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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Justice
    #23430936 - 07/11/16 12:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

In the US, protesters are calling for "justice" for victims of racial discrimination. 5 policemen were killed recently related
to racial tension between African Americans and white cops, with the accusation white cops discriminate against blacks.

Often people call for "justice" when "evil" or "bad" people harm or kill others. What is "justice", from a
psychological perspective? From the definition, "justice" involves fairness, righteousness, and punishment. 

It's beneficial when violent people are locked up and can't repeat their harmful acts, but there often seems
to be an underlying motivation of retaliation behind justice. We want punishment.

The call for justice reminds me of the Christian concept of Hell, that there's a price to pay for the sins of the wicked.

"Nobody will escape Judgment Day"

We abhor the possibility evil people might "get away" with their evil deeds unpunished.

Your thoughts?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23431611 - 07/11/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

You're right, the average citizen is nothing if not vindictive.  Revenge is a strong motivation for our actions at times.  For purely expedient purposes, societies must keep criminals locked up primarily for safety and the avoidance of (potentially violent) disruptions.  But in our criminal justice system, revenge is an extra component that is probably more important to people than the purely practical considerations.  Humans can be pretty lowly and base in their thoughts and behaviors much of the time.  Goes without saying, really.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23431824 - 07/11/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
You're right, the average citizen is nothing if not vindictive.  Revenge is a strong motivation for our actions at times.  For purely expedient purposes, societies must keep criminals locked up primarily for safety and the avoidance of (potentially violent) disruptions.  But in our criminal justice system, revenge is an extra component that is probably more important to people than the purely practical considerations.  Humans can be pretty lowly and base in their thoughts and behaviors much of the time.  Goes without saying, really.




Yes, it is amazing what a gap there is between human knowledge and practice. Dolphins etc. are trained purely with positive reinforcement, so it's not just moral teachings saying: "be good". There is plenty of scientific data on the general superiority of positive measures vs. negative ones. Yet much of social action & institutions are punitive.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23432225 - 07/11/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, repeated studies have shown that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.  Yet we have hundreds (if not thousands) on death row, some innocent.  Doesn't make a lot of sense.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23434885 - 07/12/16 12:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes, repeated studies have shown that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.




Because of zombies and reincarnation. :yesnod:


--------------------


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23436404 - 07/12/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Yet much of social action & institutions are punitive.




In the US we refer to our prisons as "correctional facilities"


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23436427 - 07/12/16 10:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Read the " Republic" by Plato the most succinct explanation of what it should be.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23438361 - 07/13/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:

Yet much of social action & institutions are punitive.




In the US we refer to our prisons as "correctional facilities"




Euphemisms abound, apparently many are privately run for profit.

Tribalism is the only 'ism' we are actually wired for,

theocracy, democracy, republics, communism, capitalism, etc. are all stupid.

Dunbar's number explains it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Dunbars+number&t=ha&ia=about


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Offlinetump
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23439788 - 07/14/16 01:38 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I am justice


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23442235 - 07/14/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Dunbar's number explains it . . .





I've never heard of this, and read a bit about it in the links. Interesting.

According to "Dunbar's Number," human beings have enough mental space to keep track of only 150 meaningful relationships.

I've lead a life of mostly solitude until about 4 years ago. I've always viewed people as a burden and a hassle.

In the last 2 years I've made more friends than I've made in the last 30. At first I thought I could only handle a
few people to care about in my life, but as I make more and more friends, I realize that the number of people
who I can fit into my life (and want to) is quite large.

Maybe up to 150!?

Not sure what my point has to do with yours (maybe nothing), but this is what springs to mind.

Tangents are god.         

Whoops, that's a typo.    I meant tangents are good.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23442515 - 07/14/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Glad you found it interesting.
Like your 'former self' I am a 'connoisseur' of solitude.
I enjoy reading material on anthropology, evolution, etc.

It would seem that in many ways humans have made changes in lifestyle,
for which evolution has not adapted them, as our brains are so clever (if not wise), and culture and language so effective that we seem to bypass evolution, which takes what? maybe millions of years for some changes.
They say we see the same sort of thing as regards diet, hence the diabetes 'epidemic'.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23454243 - 07/18/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think retaliation, which is related to punishment, is unique to humans, and a result of the evolution of the ego.

If a lion kills a baby deer, the doe doesn't seek punishment or revenge.

She will exert much effort to defend her baby, but if the baby is killed, she won't lash out.

I'm not saying retaliation and revenge are "bad". Just interestingly unique.


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Offlinepsychobla
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23460264 - 07/20/16 05:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

-


Edited by psychobla (03/23/18 12:28 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Justice [Re: psychobla]
    #23460666 - 07/20/16 08:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

When I am really mad at someone for some transgression, I hate them so much I want to pay for their room & board & utilities, TV, medical attention, education and a nice gym to work out in.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Justice [Re: psychobla]
    #23461200 - 07/20/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psychobla said:
We now live in a global tribe



Oh how I wish this were true! That's my utopia right there.

It seems to me more that we are still a collection of tribes, only we've spread across the globe, shitty tribal wars in tow...


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Justice [Re: psychobla]
    #23462247 - 07/21/16 10:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Global tribe?  There is absolutely nothing unified about the global population.  And tribalism looks very much different than what one finds in modern countries.  Poor word choice, maybe. :wink:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinepsychobla
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Re: Justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23462685 - 07/21/16 01:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

-


--------------------
A bunch of jokes, with a grain of truth in each.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

What will be, will be. :pipesmoke:


Edited by psychobla (03/23/18 12:29 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23462916 - 07/21/16 03:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:


We abhor the possibility evil people might "get away" with their evil deeds unpunished.

Your thoughts?




another aspect of why we do what we do is 'game theory'. when training animals positive reinforcement is the ticket, not punishment. with people sometimes there must be consequences. even on this board some folks get banned.

game theory was just in the news. a wiki search would probably explain it in more detail, and how it even effects military strategy.

http://www.wired.com/2016/07/poker-theory-explains-ted-cruzs-convention-speech/
• Author: Jason Tanz. Jason Tanz

'How Poker Theory Explains Ted Cruz’s Convention Speech'


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: laughingdog]
    #23463657 - 07/21/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psychobla said:

Human rage has been a useful component of nature. In tribal times it was important to go to war with the bad guys if they were hurting your tribe. Revenge was important so other people knew not to mess with you and your family.




You make some interesting points. I've never considered the adaptive nature of revenge or violence. The more violent a tribe, the less other tribes will attack them. 

Quote:

psychobla said:

We lack the necessary constructs in modern society to process rage in a healthy way.




I think we lack the education about the true nature of rage. I think the rage we see in terrorist acts has deep psychological underpinnings (not mental illness). The origin of neurosis that creates internal conflicts, a false self, and drives rage and other psychological disturbances (from narcissism to depression) has been studied and understood for 100 years, but is not taught or discussed.

In my opinion.  (Just for the record, everything I say is pure speculation.)     


Quote:

laughingdog said:
game theory was just in the news.

http://www.wired.com/2016/07/poker-theory-explains-ted-cruzs-convention-speech/
• Author: Jason Tanz. Jason Tanz

'How Poker Theory Explains Ted Cruz’s Convention Speech'




I'm not familiar with game theory. I just read this article. Wow, that is absolutely fascinating! I love ideas that help us make sense of behavior. I'm going to read it again. That was awesome. Highly recommended.


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23465557 - 07/22/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
In the US, protesters are calling for "justice" for victims of racial discrimination. 5 policemen were killed recently related
to racial tension between African Americans and white cops, with the accusation white cops discriminate against blacks.

Often people call for "justice" when "evil" or "bad" people harm or kill others. What is "justice", from a
psychological perspective? From the definition, "justice" involves fairness, righteousness, and punishment. 

It's beneficial when violent people are locked up and can't repeat their harmful acts, but there often seems
to be an underlying motivation of retaliation behind justice. We want punishment.

The call for justice reminds me of the Christian concept of Hell, that there's a price to pay for the sins of the wicked.

"Nobody will escape Judgment Day"

We abhor the possibility evil people might "get away" with their evil deeds unpunished.

Your thoughts?




Justice is how unalienable rights are protected by government.  If government will not protect them, then the people must enforce the law through their right to alter or abolish.

Philosophically, justice is the social expression of love.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Justice [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23466719 - 07/22/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:


Justice is how unalienable rights are protected by government.  If government will not protect them, then the people must enforce the law through their right to alter or abolish.

Philosophically, justice is the social expression of love.




When you walk, if you go too far to the right, you steer to the right,
when you drive a car, if you go to far to the right, your unconscious mind causes your hands to make micro movements, taking the car slightly to the left, etc., constantly ... likewise small groups of people and families dynamically balance conflicting tendencies  within the group, almost unconsciously, automatically; you can call this justice or love or whatever, but such labeling seems rather anthropomorphic, as the same process occurs in some other animal communities, does it not?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23466905 - 07/22/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:

Justice is how unalienable rights are protected by government.





The concept of "unalienable rights" is like the idea "all men are created equal"

The words sound nice and cozy, but they're a bit of a fantasy based ideal.

Sometimes government supports the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Capital punishment is clearly pure retaliation.   

That government should uphold our "pursuit of happiness" is humorous to me    :laugh:


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23470102 - 07/23/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:

Justice is how unalienable rights are protected by government.





The concept of "unalienable rights" is like the idea "all men are created equal"

The words sound nice and cozy, but they're a bit of a fantasy based ideal.

Sometimes government supports the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Capital punishment is clearly pure retaliation.   

That government should uphold our "pursuit of happiness" is humorous to me    :laugh:




They are ideals that are defined and if people are deprived of them, strife develops.  It is human nature, that's all.  But we cannot give up on the ideals, 'cause then things can go further down the tube.

Acknowledging and agreeing upon the ideal by the masses brings power to the ideals to enforce them.  If we do nothing, we get nothing.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justice [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23471130 - 07/24/16 12:39 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Ideals cultivate dissatisfaction, as reality never matches our ideals.

Ever been to a Rolling Stones concert with 100,000 people shouting, "I CAN'T get NO satisfaction!!!"?

Abandoning our ideals is not about being passive or not enforcing laws.

It's about waking up from our fantasy of wishing life was different.


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Justice [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23471685 - 07/24/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Ideals cultivate dissatisfaction, as reality never matches our ideals.

Ever been to a Rolling Stones concert with 100,000 people shouting, "I CAN'T get NO satisfaction!!!"?

Abandoning our ideals is not about being passive or not enforcing laws.

It's about waking up from our fantasy of wishing life was different.





Generally I agree, but point out that the ideals of the framing documents and constitution were not created by us, they were created for us by predecessors that made life different for us by a great expenditure of effort.

There is a tremendous effort put out by tyrants now to prevent us from unifying around effective legal and peaceful means of securing our rights and freedoms.

See and sign a petition that goes to the heart of creating our power as Lincoln described it, "the people are the rightful masters of the congress and the court".

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/declarator-declare-constitutional-intent

This page has a complete but summarized legal, due process for using the declarations of the petition.

http://algoxy.com/law/lawfulpeacefulrevolution.html


Edited by ChristopherABrown (07/24/16 08:55 AM)


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