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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466154 - 07/22/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: The majority of the disparity between black and white criminality is in relation to nonviolent drug offense (think Rockefeller laws).
No it isn't.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: And youre wrong, there are scores of white gangsters, they just arent in ghettos, and their crimes are far more heinous than selling dime bags or killing someone else whos selling dime bags (like fraudulently crashing the global economy, for instance).
Word games.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: hostileuniverse] 1
#23466159 - 07/22/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: And youre wrong, there are scores of white gangsters, they just arent in ghettos, and their crimes are far more heinous than selling dime bags or killing someone else whos selling dime bags (like fraudulently crashing the global economy, for instance).
Wall Street bankers are worse than killers... 
Would you rather have a gangbanger murder another gangbanger or relive the global recession?
We both know the answer.
Also, theres a pretty standard metric that states for every 1% the unemployment number goes up, 40,000 people die. Economic downturns, especially the one staryed in 2008, have very real consequences.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23466163 - 07/22/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: The majority of the disparity between black and white criminality is in relation to nonviolent drug offense (think Rockefeller laws).
No it isn't.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: And youre wrong, there are scores of white gangsters, they just arent in ghettos, and their crimes are far more heinous than selling dime bags or killing someone else whos selling dime bags (like fraudulently crashing the global economy, for instance).
Word games.
Yes, it is. Blacks and whites use drugs at virtually the same rate, yet blacks are arrested far more than whites for possession and or distribution. Why even argue simple facts like this?
And word games? 
Ok. The nature of white collar crime is a game I guess.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466172 - 07/22/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont have time to elaborate as my lunch break is up, ill chime back in later but in the mean time, this article is a good rundown of what im driving at:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8078586.html
For anyone willing to learn something, this dropped off the last page.
Aristotle said its the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it. Maybe you disagree with me, but why not read the article, since you both clearly fail to grasp my argument.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466180 - 07/22/16 02:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Word games? 
Ok.
Yes, word games. I was talking about gangsters and you brought up white collar criminals as if they are even remotely related. That's a straight up word game attempting to sweep black gangsterism under the rug. We were talking about patrolling neighborhoods. Please inform me where the police should be patrolling in order to bust white collar criminals?
Quote:
The nature of white collar crime is a game I guess.
Wow another word game rears its head. Me calling out your word game doesn't mean I am saying that white collar crimes are a game. You can't just read the word game in my post and apply it to whatever concept you feel like. Nice try though.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 3
#23466197 - 07/22/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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In that case, the word games are your own. "Black gangsterism," a term im assuming youve just coined, isnt being swept under the rug. Youre simply running damage control because you failed to realize crime exists in more places than ghettos and street corners.
White collar crime is still crime. And since the police arent patrolling board rooms like they patrol Queens Bridge, there IS a disparity.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466201 - 07/22/16 02:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Take a look at the failures of the SEC, and tell me any black gangsters have gotten deals that sweet.
The facts are facts. The basics are all in the link. You can deny them if you choose, but you dont get to lecture me about sweeping things under the rug.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466216 - 07/22/16 02:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Aristotle said its the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Done, I'm so glad Aristotle thinks I'm educated.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23466226 - 07/22/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So you read the the article? What are your thoughts on the outlined points? All bullshit?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466248 - 07/22/16 02:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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This isnt a dichotomous argument, by the way. I admitted very early on blacks do commit more crimes, im not trying to give cover to anyone's criminality. But that doesnt mean there isnt a documented bias with at least some police, with prosecutors, with judges, and even jurors.
Theres gray area, as infuriating as some may find that.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466266 - 07/22/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: In that case, the word games are your own.
In which case? Point out my word games as I did yours.
Quote:
"Black gangsterism," a term im assuming youve just coined, isnt being swept under the rug. Youre simply running damage control because you failed to realize crime exists in more places than ghettos and street corners.
Yes, and a wonderful term it is. You were most definitely attempting to downplay the significance of black gangsterism by bringing up the entirely unrelated phenomenon of white collar criminality and making a pointless and bogus comparison between the two.
No shit crime exists elsewhere. If that weren't the case, there would be 0 white crime arrests instead of merely a shit ton less than black crime arrests. Nice strawman.
Quote:
White collar crime is still crime. And since the police arent patrolling board rooms like they patrol Queens Bridge, there IS a disparity.
No shit white collar crime is still a crime. I didn't say it wasn't. Nice strawman. Lol, police patrolling boardrooms. That isn't their job. Also white collar criminals don't go around assaulting and murdering people, so I don't know what you are trying to prove. Arresting more white collar criminals wouldn't affect the violent crime stats.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Take a look at the failures of the SEC, and tell me any black gangsters have gotten deals that sweet.
The SEC are not the police. Take it up with the SEC. This is a totally irrelevant tangent that you only brought up as a smokescreen over the actual issue we were discussing.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23466311 - 07/22/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, im not downplaying anything
Crimes, specifically white collar crime, which os disproportionately committed by whites, is much harder to identify, police, and eventually prosecute. Thank you for finally admitting there are mechanisms that cause the crime rate disparity beyond the inherent criminality of specific races. I accept your apology.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466316 - 07/22/16 02:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: So you read the the article? What are your thoughts on the outlined points? All bullshit?
She already went off the rails in the second paragraph:
Quote:
It is also common to hear the supposedly neutral statement that “black people commit more crimes than white people.” This “fact” is used to justify a belief that black people have a natural criminal propensity, or that a “culture of violence” is to blame for problems faced by black people in America.
Almost no one tries to use the fact that blacks commit more crimes to justify a belief that they have a "natural propensity for crime". Also, there is a culture of violence in black communities, so I don't know why she put that in quotes. Then at the end she claims that stating that black crime is due in part to the culture is racist. 
As for her points:
1. We already covered this. Black neighborhoods are policed more because there is more crime committed there. We agreed on this.
2. and 3. She mentions the fact that lawyers cost money and poor people can't afford them, which is true and obviously plays a role. Yes blacks tend to be poorer and she would obviously attribute this to systemic racism because she's a racist conspiracy theorist.
How about the fact that previous convictions are taken into account in sentencing? Not mentioned at all. We already established that blacks commit more crimes, so it makes sense that they would have more previous convictions and therefore be sentenced more harshly.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466333 - 07/22/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Again, im not downplaying anything
You sure were.
Quote:
Crimes, specifically white collar crime, which os disproportionately committed by whites, is much harder to identify, police, and eventually prosecute.
Yes white collar crimes are disproportionately committed by whites and yes they are harder to identify and prosecute, what is your point? This has basically nothing to do with police.
Quote:
Thank you for finally admitting there are mechanisms that cause the crime rate disparity beyond the inherent criminality of specific races. I accept your apology.

I like how you just ignored when I pointed out that busting more white collar criminals wouldn't change the violent crime stats, you know the ones relevant to the current conversation. Busting more white collar criminals wouldn't have any effect on the race related stats within the white collar criminal stats, because black people aren't even a blip on that radar.
Also nice semi-subtle accusation that I was implicitly claiming that the disparity in crime rates is due to inherent features of blacks thereby proving my point earlier about the love of some liberals in reading that implication in.
So sad.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23466340 - 07/22/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why does it have to be a conspiracy?
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23466345 - 07/22/16 02:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Does the fact that white people disproportionately engage in white collar crime say something about our inherent qualities? Are were just inherently more money hungry? You pointing out the disparity obviously means you are implying this. Why so racist?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466348 - 07/22/16 02:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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And i didnt ignore it, im not arguing violent crime stats. The only specifics ive brought up are drugs and white collar crimes, because they fall on either end of the spectrum.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23466356 - 07/22/16 02:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said: Does the fact that white people disproportionally engage in white collar crime say something about our inherent qualities? Are were just inherently more money hungry? You pointing out the disparity obviously means you are implying this. Why so racist?
When you say inherent are you talking culture or genetic?
I think its clear to most genetics have no effect on criminality. Culture does. But even then, a stockbroker fleecing his customers and a drug dealer cutting his coke are two veins of the same American dream. Get money for yourself.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466369 - 07/22/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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A white suburban drug dealer has everything going for him: no police patrolling his neighborhood, no violent rivals, typically no violent customers, the benefit of the doubt of the court system, and a rich family who can get a lawyer to guarantee that benefit of a doubt.
This right here has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with privilege. And i think its indisputable this plays a role in arrest and prosecution rates, and the numbers corrorobate that thought.
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clock_of_omens
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Re: #Blacklivesmatter is more racist than I thought [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#23466390 - 07/22/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Why does it have to be a conspiracy?
That's what many liberals claim. They pretend that cops are just out to get black people. Either it's a racist conspiracy or it's just "oops we fucked over black people again".
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: And i didnt ignore it, im not arguing violent crime stats. The only specifics ive brought up are drugs and white collar crimes, because they fall on either end of the spectrum.
So, the only specifics you brought up have been smokescreens? The disproportionate drug arrests are merely a byproduct of the increased policing in black neighborhoods because of the actual disproportionate violent crime rates, not because cops just racistly or accidentally arrest more blacks for drug offenses.
White collar crimes are completely irrelevant.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: When you say inherent are you talking culture or genetic?
According to your link, it doesn't matter. Discussing either is racist.
Quote:
I think its clear to most genetics have no effect on criminality. Culture does. But even then, a stockbroker fleecing his customers and a drug dealer cutting his coke are two veins of the same American dream. Get money for yourself.
You can't just abstract out a supposed connection to the "American dream" and call everything equal. There are obvious major differences in the cultures within black gangsterism communities and within white collar criminal communities.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: A white suburban drug dealer has everything going for him: no police patrolling his neighborhood, no violent rivals, typically no violent customers, the benefit of the doubt of the court system, and a rich family who can get a lawyer to guarantee that benefit of a doubt.
This right here has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with privilege. And i think its indisputable this plays a role in arrest and prosecution rates, and the numbers corrorobate that thought.
How does that have nothing to do with culture? Obviously white suburban drug culture is different than black urban drug culture.
"no violent rivals, typically no violent customers"
Hence no violence, hence no need for police to patrol the area as heavily as black urban areas.
How about you compare actual similar situations.
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