chart is not the same as "saying". IMO, it's pretty clear that at the time, Stamets was indeed recommending 86F for colonization.

What I don't get, is the point in your argument. So in your opinion, 80F is the best temp to store a grain jar? You have been doing this long enough to know how active bacteria is at those temps as well as that there is basically no difference in mycelial growth speed.

As I said before, the difference I have had between low 60's and 75F was 2-3 days. RR also ran through hundreds of petris to test this out for himself and he came to the conclusion that between 75-81, speed of mycelial grow is the the same. Even if that was not true, the difference there would be between 75F and 81F in terms of speed is not worth the extra bacteria which will devour your yield.

You said that you're calling out the bullshit, I seem to be doing the same.

Edit:

For the sake of being thorough, 80 is fine if you can't help it. Hell, I'm rocking 88F atm (VS the 86F of yesterday). But incubating jars at 80F when you have a room temp in the 70's is just silly.


Edited by Supalemonhaze (07/13/16 02:28 PM)


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23438211 - 07/13/16 04:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
Actually, he does say 86F is optimal in TMC.


:cookiemonster:                                  :elmo:

Unless you're gonna argue that throwing a chart is not the same as "saying". IMO, it's pretty clear that at the time, Stamets was indeed recommending 86F for colonization.



oh dear, oh dear... I already covered this bullshit.


Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
What I don't get, is the point in your argument. So in your opinion, 80F is the best temp to store a grain jar?



Already covered this.


Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
You said that you're calling out the bullshit, I seem to be doing the same.



You are in a hole and still digging, trying to save face at being called out. I imagine most reading this know this. Seems you are trying to make out like I was making points I never made. Not surprising that you read stuff into TMC too.


Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:80 is fine if you can't help it.



Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
80F is way too much and that is based on some really bad info on TMC.



:rolleyes:


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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: blackout]
    #23439691 - 07/14/16 12:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Why am I digging a hole, exactly? Seems to me like you're just avoiding my question, to which you said "already covered this".

Why do you think that someone should go out of his way to get temps to 80-85F when his room temp is at an optimal of 70's?

Most of your replies make me suspect that you are drunk. First you said that stamets doesn't say 86F in his book, I show you where he said that and you say:

Quote:

oh dear, oh dear... I already covered this bullshit.




I mean, seriously? :justkillmenow:

And then there's this:

Quote:

simply calling out the bullshit I continually see.




Quote:

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
You said that you're calling out the bullshit, I seem to be doing the same.



You are in a hole and still digging, trying to save face at being called out. I imagine most reading this know this. Seems you are trying to make out like I was making points I never made. Not surprising that you read stuff into TMC too.





:thatsinteresting:

As for this:

Quote:

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:80 is fine if you can't help it.



Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
80F is way too much and that is based on some really bad info on TMC.



:rolleyes:




Let me quote a little sumtin sumtin I said earlier on.

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
This is not always possible where I live, currents temps atm are 86F in my grow room so I will make do with what nature provides for the most part.




I also find it interesting that you chose to edit out "for the sake of being thorough" from that quote. But yeah, I'm the one just trying to dig myself out, aren't I? :facepalm: You know exactly what my point is, you're just trying to win an argument you already lost.

So seriously, tell us, oh wise one. Why, oh why should I go out of my way to incubate jars IF I have a room temp of 75F? Does it magically make it go faster? Not even gonna bother if you ignore it this time.

Edit:

Also, people are indeed noticing the fails in this thread but they sure as shit aren't mine.

Quote:

blackout said:

You are in a hole and still digging, trying to save face at being called out. I imagine most reading this know this.




The following was said in a journal thread I frequent.

Quote:

**** said:
jeebus, what an RRorama blackout caused in that honey water LC thread.
I still dont get what he's getting at :confused2:




:thumbup:


Edited by Supalemonhaze (07/14/16 12:47 AM)


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Supalemonhaze] * 1
    #23439719 - 07/14/16 12:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Honey Water LC, can I use this soon? [Re: Inocuole]
    #23439740 - 07/14/16 01:00 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Dude it's blackout... It's unfortunate he does have some contributions that earn him his place because other than that :facepalm:


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