Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,831
Random chance?
    #23420939 - 07/07/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

"'Naught happens for nothing, but everything from a ground and of necessity' (Leucippus; see, e.g., Russell).  This is the law of necessity.  Some writers claim to be comfortable with the idea that there is in nature, at its most basic level, an irreducible element of chance.  I, however, find unthinkable the idea that between two possibilities there can be a choice having no basis whatsoever.  Chance is an idea useful for dealing with a world partly unknown to us.  But it has no rational place among the ultimate constituents of nature."  --Henry P. Stapp


Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance?  Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along?  Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos?  Does God "play dice with the universe"?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,415
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 23 minutes
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23421274 - 07/07/16 07:36 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

personally i lean towards the idea that everything is intentional, that there is no chance. that said, i don't subscribe to pre-determinism, i feel it is an on-going co-creative process, and that while God doesn't play dice, individual consciousnesses as offshoots of God make intentional choices moment by moment. :smile:

Charles Eisenstein wrote something interesting about the apparently random movement of photons. He said that it may not be a case of either random chance or some pre-determinism we can't see, but rather that the photons themselves choose their own path out of the possibilities - that they have consciousness and free will :smile: it's a neat idea


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,831
Re: Random chance? [Re: deff] * 1
    #23421313 - 07/07/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I like it.  I think the following quotes by Professor Stapp are particularly apt:

Quote:

"Consciousness can play a nonredundant causal role in the determination of our actions: it can play the very role that we intuitively feel that it plays. Quantum theory allows your mind and your brain to co-author your physical actions."

"Mind is identified with the process of creation.  Everything that exists is created by this process, which consists of a well-ordered sequence of creative acts called events.  Any event is prior to all those that follow it in this sequence, and is subsequent to all those that come before it in this sequence.  Each creative act is a grasping, or prehension, of all that has been created by prior acts in a novel but unified way." 

--Dr. Henry P. Stapp




--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,415
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 23 minutes
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23421342 - 07/07/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

:smile: :thumbup:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23421429 - 07/07/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Do you feel ... events are ... pure chance? ...order or chaos?  Does God "play dice with the universe"?




I wonder on what assumptions  the question depends?

seems like, for starters:

1) that time ‘exists’

2) that time is one directional

3) that the present moment has duration
(else how can anything have stable identity?)

4) that events/objects are somehow interdependent
yet separate?

I think some of these have been questioned, in physics
and some are perhaps not well defined

by contrast in a dream no event causes another
they all have the same cause and are not really separate
this may coorespond metaphoricaly to some Eastern metaphysical views

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,831
Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23421444 - 07/07/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Good points, those are indeed all more or less unsolved mysteries, at least scientifically.  I suppose the discussion so far has made the same assumptions about time that modern science has, which is not necessarily to say they are accurate or the last word.  Your post is quite thought-provoking.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23421588 - 07/07/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

if we divide the question up into the everyday world, our psychological world, and the world of extreme physics we will also get different aspects.

Einstein who didn’t like randomness, himself said time slowed down the faster one goes, I think…and don’t they say time slows as something falls into a black hole?
So I wonder do cause and effect slow down at very high speeds? And what causes time to slow down? I guess they talk of space/time as one field. I wonder do the electrons whirling in their clouds within atoms also slow down as a lump of matter is accelerated? Does acceleration therefore lower the temperature of matter?

It would seem that in the human world the two polarities are both necessary  one of: predictability/order/control and on the other hand: spontainety/surprise/adventure are both necessary for our lives.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23421830 - 07/07/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance?  Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along?  Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos?  Does God "play dice with the universe"?






The strength of forces seems a matter of scale,
Of degree of difference and distance removed.
I'm not sure I can speak to the bottom,
Or how intent might warp the folds
Of this multidimensional tapestry.

I intuit inquiring impulses though,
A base curiosity for naught,
Echoing back while
Broaching the dark.

Perchance intricacy
Emerges,
Unstable,
Teetering
Over
Its
Home.

I see rotting vibrations and resonance
On the long road back to Rome,
Stubbing toes.



:tunnel:



edit:  poetry

Edited by DisoRDeR (07/19/16 03:04 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleremake
Male

Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa Flag
Re: Random chance? [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #23421849 - 07/07/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

What if we "play dice" with ourselves. Every worry we are engulfed in is man made. What if we lived in a timeless universe? Isn't time itself just an idea? What's the only truth known? We exist.

Following the clock kills us faster. Following day and night makes us sleepier...following your moment. Stretches to eternity. Your moment. Our moment. The only moment. Is your place within existence. Which is where you are physically right now relative to everyone else. Nothing inside imagination is happening...yet

Basically. What if awareness of where you are is simple and - your - movements are determined by - you?

You can choose to say no. Not be offended. Not care. Walk outside of emotion and habit.

It still leaves something to reaction,  only action seems to persist.

Observe yourself within your house. Not within time.

Edited by remake (07/08/16 12:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23421911 - 07/07/16 11:26 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It would seem that in the human world the two polarities are both necessary  one of: predictability/order/control and on the other hand: spontainety/surprise/adventure are both necessary for our lives.





"Oh random chance!" just doesn't convey the gravity of getting good head.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Random chance? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23421984 - 07/08/16 12:07 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

laughingdog

&

FranniePilgrim

=

Amazing stuff! Thank you!


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Quasar Praiser


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23422139 - 07/08/16 01:46 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance?  Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along?  Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos?  Does God "play dice with the universe"?




I believe the laws of nature are deterministic in that physical tendencies can be accurately predicted but I also believe everything in nature not influenced by humans happens by chance.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23423190 - 07/08/16 11:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

isn’t the dichotomy illusory?

statistical laws rule probability,

hence profits at casinos.

likewise electrons though said to be evading predictability
( http://phys.org/news/2013-05-precision-quantum-trade-off.html ) do just fine creating stable atoms.

also the concept of randomness is relative. it depends on a limited field. If you take a photo of say a chaotic Jackson pollack painting, and then take multiple copies, and make a tiling, you now have order.

Or take a number that is infinite, like pi, for example, how do we know it is random?, at some point in the infinite eternal future it could begin to repeat. So whether it is actually random is unknown, and the universe is infinite.

The Mandelbrot Set is certainly both infinite and patterned, but can we predict ahead of time what we will find at a particular spot? — or even locate a position in something that is continually changing scale?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,831
Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23423350 - 07/08/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

It is illusory; essentially we don't even really know what we're talking about at a fundamental level.  I think the best we can do is to confine ourselves to the mathematical techniques, and treat aggregate ensembles statistically and (in principle) deterministic systems with continuous functions.  Once one gets outside of these rule-of-thumb definitions it gets a bit foggy.  Perhaps one day we will find a deeper level from which both chance and causality emerge in the special case.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23427174 - 07/09/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

the prime numbers are also somewhere in the middle ground

they occur in pairs frequently, and there is some patterning

but no total predictability

is a dude has some info

called drip divisors

interesting

think maybe on utube

& also website & book

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,253
Last seen: 19 minutes, 8 seconds
Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23427191 - 07/09/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Well the honest dichotomy is between 1 and zero..or off and on..

For example in a role of a dice..the combination of the different numbers all add up the the number shown necessarily..so that is the 1..and all other numbers are off..so to speak..

Thus you can say that the effect and cause of the dice roll is in probabalistic regards a quantum effect of uncertainty..but at the same time understanding the net effect of cause and effect...

so you can still relate the number shown as astrology/numerology..for example..

But in nature..the randomizer..is that things arent necessarily straight perfectly..though they apply on this basis..for example a branch of a tree...does curve and hex in a way that the buds come from certain protruding knots..but the idea of it actually being created..will not likely be perfectly accounted for..and therefore their is an element of chance.. in excellent regards is a usefull terminology for the chance of effects..and the guiding lines that are abstract..but still an honest determining force in the laws of cause and effect..or growth and growth rate naturally!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23427215 - 07/09/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

your posts seem the result of a random verbal generator gone rogue.

the next step might be to actually scramble the spelling of the words as well. That should inhibit some responders.

then you could go on to vary the spacing:

like this: wrhdv    cheen          msbnb sdec nd cicu    mmmsz

then mix in a hint of meaning and some more vowels

worhdv    choeken          mosbanib sodixes nudice circujdic  omommsiz

there are lots of possibilities

you have only just begun to explore

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,253
Last seen: 19 minutes, 8 seconds
Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23427257 - 07/09/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Really like a game of chance..inside and out is the continuum..recently actuated theories..like the excellent comedy that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an element in design, which is an idea about the landscape of time..which is only measurements of what(?) Growth and change..

reverting to old styles..in verdant green..and the blue algea..is in cultures..that are basically..roundish...but the precise measurements will be novel..and therefore kind of random?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23427379 - 07/09/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Really like a game of chance..inside and out is the continuum..recently actuated theories..like the excellent comedy that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an element in design, which is an idea about the landscape of time..which is only measurements of what(?) Growth and change..

reverting to old styles..in verdant green..and the blue algea..is in cultures..that are basically..roundish...but the precise measurements will be novel..and therefore kind of random?




or it could be

Really like a game inside and out is the continuum.. of recently  chance actuated theories..like the excellent design that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an  an idea about the landscape of time and mind..which is only increments of conceptual Growth and change..

reverting to old styles..in verdant algae..is moldy cultures..that are basically..cellular… but multiplying so precise measurements will be variable..and therefore kind of random? or randomly kind? Which is Really like a game. But why knot? Like a like a mind inside and out of time. Then when they words began to crumple two too too you you u senses mealy neurons short snort cirkuit  cut not was ur I thought maybe soon won oh please

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,253
Last seen: 19 minutes, 8 seconds
Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23428138 - 07/10/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Levels of features..are facist regards..in and out of the common stream of thinking..which is the Zeitgeist...so to speak..even Nietzsche Could Philosophise about nothing!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Order or Chaos?
( 1 2 3 all )
DoctorJ 3,506 59 07/11/04 05:08 PM
by Strumpling
* The concept of randomness Rhizoid 2,005 14 07/11/03 07:01 PM
by Strumpling
* Shrooms a random event? infidelGOD 1,512 9 05/17/02 10:05 AM
by Sclorch
* Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction
( 1 2 all )
trendalM 3,390 23 09/09/16 11:56 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Random Teleportation vs. Quantum Teleportation Droz 938 8 12/07/03 12:36 AM
by Shroomism
* the beauty of randomness kaiowas 981 6 05/13/04 06:12 AM
by GazzBut
* The fourteen precepts of the order of interbeing ChubbSubb 569 2 09/03/02 11:43 AM
by Adamist
* Random Acts of Kindness
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 3,898 43 08/05/02 03:20 PM
by DasKomet

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,891 topic views. 1 members, 8 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.