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Invisibleairclay
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Dallas shootings * 3
    #23423001 - 07/08/16 10:03 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Protests-in-Dallas-Over-Alton-Sterling-Death-385784431.html
Quote:

Five officers are dead — four Dallas police officers and one Dallas Area Rapid Transit officer — after police say two snipers ambushed and opened fire on police officers at the end of a peaceful protest against nationwide officer-involved shootings Thursday night.




I’m feeling a lot this morning. (as is prob visible in my posts)

I don’t know how to reconcile my own morality with my outrage. Over and over I’m reading that violence is not the answer. I’m reading. I’m agreeing. I’m full of remorse for innocent lives lost
(repeat ad nauseam)

I am also reminded that there are free men who are not innocent. There are men with weapons upholding a different kind of morality without consequences

When a police force operates outside of the law they are sworn to uphold, are we surprised if the public reaction is lawlessness?

Will police continue to stand in solidarity with murderers, if their own lives are in danger for it?
We should be able to have a harsh conversation about police brutality and resistance without condoning the actions of the shooters

We are all responsible

No justice = No peace


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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OfflineMaroon
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Registered: 08/25/15
Posts: 1,897
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423158 - 07/08/16 10:56 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Anyone notice how fast the media solves these "Terror attacks" before any due process or actual objective analyzation. Seems like they are reading off a script at the rate they are proving things that take many years in trial


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UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423162 - 07/08/16 10:56 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Do you know what would help?  When the President of the United States doesn't go on TV to stir the pot and incite people based on his prejudgments of the situation!

Did he ever apologize for prejudging the Zimmerman case based on racial bigotry?  Nope.

Did he ever apologize for prejudging the Michael Brown case based on racial bigotry? Nope.

He has blood on his hands be claiming some innocent black  was killed by a white person because of racism, in both cases he was WRONG!

Now, to have a honest discussion about police brutality and abuse of power, we need to make it non-racial based to have any credibility. White people are ALSO victims of police brutality, they are murdered by the police even more than blacks.

If you and your BLM mates want to make this a black vs white police issue, you're going to remain the big losers you currently are in the political world. Because at the end of the day, BLM isn't concerned about black lives, they're only concerned about protesting for political show.


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OfflineMaroon
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Posts: 1,897
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23423197 - 07/08/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

My question is how does the media solve these things nearly instantaneous as if they are resign from a script. When these details need due process and take many many months of objective analyzation.

Reporting "facts" and solving crimes moments after they happen are not the jobs of reporters.

So how are they now outpacing the judicial system exponentially now on these highly politicized and often linked to gun legislation after each one of these suspected false
Flag events (used to pass unpopular laws)


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UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 21 minutes
Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Maroon]
    #23423251 - 07/08/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
My question is how does the media solve these things nearly instantaneous as if they are resign from a script. When these details need due process and take many many months of objective analyzation.

Reporting "facts" and solving crimes moments after they happen are not the jobs of reporters.

So how are they now outpacing the judicial system exponentially now on these highly politicized and often linked to gun legislation after each one of these suspected false
Flag events (used to pass unpopular laws)




It's a quick rush to judgment for the narrative they want to create, if one was to look back at the Martin and Brown cases in the media if would be laughable, it was full of lies and misinformation.

The retards in the BLM group listen to that crap and buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Most don't know the facts and details of the case, the media wants to stir the pot.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23423287 - 07/08/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The retards in the BLM group listen to that crap and buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Most don't know the facts and details of the case, the media wants to stir the pot.



Can you let us know what it is the media said about this latest shooting that is "crap", or that is "stirring the pot"???  Thanks.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineMaroon
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Registered: 08/25/15
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23423316 - 07/08/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So how can people claiming to be credible on here cough cough Enlil who just regurgitate the known misinfo and disinfo the media lies to us about as being more credible then independent objective thinkers


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 21 minutes
Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23423355 - 07/08/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
The retards in the BLM group listen to that crap and buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Most don't know the facts and details of the case, the media wants to stir the pot.



Can you let us know what it is the media said about this latest shooting that is "crap", or that is "stirring the pot"???  Thanks.




Hmm, how about jumping to a conclusion even before an investigation.  Here's the governor playing mind reader. :facepalm: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/

The Minnesota incident may very well be a case of police killing, but lets wait for all of the facts, doesn't that sound reasonable? 

The Louisiana incident may not be police misconduct at all, when you physically fight the police, you're usually  always in the wrong (especially when you have an illegal gun), either way people should wait for an investigation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/06/video-captures-white-baton-rouge-police-officer-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/

The title kind of says it all, "outrage".  How can anyone have "outrage" until the facts come out?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Maroon]
    #23423364 - 07/08/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
So how can people claiming to be credible on here cough cough Enlil who just regurgitate the known misinfo and disinfo the media lies to us about as being more credible then independent objective thinkers



The only thing you know about the shooting is what the media told you.  Being an independent objective thinker is great, but it doesn't mean you can make up your own facts about the case.

I still want to know what it is the media said about the Dallas shooting that is "crap", or that is "stirring the pot"...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23423370 - 07/08/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you let us know what it is the media said about this latest shooting that is "crap", or that is "stirring the pot"???  Thanks.




Hmm, how about jumping to a conclusion even before an investigation.  Here's the governor playing mind reader. :facepalm: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/

The Minnesota incident may very well be a case of police killing, but lets wait for all of the facts, doesn't that sound reasonable? 

The Louisiana incident may not be police misconduct at all, when you physically fight the police, you're usually  always in the wrong (especially when you have an illegal gun), either way people should wait for an investigation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/06/video-captures-white-baton-rouge-police-officer-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/

The title kind of says it all, "outrage".  How can anyone have "outrage" until the facts come out?



Was any of that about the Dallas shooting?  That's what I asked about.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23423415 - 07/08/16 12:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

it's like I'm trying to explain what a cube is to qman but, he constantly demands the square on front is all that exists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dont-blame-black-lives-matter-for-the-deaths-of-dallas-cops_us_577f9409e4b01edea78d6514

Quote:

Five cops were killed on Thursday night at a Black Lives Matter rally in Dallas, Texas by snipers who targeted officers in an “ambush-style” attack. Seven other cops were shot as were two civilians, according to the Associated Press. One suspect died in a standoff with police, and three other suspects are in police custody.

Like clockwork, some people immediately and unfairly laid blame on the Black Lives Matter movement Thursday night, suggesting that the organization is in some way responsible for the cop killings. That is not only dangerously misguided but also entirely untrue.

Friday morning during a press conference, Dallas Police Chief David Brown said:

The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. He was upset at white people. He wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.

The suspect stated that we will eventually find the IEDs. The suspect stated he was not affiliated within groups and he stated that he did this alone. The suspect said other things that are part of this investigation so that we can make sure that everyone associated with this tragic event is brought to justice.
This statement will undoubtedly add fuel to the fire, and racist America will insist that the horrid actions of one shooter is reflective of an entire race, or in this case, a movement that aims to protect an entire race. But the only thing that this tragedy proves, once again, is that one angry person with easy access to guns can incite horror. Mass shootings in this country are overwhelmingly committed by white men, and yet, have you ever heard someone blame the entire white race for one white person’s crimes?

The sniper’s attacks were deliberate and his actions despicable, but they are in no way reflective of or represented by the Black Lives Matter movement. BLM sent a tweet on Thursday night that reinforced this message:

#BlackLivesMatter advocates dignity, justice and freedom. Not murder.

— Black Lives Matter (@Blklivesmatter) July 8, 2016
Prior to the shooting, the protest on the streets of Dallas was peaceful and controlled. It was led by protesters who spoke out against the police killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile. The deaths of these black men, which happened on consecutive days, catalyzed outrage and prompted protests in cities across the country. However, just because the movement aims to end police violence against black lives does NOT mean it encourages violence against police by black people. Black Lives Matter has never, ever insinuated that other lives don’t. And dismissing the movement’s real agenda ignores the torment and terror protesters faced Thursday night, too.

The snipers’ motivations were evidently fueled by hate and their actions are certainly condemned by the movement. Black Lives Matter is a nationwide organization that aims to affirm “black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.” It promotes engagement and empathy through peaceful demonstrations and other powerful tactics that make clear that violence is in no way tolerated.

This message of condemnation against cop killings has been repeated countless times, especially during past isolated shootings of police officers by black civilians. In December 2014, when Ismaaiyl Abdulah Brinsley ― a black man from Maryland ― fatally shot NYPD officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos as revenge for Michael Brown and Eric Garner’s deaths, the founders of the Black Lives Matter movement immediately issued a statement that disparaged Brinsley’s actions. They told HuffPost that “an eye for an eye is not our vision of justice.”

Opal Tometi, one of the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter movement, later wrote a blog for HuffPost in response to the same tragic shooting, setting the record straight and pushing back against the dangerous narrative being shaped around the movement’s motivations.

“This is a challenging moment, but we must maintain the integrity of our message and moral movement,” Tometi wrote. “We still have the moral high ground, and we cannot allow for it to be undermined.”

The shooting in Dallas, which was the deadliest day for police since 9/11, is horrific in every way. Lives were lost and chaos and pain were experienced yet again during an already tragic week. Perhaps what makes the tragedy even more unbearable is that, during the protest, the Dallas Police Department shared pictures on Twitter showing police officers posing with protesters. It was a message from the department expressing solidarity and an understanding of the community’s concerns. DPD has openly welcomed protests and shown a level of engagement with the community in ways that is not always seen among other police departments. 

Men, women, boys & girls gathered @ Belo Garden Park for the demonstration re: recent police involved shootings. pic.twitter.com/gah2Q3tqG6

— Dallas Police Depart (@DallasPD) July 8, 2016
We all mourn the deaths of the officers who were killed on Thursday. Like Sterling and Castile, they did not deserve to die. But, even as we grieve, people should be cautioned not to spread misconceptions about the movement and allege any connections of it to the shooting in Dallas.

Just because BLM denounces police killings of black people doesn’t mean members of the movement don’t care about the unjust death of police. You can (and should) care about black lives and care about cops at the same time.

Let’s be clear: Black Lives Matter is an organization that spreads love, not hate ― and it condemns violence altogether. We should focus our energy on remembering those who have lost their lives to gun violence, both this week and every other. We must destroy vicious ideology that claims the Dallas shooting promotes a “race war” in any way. We must not compromise the integrity of a movement that deserves respect. We must figure out how to use our anger as fuel and identify actionable ways to bring about peace in a world where chaos seems to dominate. We must stand together in solidarity, even (and especially) as we mourn, to help spread unity and bring about peace.

These are tragic times upon us. The only way we’ll heal is by understanding and sharing the honest truth.




--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23423424 - 07/08/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you let us know what it is the media said about this latest shooting that is "crap", or that is "stirring the pot"???  Thanks.




Hmm, how about jumping to a conclusion even before an investigation.  Here's the governor playing mind reader. :facepalm: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/07/minn-cop-fatally-shoots-man-during-traffic-stop-aftermath-broadcast-on-facebook/

The Minnesota incident may very well be a case of police killing, but lets wait for all of the facts, doesn't that sound reasonable? 

The Louisiana incident may not be police misconduct at all, when you physically fight the police, you're usually  always in the wrong (especially when you have an illegal gun), either way people should wait for an investigation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/06/video-captures-white-baton-rouge-police-officer-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/

The title kind of says it all, "outrage".  How can anyone have "outrage" until the facts come out?



Was any of that about the Dallas shooting?  That's what I asked about.




Wasn't the Dallas shooting the result of the two recent cop shootings of black men?


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23423442 - 07/08/16 12:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

it was the result of constantly being inundated with news of people you identify with being the targets of suspect procedural handling from the courts down to the beat cops coupled with massive inaction and disregard of it's existence

(I used "people you identify w" to keep it race ambiguous and cover all police brutality)


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423459 - 07/08/16 12:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I never claimed BLM had any responsibility for the Dallas shooting.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23423492 - 07/08/16 12:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The article was more-so posted to spearhead any ignorance in advance.

But you are the one who mentioned BLM and def inferred blame is to be had for the situation in general, which has led to this shooting.

Quote:

qman said:
Do you know what would help?  When the President of the United States doesn't go on TV to stir the pot and incite people based on his prejudgments of the situation!

He has blood on his hands be claiming some innocent black  was killed by a white person because of racism, in both cases he was WRONG!

Now, to have a honest discussion about police brutality and abuse of power, we need to make it non-racial based to have any credibility. White people are ALSO victims of police brutality, they are murdered by the police even more than blacks.

If you and your BLM mates want to make this a black vs white police issue, you're going to remain the big losers you currently are in the political world. Because at the end of the day, BLM isn't concerned about black lives, they're only concerned about protesting for political show.





Quote:

The retards in the BLM group listen to that crap and buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Most don't know the facts and details of the case, the media wants to stir the pot.





--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423503 - 07/08/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

http://justice.gawker.com/police-reform-is-impossible-in-america-1683262551

Quote:

In recent weeks, the White House has reaffirmed its commitment to strengthening "community policing" around the country. The U.S. Conference of Mayors has coalesced around the same theme, releasing a report days ago with recommendations for community policing measures to be adopted nationally. The suggestions for building better "relationships" and boosting "trust" are comprehensive but, for a national crisis brought on by the killing of unarmed black people, there's one thing conspicuously absent from the public policy solutions: the acknowledgement of racism.

The New Testament says that faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Well, in the absence of data to support excessive policing and police brutality in communities of color, it appears that America has just stepped out on faith.

Rates of violent crime are down and have been falling sharply for more than 20 years. In fact, since the early 90s, the national homicide rate has fallen by 51 percent, forcible rapes have declined by 35 percent, robberies have decreased by 56 percent and the rate of aggravated assault has been cut by 45 percent. And black Americans have contributed to the decline. For blacks, rates of robbery and serious property offenses are the lowest they've been in more than 40 years. Murder, rape, assault, domestic violence—all down.

America is safer than it was 20 years ago. Really. Still, white Americans (and many black Americans, for that matter) believe there's more violent crime than there actually is, and that blacks are largely responsible for it.

In fact, nearly half of white Americans polled believe that violent crime has increased in the last 20 years. Another 13 percent believe that it's stayed the same. Less than a quarter of whites realize there are less violent crimes today than there were in the 90s when the crack epidemic and gang violence were at their height. Even more, whites overestimate just how much blacks are involved in "serious street crime" and, on average, believe that black people commit a larger proportion of crime than whites do. According to a 2012 study by researchers at the University at Albany, whites significantly overestimate the share of armed robberies, break-ins and drug crimes committed by black people.

So, this is how we get to Rudy Giuliani, a man once in charge of the nation's largest police force, insisting that, "White police officers wouldn't be [in black neighborhoods] if [blacks] weren't killing each other" as a justification for the killings of unarmed black people. This is how we get Stop and Frisk policies, Tamir Rice shot dead in a park, John Crawford shot dead in Wal-Mart, Akai Gurley shot dead in a dark stairwell, Miriam Carey shot dead outside the White House (the list goes on and on.) And this is also how we get a grand jury reviewing video of Eric Garner choked to death and seeing no evidence of a crime. Each is an example of racist policing based on the assumption of threat.

In a country that has identified black people as its criminal element, public safety (and perceived security) is more tied to the suppression of blacks than it is to the suppression of crime. And as long as the public insists on its myth of black criminality—almost as an article of faith—police practices will be impossible to reform.

In the summer of 1963, Boston public television aired "The Negro and the American Promise," an hour-long examination of racial tension in America featuring interviews with Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X and James Baldwin conducted by renowned psychologist Kenneth Clark. During his segment, Baldwin delivered a blistering indictment of the white American psyche that is essential to untangle the myth of black criminality and its serviceability to American identity and feelings of security.

In a country that has identified black people as its criminal element, public safety (and perceived security) is more tied to the suppression of blacks than it is to the suppression of crime. And as long as the public insists on its myth of black criminality—almost as an article of faith—police practices will be impossible to reform.

"What white people have to do," Baldwin offers, "is try and find out in their own hearts why it was necessary to have a Nigger in the first place...If I'm not a Nigger here and you invented him, you, the white people, invented him, then you've got to find out why. And the future of the country depends on that."

"Nigger" as used by Baldwin is, of course, more than an epithet. It is arguably the very articulation of racism in this country. Its utterance summons a phantom that is as essential to American identity as the American Dream and the Pursuit of Happiness. So, when Baldwin talks about the creation of the Nigger, he's speaking to more than the word. He is assigning responsibility for a construct that has permeated every single American institution, one essential to the nation's founding and development.

Willie Horton, for example, was not the Nigger but it was conjured out of his cold stare, from OJ's courtroom smirk and even seen by some in the form of our "contemptuous" attorney general. Darren Wilson invoked the Nigger quite adeptly in his testimony before a grand jury to convince them it was necessary to shoot an unarmed Michael Brown at least six times.

"He looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that's how angry he looked," said Wilson about the moments before he fired the first bullet into Brown.

"At this point," Wilson said, "it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I'm shooting at him. And the face he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I wasn't even anything in his way."

More bullets. Then the final shot into Brown's head from 148 feet away.

"And then when it went into him, the demeanor on his face went blank, the aggression was gone, it was gone, I mean, I knew he stopped, the threat was stopped," said Wilson.

A grand jury believed it. A great many Americans find the story believable—most without ever even having to hear it from Wilson's lips or read the transcript.

So, why does America need such a narrative? The question is something of a psychoanalytic approach to our country's policing problem but one that's been gaining traction in the media as of late. Ta-Nehisi Coates gestured toward it in his column for The Atlantic weeks ago. He wrote:

"...And knowing that identity is not simply defined by what we are, but what we are not, can it be that our police help give us identity, by branding one class of people as miscreants, outsiders, and thugs, and thus establishing some other class as upstanding, as citizens, as Americans? Does the feeling of being besieged serve some actual purpose?"
I am not white. The Nigger has never been of any use to me so, unfortunately, I don't think the question is mine to answer. I do have my theories, though. I imagine, like Coates seems to, that identifying blacks as this country's criminals helps white Americans dismiss their own criminal activity as incidental (teenage drug use, insider trading, mass shootings, etc). But I think it also must help to organize their fear in an uncertain world. Like "Goldstein" in Orwell's 1984, perhaps the Nigger gives white Americans something specific to fear so they don't fear everything—including themselves and each other.

Ultimately, the contrast between the reality of black crime and this nation's perception of it reveals just how invested in the myth of the Nigger America actually is. And, as protesters push forward and leaders federal and local circle around "community policing" as reform, Baldwin's question will only become more urgent. White Americans of good conscience will have to confront their boogeyman head on. Because the truth is that there can be no "community policing" in black communities without engaging the community, without engaging black people and our distortion in the American imagination.

Donovan X. Ramsey is a multimedia journalist whose work puts an emphasis on race and class. Donovan has written for outlets including MSNBC, Ebony, and TheGrio, among others. He's currently a Demos Emerging Voices fellow.




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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423521 - 07/08/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/racial_bias_in_criminal_justice_whites_don_t_want_to_reform_laws_that_harm.html

Quote:

When I want to emphasize a point on criminal justice reform, I lead with the data. There are huge racial gaps in arrests, convictions, and sentences. I’m shocked by the statistics and assume that’s also true of readers.

But according to a new study from Stanford University psychologists Rebecca C. Hetey and Jennifer L. Eberhardt, the stats-first approach to issues of race and incarceration isn’t effective—in fact, it’s potentially counterproductive.

Hetey and Eberhardt conducted two experiments, one in San Francisco and one in New York City. In the former, a white female researcher recruited 62 white voters from a train station to watch a video that flashed 80 mug shots of black and white male inmates.

Here’s where it gets interesting.

Unbeknownst to the participants, Hetey and Eberhardt had “manipulated the ratio of black to white inmates, to portray racial disparities in the prison population as more or less extreme.” Some participants saw a video in which 25 percent of the photos were of black inmates, approximating the actual distribution of inmates in California prisons, while others saw a video in which 45 percent of photos were black inmates.

After viewing the mug shots, participants were informed about California’s “three-strikes” law—which mandates harsh sentences on habitual offenders with three or more convictions—and asked to rate it on a scale of 1 (“not punitive enough”) to 7 (“too punitive”). Then participants were shown a petition to amend the law to make it less harsh, which they could sign if they wanted.

The results were staggering. More than half of the participants who viewed the “less-black” photographs agreed to sign the petition. But of those who viewed the “more-black” photographs, less than 28 percent agreed to sign. And punitiveness had nothing to do with it. The outcome was as true for participants who said the law was too harsh as it was for those who said it wasn’t harsh enough.

In which case, Hetey and Eberhardt hypothesized, there must be another explanation. Hence the New York City experiment, which tested the role of fear in driving support for harsh law enforcement policies. There, they found similar results using a variation on the San Francisco test.

Instead of photos, researchers gave demographic statistics on New York state’s inmates to a sampling of 164 white adult New York City residents. As with the previous experiment, one group received a “more-black” presentation—where the prison population was 60.3 percent black and 11.8 percent white, approximating the racial composition of inmates in New York City jails—while the other received a “less-black” variation, where the prison population was 40.3 percent black and 31.8 percent white (approximating that of the U.S. prison system writ large).

Advocates might want to try a different approach in their campaign to reform the criminal justice system.
Next, participants read that a federal judge had ruled NYC’s “stop-and-frisk” policy unconstitutional, and they were asked to answer several questions: “Given the ruling, how worried are you that crime will get out of control without the stop-and-frisk program?”; “How comforted were you knowing that people were being stopped as part of the stop-and-frisk program?”; “To maintain safety, how justified is it to use stop-and-frisk tactics?”; and “How necessary is it to have the stop-and-frisk program in place to keep crime low?”

After questioning, researchers gave participants a sample petition calling for an end to stop and frisk and asked them the following question: “If you had been approached by someone and asked to sign a petition like the one you just read, would you have signed it?” They had a choice of “yes” or “no.”

Again, participants in the “more-black” group were significantly less likely to endorse the petition (12 percent) than those in the “less-black” group (33 percent) even though most saw stop and frisk as a punitive measure.

The researchers also found that “crime concern” affected the willingness to sign the petition, as they wrote in their paper: “The more participants worried about crime, the less likely they were to say they would sign a petition to end the stop-and-frisk policy.”

Taken together, the conclusion was that “exposing people to extreme racial disparities in the prison population” led to a greater fear of crime and—at best—an unwillingness to support reform. For as much as you might be outraged by the vast racial disparities in marijuana arrests, for example, the general public might see the image of a young black man and hunker down in its support for marijuana prohibition.

It’s disheartening. But, if I can indulge my cynicism for a moment, it’s also not too surprising. From previous research, we know that—among white Americans—there’s a strong cognitive connection between “blackness” and criminality. “The mere presence of a black man,” note Eberhardt and other researchers in a 2004 paper, “can trigger thoughts that he is violent and criminal.”

Indeed, they continue, simply thinking about black Americans can lead people to see ambiguous actions as aggressive and to see harmless objects as weapons. When Michael Dunn saw 17-year-old Jordan Davis and his friends, he perceived a threat, imagined a gun, and opened fire, killing Davis. “I was the one who was victimized,” said Dunn in a phone call to his fiancée before his trial. It’s ludicrous, but it’s not dishonest. Like many other Americans, Dunn sees black people—and black men in particular—as a criminal threat.

What’s striking is this goes both ways. “In a crime-obsessed culture,” says the study, “simply thinking of crime can lead perceivers to conjure up images of Black Americans that ‘ready’ these perceivers to register and selectively attend to Black people who may be present in the actual physical environment.” In other words, the connection between blacks and crime is so tight that just thinking about crime—irrespective of the environment—triggers thoughts of black people in the same way that thinking of black people triggers thoughts of crime. And if you want a more disturbing thought, consider this: In one of the 2004 experiments, researchers found that exposing police officers to crime-related words followed by photos of black inmates “increases the likelihood that they will misremember a black face as more stereotypically black than it actually was.”

On top of this, there’s the stubborn persistence of false or faulty ideas. “Misperceptions, like zombies, are difficult to kill,” writes political scientist Brendan Nyhan, citing the health care reform “death panel” myth, which persists five years after Sarah Palin pushed it into the mainstream. In fact, they’re so durable that giving counterinformation can strengthen the original misperception. Confront vaccine-skeptics with evidence that vaccines don’t cause autism, and they may respond with greater skepticism.

The dynamic between race, crime, and criminal justice reform is similar. Tell people that blacks are overpoliced and over-represented in prison, and it triggers thoughts of crime, which leads to fear, which causes a backfire effect as people follow their fear and embrace the status quo of unfair, overly punitive punishments.

The immediate takeaway is that advocates might want to try different language (or a different approach) in their campaign to reform the criminal justice system. Racial injustice might be the main problem, but that doesn’t mean it’s the problem the broader public wants to solve.

To go a little deeper, however, I think this study further underscores the extent to which “blackness” retains its racial stigma, even as we move far away from the time of explicit anti-black attitudes. The dramatic progress of the past 50 years hasn’t dismantled America’s racial hierarchy or reshaped its form. The mythical “war on whites” notwithstanding, black Americans remain a disfavored class, subject to negative stereotypes, residential segregation, and rampant police violence.

Not that there aren’t bright spots. Large communities of black Americans succeed and thrive in ways that weren’t possible a few decades ago. But ask yourself, during downturns and recessions, why are blacks the worst off? Why do they fall furthest? Is it some unique pathology? Or is the racial caste system—and our subconscious racial attitudes—more durable than we want to believe?




--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23423681 - 07/08/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
The article was more-so posted to spearhead any ignorance in advance.

But you are the one who mentioned BLM and def inferred blame is to be had for the situation in general, which has led to this shooting.

Quote:

qman said:
Do you know what would help?  When the President of the United States doesn't go on TV to stir the pot and incite people based on his prejudgments of the situation!

He has blood on his hands be claiming some innocent black  was killed by a white person because of racism, in both cases he was WRONG!

Now, to have a honest discussion about police brutality and abuse of power, we need to make it non-racial based to have any credibility. White people are ALSO victims of police brutality, they are murdered by the police even more than blacks.

If you and your BLM mates want to make this a black vs white police issue, you're going to remain the big losers you currently are in the political world. Because at the end of the day, BLM isn't concerned about black lives, they're only concerned about protesting for political show.





Quote:

The retards in the BLM group listen to that crap and buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Most don't know the facts and details of the case, the media wants to stir the pot.








BLM started based on misinformation and lies, the fact that you ignore this reality is very troubling. The movement does not care about facts, only racial rhetoric.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23423831 - 07/08/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23423885 - 07/08/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life which includes age, sex, wealth, appearance, ethnicity, and the car they drive.

After a women sees the size of my penis, I get treated differently.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 3
    #23423933 - 07/08/16 03:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life...



Great, we're making progress.  Does that mean we should ignore the fact that black teens are 20 times more likely to be killed by a police than white teens?  Or is everything good because that's just the way it is?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23424113 - 07/08/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, as by itself it's a meaningless statistic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 2
    #23424371 - 07/08/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What's meaningless is your last post.  Maybe you can explain why you think it's meaningless that 20 times more black teens are killed by police even after adjusting for crime rates?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineMConchis
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay] * 2
    #23424797 - 07/08/16 09:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I have to agree with many of the things you are thinking.  I think part of the problem is the whole idea that we have to have a "war" on drugs, a war on terror, a war, a war, a war so that we make the police more and more like a military unit that become soldiers more than peace officers.  Instead of maintaining the peace they become armed warriors out to combat the "bad" guys. It creates a division between protecting us from people that are acting dangerously to becoming armed operations who see non-compliance with the smallest order as a sign that the citizen is the enemy. 

It also creates a division that closes the police into a unit that stand with their own, because after all, there is a war going on and everyone else is the enemy.  So their loyalties lie with their army, not all of us.

Profiling is a real thing, they can deny it, but it's real.  There are disparities that can only be explained by a kind of profiling, but again I think it comes back to the whole war on thing.  It's like you identify the enemy by the uniforms they wear, the language they speak, the deference they show.

It's something that has to be addressed, but to my way of thinking, it has to come back to demilitarizing the police and returning them to people that maintain the peace rather than having some mission to quash an impending invasion of an identifiable "other."


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23425607 - 07/09/16 03:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life which includes age, sex, wealth, appearance, ethnicity, and the car they drive.

After a women sees the size of my penis, I get treated differently.




lol qman accepts that people are judged based on race but he might just burst a blood vessel trying to pretend its not a microcosm of the societal and global level. prejudice based on race is racism. When youre at the top of that system by being white, i can understand its harder to see but you seem to be making a huge effort to resist it. Prejudices directly lead to how these people are dealt with.

your race and your small penis (tee hee) doesnt change, qman, all those other factors can and do.

YES we should wait for all the facts but there are some things that are all too clear. Sure, there are bound to be some details we miss in those videos but are they significant enough to change what clearly happened? What will justify the pointblank shooting of Sterling while he was on the floor with 2 police?? What will exonerate the officier who shot someone who reached for their license and registration when asked to?

Here Are 7 White People Who Pointed Guns at Cops and Didn’t Get Killed
yes I know that many white people are shot too, but you can see quite clearly that prejudices affecting split-second reactions tend to lead to more black deaths. More effort tends to be made with whites to end things peacefully. Police forces across the country are accepting and learning about these biases and how they translate into abuses.. but perhaps qman will be the last bastion of racism-denial.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #23425703 - 07/09/16 05:48 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life which includes age, sex, wealth, appearance, ethnicity, and the car they drive.





As a white, male, in your 40s, who is reasonably well-off and good looking, with a nice car (assumption about your wealth, looks and car) puts you at an advantage as to how the police will deal with you. Its often the difference between life and death, prison or freedom. Just because you aren't directly affected, it shouldnt blind you to systems of oppression against others. and back we come full circle to white privelege.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #23425726 - 07/09/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

a post from a friend..

Quote:

MLK prompted us (many didn't listen) about the danger of people who know "better" and refuse to speak out and speak up.

From Dr. King: I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” MLK (Letter From a Birmingham Jail)




--------------------
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #23425732 - 07/09/16 06:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote]
    #23425745 - 07/09/16 06:31 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
a post from a friend..

Quote:

MLK prompted us (many didn't listen) about the danger of people who know "better" and refuse to speak out and speak up.

From Dr. King: I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” MLK (Letter From a Birmingham Jail)







:heart:
MLK was one of the greatest.



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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23425936 - 07/09/16 08:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life...



Great, we're making progress.  Does that mean we should ignore the fact that black teens are 20 times more likely to be killed by a police than white teens?  Or is everything good because that's just the way it is?




It doesn't take into account that those killings are more likely justified, why are young blacks more likely to attack a police officer? 

Why are young blacks more likely to murder another person?

Why are young blacks more likely to not comply with the police?

So maybe this "20 times more likely to be killed by the police" makes complete sense at the end of the day.

Did you ever think that law enforcement's' response to a specific demographic is based on logic and wisdom, not hatred?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote]
    #23425943 - 07/09/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life which includes age, sex, wealth, appearance, ethnicity, and the car they drive.

After a women sees the size of my penis, I get treated differently.




lol qman accepts that people are judged based on race but he might just burst a blood vessel trying to pretend its not a microcosm of the societal and global level. prejudice based on race is racism. When youre at the top of that system by being white, i can understand its harder to see but you seem to be making a huge effort to resist it. Prejudices directly lead to how these people are dealt with.

your race and your small penis (tee hee) doesnt change, qman, all those other factors can and do.

YES we should wait for all the facts but there are some things that are all too clear. Sure, there are bound to be some details we miss in those videos but are they significant enough to change what clearly happened? What will justify the pointblank shooting of Sterling while he was on the floor with 2 police?? What will exonerate the officier who shot someone who reached for their license and registration when asked to?

Here Are 7 White People Who Pointed Guns at Cops and Didn’t Get Killed
yes I know that many white people are shot too, but you can see quite clearly that prejudices affecting split-second reactions tend to lead to more black deaths. More effort tends to be made with whites to end things peacefully. Police forces across the country are accepting and learning about these biases and how they translate into abuses.. but perhaps qman will be the last bastion of racism-denial.




What about the black people who pointed guns at cops and didn't get killed?

Can't report those stories.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Tipote]
    #23425954 - 07/09/16 09:07 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you think it's a lie that black people are treated differently than white people?  :shrug:




People are treated differently based on everything in life which includes age, sex, wealth, appearance, ethnicity, and the car they drive.





As a white, male, in your 40s, who is reasonably well-off and good looking, with a nice car (assumption about your wealth, looks and car) puts you at an advantage as to how the police will deal with you. Its often the difference between life and death, prison or freedom. Just because you aren't directly affected, it shouldnt blind you to systems of oppression against others. and back we come full circle to white privelege.




So you want to do away with statistical commonsense that's ingrained in every human working in law enforcement?

Young people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Males are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Poor people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Or is it just too easy to resist the race card because that's where your real passion is, calling others racists.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23425982 - 07/09/16 09:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
It doesn't take into account that those killings are more likely justified, why are young blacks more likely to attack a police officer? 

Why are young blacks more likely to murder another person?

Why are young blacks more likely to not comply with the police?

So maybe this "20 times more likely to be killed by the police" makes complete sense at the end of the day.

Did you ever think that law enforcement's' response to a specific demographic is based on logic and wisdom, not hatred?



I don't think anyone here is arguing police shouldn't defend themselves if their lives are in danger.

And I don't think anyone here is arguing people from poor communities, who are disproportionally black, don't commit more crime.

The article even showed that blacks are 3 times more likely to commit violent crime.  But that doesn't justify blacks being 20 times more likely to be killed.

The fact is that anyone can harm a police officer, and police should treat everyone as a potential threat.  They shouldn't shoot someone just because they're black and they don't want to take any chances.  We see video after video of blacks being shot by cops without probable cause.  THAT'S the problem.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23425992 - 07/09/16 09:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
So you want to do away with statistical commonsense that's ingrained in every human working in law enforcement?



YES!  You can't shoot somebody just because they're black and you think they have a higher probability of harming you.  You need to treat each incidence as a potential threat, and treat the person equally regardless of color.

Quote:

qman said:
Young people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Males are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Poor people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Or is it just too easy to resist the race card because that's where your real passion is, calling others racists.



Why should there be an outcry if they're not being killed at the same rate?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23426020 - 07/09/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426023 - 07/09/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
It doesn't take into account that those killings are more likely justified, why are young blacks more likely to attack a police officer? 

Why are young blacks more likely to murder another person?

Why are young blacks more likely to not comply with the police?

So maybe this "20 times more likely to be killed by the police" makes complete sense at the end of the day.

Did you ever think that law enforcement's' response to a specific demographic is based on logic and wisdom, not hatred?



I don't think anyone here is arguing police shouldn't defend themselves if their lives are in danger.

And I don't think anyone here is arguing people from poor communities, who are disproportionally black, don't commit more crime.

The article even showed that blacks are 3 times more likely to commit violent crime.  But that doesn't justify blacks being 20 times more likely to be killed.

The fact is that anyone can harm a police officer, and police should treat everyone as a potential threat.  They shouldn't shoot someone just because they're black and they don't want to take any chances.  We see video after video of blacks being shot by cops without probable cause.  THAT'S the problem.




Maybe the reason why the rate of cops shooting blacks is higher is because the get into more physical altercations with law enforcement!!

Why did Michael Brown get shot that day?  He sucker punched a cop in the eye and then tried to steal his gun, he was killed and it was justifiable, that's why blacks are killed at a higher rate than other demographics!

So is this a police problem?  No, it's a young black male problem in most the cases. If a cop kills someone for no justification, we already have laws and a system to deal with that reality.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426032 - 07/09/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
So you want to do away with statistical commonsense that's ingrained in every human working in law enforcement?



YES!  You can't shoot somebody just because they're black and you think they have a higher probability of harming you.  You need to treat each incidence as a potential threat, and treat the person equally regardless of color.

Quote:

qman said:
Young people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Males are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Poor people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Or is it just too easy to resist the race card because that's where your real passion is, calling others racists.



Why should there be an outcry if they're not being killed at the same rate?




Males are NOT being killed at the same rate as females, where's the outcry?

Older people are NOT being killed at the same rate as younger people, where's the outcry?

Why is the outcry only there when there's a different rate based on race?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426081 - 07/09/16 09:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Young people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Males are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Poor people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Or is it just too easy to resist the race card because that's where your real passion is, calling others racists.



Why should there be an outcry if they're not being killed at the same rate?



Males are NOT being killed at the same rate as females, where's the outcry?

Older people are NOT being killed at the same rate as younger people, where's the outcry?

Why is the outcry only there when there's a different rate based on race?



There is no outcry when people don't get killed enough.  The outcry is when people get killed too much.  That's why there is outcry over black shootings.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426112 - 07/09/16 10:10 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Young people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Males are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Poor people are more likely to be violent, where is your outcry about prejudging them?

Or is it just too easy to resist the race card because that's where your real passion is, calling others racists.



Why should there be an outcry if they're not being killed at the same rate?



Males are NOT being killed at the same rate as females, where's the outcry?

Older people are NOT being killed at the same rate as younger people, where's the outcry?

Why is the outcry only there when there's a different rate based on race?



There is no outcry when people don't get killed enough.  The outcry is when people get killed too much.  That's why there is outcry over black shootings.




"The outcry is when people get killed too much"

You mean like males and younger people? 

You're still dogging the truth, why are males getting killed at a much higher rate than females? 

Why are younger people getting killed at a much higher rate than older people?

It's hard to face the hypocrisy in your reasoning, throwing that race card is just such a addictive habit isn't it?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23426239 - 07/09/16 11:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
There is no outcry when people don't get killed enough.  The outcry is when people get killed too much.  That's why there is outcry over black shootings.



You mean like males and younger people?



What?!?  You previously said it's justified that blacks are being shot at 20 times the rate of whites, but now you're saying young white males are getting killed too much?  :wtf:

Quote:

qman said:
You're still dogging the truth, why are males getting killed at a much higher rate than females? 

Why are younger people getting killed at a much higher rate than older people?

It's hard to face the hypocrisy in your reasoning, throwing that race card is just such a addictive habit isn't it?



Can you be specific about what truth I'm dodging?

The debate seems to be about whether or not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops.  I'm arguing no one should be killed unless a cop's life is clearly in danger.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426292 - 07/09/16 11:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
There is no outcry when people don't get killed enough.  The outcry is when people get killed too much.  That's why there is outcry over black shootings.



You mean like males and younger people?



What?!?  You previously said it's justified that blacks are being shot at 20 times the rate of whites, but now you're saying young white males are getting killed too much?  :wtf:

Quote:

qman said:
You're still dogging the truth, why are males getting killed at a much higher rate than females? 

Why are younger people getting killed at a much higher rate than older people?

It's hard to face the hypocrisy in your reasoning, throwing that race card is just such a addictive habit isn't it?



Can you be specific about what truth I'm dodging?

The debate seems to be about whether or not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops.  I'm arguing no one should be killed unless a cop's life is clearly in danger.




I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426319 - 07/09/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.



I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426351 - 07/09/16 11:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.



I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.

Michael Brown got killed by a cop, but it was determined it was justifiable.  Many people falsely assumed he was "killed without probable cause", they were wrong.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426420 - 07/09/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.



But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426458 - 07/09/16 12:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.



But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:

"There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder"

Of course, because no system of justice is perfect and there will always be bad cops.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426523 - 07/09/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:



No, that's NOT what I said.  During the jury selection process, the defense gets to object to jurors they don't want.  Do you think they will try to get the fairest jurors, or the ones that are most likely to vote in a white cop's favor?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426542 - 07/09/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:



No, that's NOT what I said.  During the jury selection process, the defense gets to object to jurors they don't want.  Do you think they will try to get the fairest jurors, or the ones that are most likely to vote in a white cop's favor?




So didn't the prosecutor take an oath to do his job to his fullest capability?   

The defense does everything it can to win, the prosecutor does everything he can to win.

Are you suggesting that the majority of prosecutors are deliberately sabotaging their own cases against guilty cops?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426631 - 07/09/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426656 - 07/09/16 01:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426722 - 07/09/16 01:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them.



Trump has made it very clear that the country is still extremely racist.

Quote:

qman said:
Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?



Not necessarily.  It's important that we don't send innocent people to jail, so the system gives the defense an advantage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 2
    #23427694 - 07/09/16 08:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?







--------------------
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23428857 - 07/10/16 09:51 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's meaningless is your last post.  Maybe you can explain why you think it's meaningless that 20 times more black teens are killed by police even after adjusting for crime rates?




Because the corresponding stats, such as how many whites/blacks resist arrest, type of incident, or point weapons is missing.

There are too many possible variables to say.

It's like the tools that say more blacks are suspended from school while not telling us why the suspensions occur in the first place.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23428888 - 07/10/16 10:03 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23428890 - 07/10/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?










Jane Elliott is a racist bully nut job.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23430861 - 07/10/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's meaningless is your last post.  Maybe you can explain why you think it's meaningless that 20 times more black teens are killed by police even after adjusting for crime rates?




Because the corresponding stats, such as how many whites/blacks resist arrest, type of incident, or point weapons is missing.



Please feel free to post those stats.  But black teens are killed by police at 20 times the rate of white teens, even after adjusting for crime rates.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23431633 - 07/11/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Not sure if this has been posted, but it's a relevant study out of Harvard. Haven't had time to do more than skim it, but results are interesting.

NYT article on the study, study itself. Note that it is only a working paper, which means it hasn't had rigorous peer-review yet.

In a nutshell, studying police departments in Texas, Florida, and California, the author finds that black and Hispanic individuals were more likely to encounter police force (such as handcuffs, use of hands, drawn weapon, etc.), but were equally likely to be shot, either fatally or non-fatally. I think the bias in use of force is not particularly surprising, but it's interesting to see that it doesn't carry over to lethal force. Like I said, I've not yet read it to see how convincing the data are, or what support they offer for explaining the discrepancy, but it definitely provides some context.


--------------------
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Edited by BoldAsLove (07/11/16 04:54 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #23431894 - 07/11/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

the environment here in dallas seems absolutely toxic. there's a lot of tension on the streets and social media is increasingly filled with fascism from all sides of the issue. for the first time ever in my life, i want to disengage from public discourse.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: millzy]
    #23431958 - 07/11/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432639 - 07/11/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Scum of Dallas celebrating the shooting of cops.



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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432706 - 07/11/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23432743 - 07/11/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.




What issues would those be?


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432786 - 07/11/16 06:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.




What issues would those be?




The Social Justice warrior wing of the movement that is talking about moving back to Africa, and spreading hate toward whitey. Or the murdering of police officers. I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people, but to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.

How about the cunts that hijacked the Sanders campaign, when Sanders is the candidate most likely to have benefitted their cause.

I respect the fact that black people are a disadvantaged subset of our society in many ways, and the fact that we are seeing numerous cases of murder by police officers, and have been for a year now. That is a problem.


--------------------
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Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23432814 - 07/11/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Millzy; I'm having an entirely different experience here in Dallas? I'm seeing all sides settle a little and listen more.


qman: like I told millzy, that's not what I'm seeing here but, I'm also not surprised that's how fox news is representing it.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/07/11/one-dallas-protesters-come-together-nccorig.cnn

BLM did just release a plan or list of things they want addressed. I think many of you will be surprised it is not race specific when applied and leaves the actual application of items up for discussion. I don't think any of these ten items are controversial in the least.

http://www.puckermob.com/lifestyle/black-lives-matter-just-delivered-their-10-point-manifesto-and-this-is-what-they-want
Quote:

Their plan – “Campaign Zero” – focuses on 10 points where they would like the law to change. They believe that these changes will help stop racial profiling and lessen the dangers everyday citizens face when dealing with the police.

To get an idea of what they are asking for we thought we’d provide a breakdown of their plan:

1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.

“Broken windows” policing is the idea that vigorously enforcing small crimes (like vandalism) will prevent larger crimes from happening. This law has allowed police to increase “stop and frisks”, which BLM claims enables racial stereotyping. They argue that Black men and women are unfairly targeted by police using this law as an excuse, and that this policy ultimately led to the death of Eric Garner (remember the guy that was choked to death after he was caught selling loose cigarettes). This is their first point in their plan, and probably the most controversial.

2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face.

Rather than the police deciding how an officer is punished after they’ve committed a crime (like when an officer who caused a death is ‘punished’ by being put on paid leave for six months), they want an independent group to review all cases and dole out the punishments. Since, you know, the police department might be a tad on biased.

3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.

A lot of reports of police using deadly force aren’t released to the public. This skews the statistics when it comes down to who died by police hands and it leaves the public in the dark about how the police operate. BLM want to standardize the reporting methods and make the whole process more transparent.

4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.

Much like point two, BLM doesn’t want the police investigating crimes committed by the police since it’s proven to be a recipe for trouble. Instead, they want an independently run government body to investigate whether or not an officer has violated the law. The short version: if a cop shoots someone, someone other than the cops should look into the case to see if that shooting was lawful.

5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.

This one is simple enough to ask for, harder to carry out in practice. BLM want the police force to be racially representative of the areas they protect. If a community is 50% Black, 30% Hispanic, and 20% White, they want to see a police force that reflects those demographics. Hypothetically, for every two White officers they’d hire, they’d also hire five Black officers and three Hispanic officers.

6. Require officers to wear body cameras.

This policy has already been implemented in several different police forces across the country – and with great success in some cases. However, the debate starts when it comes down to when and why an officer can turn the camera off. For example, you wouldn't want people watching you when you went for a piss, would you?

7. Provide more training for police officers.

More training is never a bad thing. Many supporters of BLM believe that a lot of the issues between police officers and citizens have been instigated by rookie cops that are a little too eager to prove themselves in the field, and they feel a little extra training could help that out.

8. End for-profit policing practices.

This is a biggie. As of now, the police can legally take any money or property that they “believe” is in some way linked to a crime, and they can use that money and property as they see fit, even if you’re never convicted of that crime. It’s called Civil Forfeiture and the police in many areas have used this “right” to fund their own agencies and precincts. This is a major issue, and many people from different walks of life see it as legalized robbery. For more information check out John Oliver’s take on it, as he explains it far more eloquently than I ever could.

9. End the police use of military equipment.

BLM argues that the police should be working with the community to provide peaceful resolutions to society's issues and that the use of military equipment shows an intent to abuse their power over citizens. It drives home the Us vs Them mentality. Big guns and body armour = scared citizens. Open dialogue and transparency = happy citizens.

10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

So, police unions have a history of protecting police (shocking, I know). Police officers accused of misconduct are no exception, but other members are often discouraged by their unions to speak out against those accused. This can delay convictions and stop valuable information or evidence from coming to light which prevents real justice. While the police need unions to protect their rights, BLM argue that the unions should play their part in weeding out the bad apples. If not, the abuse of power will continue because the bad officers know they can get away with it.





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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23432822 - 07/11/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.




What issues would those be?




The Social Justice warrior wing of the movement that is talking about moving back to Africa, and spreading hate toward whitey. Or the murdering of police officers. I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people, but to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.

How about the cunts that hijacked the Sanders campaign, when Sanders is the candidate most likely to have benefitted their cause.

I respect the fact that black people are a disadvantaged subset of our society in many ways, and the fact that we are seeing numerous cases of murder by police officers, and have been for a year now. That is a problem.




"talking about moving back to Africa"

Big talkers and nothing else, they know where their bread is buttered.

"I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people"

Like Darren Wilson?  Or the cop that got charged with murder in South Carolina?  You now justify vigilante justice?

"That is a problem"

Justifiable shootings are NOT a problem, you do know more whites have been killed by cops this year than blacks, is that NOT a problem or is this just a narrative for black lives?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23432860 - 07/11/16 06:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Millzy; I'm having an entirely different experience here in Dallas? I'm seeing all sides settle a little and listen more.


qman: like I told millzy, that's not what I'm seeing here but, I'm also not surprised that's how fox news is representing it.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/07/11/one-dallas-protesters-come-together-nccorig.cnn

BLM did just release a plan or list of things they want addressed. I think many of you will be surprised it is not race specific when applied and leaves the actual application of items up for discussion. I don't think any of these ten items are controversial in the least.

http://www.puckermob.com/lifestyle/black-lives-matter-just-delivered-their-10-point-manifesto-and-this-is-what-they-want
Quote:

Their plan – “Campaign Zero” – focuses on 10 points where they would like the law to change. They believe that these changes will help stop racial profiling and lessen the dangers everyday citizens face when dealing with the police.

To get an idea of what they are asking for we thought we’d provide a breakdown of their plan:

1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.

“Broken windows” policing is the idea that vigorously enforcing small crimes (like vandalism) will prevent larger crimes from happening. This law has allowed police to increase “stop and frisks”, which BLM claims enables racial stereotyping. They argue that Black men and women are unfairly targeted by police using this law as an excuse, and that this policy ultimately led to the death of Eric Garner (remember the guy that was choked to death after he was caught selling loose cigarettes). This is their first point in their plan, and probably the most controversial.

2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face.

Rather than the police deciding how an officer is punished after they’ve committed a crime (like when an officer who caused a death is ‘punished’ by being put on paid leave for six months), they want an independent group to review all cases and dole out the punishments. Since, you know, the police department might be a tad on biased.

3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.

A lot of reports of police using deadly force aren’t released to the public. This skews the statistics when it comes down to who died by police hands and it leaves the public in the dark about how the police operate. BLM want to standardize the reporting methods and make the whole process more transparent.

4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.

Much like point two, BLM doesn’t want the police investigating crimes committed by the police since it’s proven to be a recipe for trouble. Instead, they want an independently run government body to investigate whether or not an officer has violated the law. The short version: if a cop shoots someone, someone other than the cops should look into the case to see if that shooting was lawful.

5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.

This one is simple enough to ask for, harder to carry out in practice. BLM want the police force to be racially representative of the areas they protect. If a community is 50% Black, 30% Hispanic, and 20% White, they want to see a police force that reflects those demographics. Hypothetically, for every two White officers they’d hire, they’d also hire five Black officers and three Hispanic officers.

6. Require officers to wear body cameras.

This policy has already been implemented in several different police forces across the country – and with great success in some cases. However, the debate starts when it comes down to when and why an officer can turn the camera off. For example, you wouldn't want people watching you when you went for a piss, would you?

7. Provide more training for police officers.

More training is never a bad thing. Many supporters of BLM believe that a lot of the issues between police officers and citizens have been instigated by rookie cops that are a little too eager to prove themselves in the field, and they feel a little extra training could help that out.

8. End for-profit policing practices.

This is a biggie. As of now, the police can legally take any money or property that they “believe” is in some way linked to a crime, and they can use that money and property as they see fit, even if you’re never convicted of that crime. It’s called Civil Forfeiture and the police in many areas have used this “right” to fund their own agencies and precincts. This is a major issue, and many people from different walks of life see it as legalized robbery. For more information check out John Oliver’s take on it, as he explains it far more eloquently than I ever could.

9. End the police use of military equipment.

BLM argues that the police should be working with the community to provide peaceful resolutions to society's issues and that the use of military equipment shows an intent to abuse their power over citizens. It drives home the Us vs Them mentality. Big guns and body armour = scared citizens. Open dialogue and transparency = happy citizens.

10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

So, police unions have a history of protecting police (shocking, I know). Police officers accused of misconduct are no exception, but other members are often discouraged by their unions to speak out against those accused. This can delay convictions and stop valuable information or evidence from coming to light which prevents real justice. While the police need unions to protect their rights, BLM argue that the unions should play their part in weeding out the bad apples. If not, the abuse of power will continue because the bad officers know they can get away with it.








I have always said let the people of that community police themselves, but guess what BLM's, not enough blacks want to police their own communities, all they do is complain about the policing tactics.  Instead of protesting, sign-up to fucking become cops!!!! Something the Dallas Police Chief said today.

Who would be this "independent" group to rule on police "misconduct"?    Are they qualified?  How could they "dole" out punishment?  Or do they basically want some un-elected official to decide the fate of police officers, that's not even constitutional.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432884 - 07/11/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

well I think that's why it doesn't suggest applications of the ideas you know what I said in the beginning.

you have always said that in a tongue in cheek manner, based on the pre-judgements you have of people with black skin color. the list goes above and beyond that point cause we all know that alone will not solve the issues at hand.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23432978 - 07/11/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23433179 - 07/11/16 08:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.




I'm not convinced that there is such a thing.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23433204 - 07/11/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.




What issues would those be?




The Social Justice warrior wing of the movement that is talking about moving back to Africa, and spreading hate toward whitey. Or the murdering of police officers. I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people, but to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.

How about the cunts that hijacked the Sanders campaign, when Sanders is the candidate most likely to have benefitted their cause.

I respect the fact that black people are a disadvantaged subset of our society in many ways, and the fact that we are seeing numerous cases of murder by police officers, and have been for a year now. That is a problem.




"talking about moving back to Africa"

Big talkers and nothing else, they know where their bread is buttered.

"I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people"

Like Darren Wilson?  Or the cop that got charged with murder in South Carolina?  You now justify vigilante justice?




I didn't justify it, I said I would be alright with it, and I would. I'm not terribly opposed to vigilante justice, if it is justified. My respect for our legal system and our government has been dwindling for a few years now.

Quote:


"That is a problem"

Justifiable shootings are NOT a problem, you do know more whites have been killed by cops this year than blacks, is that NOT a problem or is this just a narrative for black lives?




Justifiable shootings are not a problem. I'm speaking of unjustified shootings. Unfortunately, and I know that you are incapable of seeing this point, but the fact that a black person has been shot, and the fact that a police officer has done some shooting, does not mean it is justified.

Also, what does the number of white people who have been killed by the police have to do with anything? I haven't seen a constant barrage of videos and stories of unjustified white shootings by police for the past 2 years. I haven't even seen one, led alone 20.

The only reason you support murder by police, is because you are a flaming racist.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Enlil]
    #23433219 - 07/11/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.




I'm not convinced that there is such a thing.




As an innocent police officer? Sure there are... As innocent as any other person. I live in a place with an excellent police force. This is the first time in my life I've been able to say that too...

Either way, they are innocent of the crimes that these vigilantes are lashing out for.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/11/16 08:45 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23433286 - 07/11/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.




What issues would those be?




The Social Justice warrior wing of the movement that is talking about moving back to Africa, and spreading hate toward whitey. Or the murdering of police officers. I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people, but to just go shooting innocent police makes them just as bad.

How about the cunts that hijacked the Sanders campaign, when Sanders is the candidate most likely to have benefitted their cause.

I respect the fact that black people are a disadvantaged subset of our society in many ways, and the fact that we are seeing numerous cases of murder by police officers, and have been for a year now. That is a problem.




"talking about moving back to Africa"

Big talkers and nothing else, they know where their bread is buttered.

"I would be alright with it if they murdered the police officers who had murdered innocent black people"

Like Darren Wilson?  Or the cop that got charged with murder in South Carolina?  You now justify vigilante justice?




I didn't justify it, I said I would be alright with it, and I would. I'm not terribly opposed to vigilante justice, if it is justified. My respect for our legal system and our government has been dwindling for a few years now.

Quote:


"That is a problem"

Justifiable shootings are NOT a problem, you do know more whites have been killed by cops this year than blacks, is that NOT a problem or is this just a narrative for black lives?




Justifiable shootings are not a problem. I'm speaking of unjustified shootings. Unfortunately, and I know that you are incapable of seeing this point, but the fact that a black person has been shot, and the fact that a police officer has done some shooting, does not mean it is justified.

Also, what does the number of white people who have been killed by the police have to do with anything? I haven't seen a constant barrage of videos and stories of unjustified white shootings by police for the past 2 years. I haven't even seen one, led alone 20.

The only reason you support murder by police, is because you are a flaming racist.




"does not mean it is justified"

That's correct, here's one that was NOT justified. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/11/former-north-charleston-officer-who-shot-walter-scott-indicted-on-federal-civil-rights-violation/?utm_term=.e230a8a32d10

"I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of unjustified white shootings by police"

Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

"The only reason why you support murder by police"

I don't support unjustified murder by police, was Michael Brown's shooting justified?  Yes, that's because he tried to kill a cop.  Was this murder by police justified? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/houston-cops-fatally-shoot-man-waving-gun-middle-street-article-1.2705286

"you are a flaming racist"

Flaming isn't allowed in this forum.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23433303 - 07/11/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
here's one for ya qman

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer




Yep, the criminal justice system isn't perfect because it's run by humans, what's your point?

Here's a real shitty policy. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/02/09/pro-profit-probation-violates-poor

Can't pay for probation, go to jail.


Edited by qman (07/11/16 09:23 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23433345 - 07/11/16 09:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of unjustified white shootings by police"

Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.




You clearly didn't understand my statement at all. I said, I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of UNJUSTIFIED white shootings by police. Your statistic is not applicable until you present me with a slew of cases in which white people are the victims of unwarranted murder by police officers. Now, I am not saying I've never seen a case of this happening. There was a homeless man about a year ago, who was white, and he was murdered by police officers. They were tried and convicted for their crime.

However, this seems to be systemic.

Quote:

"The only reason why you support murder by police"

I don't support unjustified murder by police, was Michael Brown's shooting justified?  Yes, that's because he tried to kill a cop.  Was this murder by police justified? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/houston-cops-fatally-shoot-man-waving-gun-middle-street-article-1.2705286

"you are a flaming racist"

Flaming isn't allowed in this forum.




Michael Brown didn't try to kill a cop. There was no evidence of that. I personally believe that if they thought that he was justified, they would have allowed it to go to court. The prosecution presented a defense case to the grand jury, which is not proper procedure. They are supposed to present the case for prosecution alone.

Regardless, Michael Brown is an example that has been made hazy by the Bill O'Reilly's of the world. There are many better examples. For some reason, unbeknownst to me, you will defend the police in each and every one of these occasions. What is your infatuation with the police? They have been destroying lives for decades now. They are out of control.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23433399 - 07/11/16 09:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of unjustified white shootings by police"

Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.




You clearly didn't understand my statement at all. I said, I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of UNJUSTIFIED white shootings by police. Your statistic is not applicable until you present me with a slew of cases in which white people are the victims of unwarranted murder by police officers. Now, I am not saying I've never seen a case of this happening. There was a homeless man about a year ago, who was white, and he was murdered by police officers. They were tried and convicted for their crime.

However, this seems to be systemic.

Quote:

"The only reason why you support murder by police"

I don't support unjustified murder by police, was Michael Brown's shooting justified?  Yes, that's because he tried to kill a cop.  Was this murder by police justified? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/houston-cops-fatally-shoot-man-waving-gun-middle-street-article-1.2705286

"you are a flaming racist"

Flaming isn't allowed in this forum.




Michael Brown didn't try to kill a cop. There was no evidence of that. I personally believe that if they thought that he was justified, they would have allowed it to go to court. The prosecution presented a defense case to the grand jury, which is not proper procedure. They are supposed to present the case for prosecution alone.

Regardless, Michael Brown is an example that has been made hazy by the Bill O'Reilly's of the world. There are many better examples. For some reason, unbeknownst to me, you will defend the police in each and every one of these occasions. What is your infatuation with the police? They have been destroying lives for decades now. They are out of control.




The evidence clearly showed Brown sucker punched Wilson in the eye and grabbed for his gun, you might not call that attempted murder but most people disagree with you on that assessment. But guess what?  The law clearly entitled Wilson to use deadly force in that case. :shrug:

You disagree with how the prosecution presented its case, do you know why?  Because it never should have went to a grand jury, they had NO case.

"What is your infatuation with the police?"

I don't like most cops, but I dislike criminal thugs even more, make sense.

"They have been destroying lives for decades now"

Mainly because of the war on drugs, that's not the cops fault.  How much did any R or D talk about drug laws during this presidential campaign?  ZERO!!

"They are out of control"

The criminal justice system and the laws have plenty of problems to say the least, but we also have lots of criminal cultures inside of the US as well.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 2
    #23433480 - 07/11/16 10:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The evidence clearly showed Brown sucker punched Wilson in the eye and grabbed for his gun, you might not call that attempted murder but most people disagree with you on that assessment. But guess what?  The law clearly entitled Wilson to use deadly force in that case. :shrug:




Apparently my posts are incomprehensible to you, but I will try one last time. I said there are many better examples than the Brown case. We have seen many cases of unjustified murder of black people over the course of the past year. The case where the officer planted the taser on the man after shooting him in the back. This last case. The Eric Garner case (which is a case I'm sure you will cherry pick out of this post and defend the police on, and you will be wrongfully defending murderers).

Quote:

You disagree with how the prosecution presented its case, do you know why?  Because it never should have went to a grand jury, they had NO case.




That's actually not why. The prosecution presented evidence in defense of the officer. The fact of the matter is, it DID go to a grand jury, and when it did, it was the prosecution's job to present the case for prosecution. Not to present any shred of evidence in defense of the officer. That is my problem.

I am beginning to think you don't really understand any of this terribly well. You seem to be cherry picking shit, and stumbling along while I am forced to reiterate point after point. I guess it makes sense why you take the stance you've taken.

Quote:

"What is your infatuation with the police?"

I don't like most cops, but I dislike criminal thugs even more, make sense.




Not true. Police who commit murder are the worst form of criminal thugs. You avidly support them.

Quote:

"They have been destroying lives for decades now"

Mainly because of the war on drugs, that's not the cops fault.  How much did any R or D talk about drug laws during this presidential campaign?  ZERO!!




There is a lot wrong with our criminal justice system. The war on drugs was STARTED to target MINORITIES... Are you unaware of this? It's really no wonder you defend those who have been persecuting minorities for half a fucking century. Plug your fuckin ears qman 'lalalalaa'.

I suppose you feel Nazi soldiers weren't guilty. How about civil forfeiture? Police stealing thousands of dollars from unsuspecting civilians for their own personal slush funds.



(This is another example of thuggary).

"They are out of control"

Quote:

The criminal justice system and the laws have plenty of problems to say the least, but we also have lots of criminal cultures inside of the US as well.




By "criminal cultures" you're referring to 'dem niggers is super predators'. Jesus man, get a grip.

We have Hillary Clinton getting off for crimes she was clearly guilty of. We have police getting off for murder (though I suspect that in this latest case, that will not be the case). Civil forfeiture, the revelations of Michael Woods:





--------------------
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Every one of you should see this video.
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/11/16 10:10 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23433552 - 07/11/16 10:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The war of drugs has targeted everyone, I was there when it started in full force and disagreed with it the whole time.

BTW, I have been following and telling people about asset forfeiture for decades, I know all about the injustices with it.

The cops on the street aren't responsible for this stuff, the CEO's that shut down US factories and send them to Mexico are just pawns in the game, I don't blame them either.  You have to look at the policymakers, not the hired hands.

I don't justify police abuse or brutality of any kind, I don't approve of unjustifiable killings either, but cops are many times forced into situations which require deadly force, that's part of the job.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 2
    #23433622 - 07/11/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The war of drugs has targeted everyone, I was there when it started in full force and disagreed with it the whole time.




Yes, it has targeted everyone, and yes it is the central source of animosity towards police. However, given that it is the justification for no-knock raids, shooting people's pets, and tear gassing babies, we ought to look at just why the war on drugs was initiated. It was started to target minority groups, originally. Do you disagree with that? The evidence is staggering, and I would be happy to source it for you.

The war on drugs is thuggary, and police officers or complicit.

Quote:

BTW, I have been following and telling people about asset forfeiture for decades, I know all about the injustices with it.




Good. It is thuggary, and theft.

Quote:

The cops on the street aren't responsible for this stuff, the CEO's that shut down US factories and send them to Mexico are just pawns in the game, I don't blame them either.  You have to look at the policymakers, not the hired hands.




Some of us view the politicians as the pawns. I think neither is the case, in any absolute way. Sometimes CEOs are 'pawns', and sometimes politicians are the pawns, but at the end of the day, those willing to compromise their integrity for personal gain are still the bearers of guilt.

Just as Nazi soldiers bore the guilt of their actions.

Quote:

I don't justify police abuse or brutality of any kind, I don't approve of unjustifiable killings either, but cops are many times forced into situations which require deadly force, that's part of the job.




Well, many times they are put into situations which do not require deadly force, and they just happen to kill unarmed black people, or people who have already been subdued (Be sure to watch this first one, now):






How about the woman who "committed suicide" while in police custody? How about the cops who charged a man for bleeding on their uniforms, after beating the shit out of him, because they didn't have anything else on him?

These are thugs. You should oppose thugs. You should oppose these men.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23433803 - 07/12/16 12:16 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I said, I haven't seen a barrage of videos and stories of UNJUSTIFIED white shootings by police. Your statistic is not applicable until you present me with a slew of cases in which white people are the victims of unwarranted murder by police officers.

Regardless, Michael Brown is an example that has been made hazy by the Bill O'Reilly's of the world. There are many better examples.



:awesomenod:


--------------------
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 1
    #23434098 - 07/12/16 05:52 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.





You are correct that the actual number is greater. However your narrative around it is incorrect and actually your approach completely incorrect. Here, washington post explains it simply.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.0e4fa8fd9ed8
Quote:

In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.





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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23434517 - 07/12/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

There's some police officers harasses Black folks and some harasses Whites as well. It is whatever they has the taste for.  There are some officers that does it out of hatred of the color of a person skin and then there are some that just want to relieve some stress that morning. I believes that races needs to mingle with one another; that they need to see how the other half live. The officers have to bring in a certain quota every day, that they has to make sure that the city support itself instead of having the support from the federal government. And locking up individuals help bring in revenue for the city. The longer they stay, the more money they makes. But if they are bailed out, then less money they are making. But right now, to prevent any more violence against cops, they need to start hiring cops from online without seeing the person nationality, but only they will be hiring on skills and test scores. And the ones that does the hiring should be done by college students that lives in a another state that doesn't knows whom the applicant is. And so that they cannot say that they are hiring their own kind.





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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23434862 - 07/12/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.





You are correct that the actual number is greater. However your narrative around it is incorrect and actually your approach completely incorrect. Here, washington post explains it simply.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.0e4fa8fd9ed8
Quote:

In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.








"unless you first adjust for population"

Which really makes little sense, because it's more important to adjust for interactions with law enforcement, when that's factored in there's NO racial bias against blacks, in fact whites get the shitty end of the stick.


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23434893 - 07/12/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
The war of drugs has targeted everyone, I was there when it started in full force and disagreed with it the whole time.




Yes, it has targeted everyone, and yes it is the central source of animosity towards police. However, given that it is the justification for no-knock raids, shooting people's pets, and tear gassing babies, we ought to look at just why the war on drugs was initiated. It was started to target minority groups, originally. Do you disagree with that? The evidence is staggering, and I would be happy to source it for you.

The war on drugs is thuggary, and police officers or complicit.

Quote:

BTW, I have been following and telling people about asset forfeiture for decades, I know all about the injustices with it.




Good. It is thuggary, and theft.

Quote:

The cops on the street aren't responsible for this stuff, the CEO's that shut down US factories and send them to Mexico are just pawns in the game, I don't blame them either.  You have to look at the policymakers, not the hired hands.




Some of us view the politicians as the pawns. I think neither is the case, in any absolute way. Sometimes CEOs are 'pawns', and sometimes politicians are the pawns, but at the end of the day, those willing to compromise their integrity for personal gain are still the bearers of guilt.

Just as Nazi soldiers bore the guilt of their actions.

Quote:

I don't justify police abuse or brutality of any kind, I don't approve of unjustifiable killings either, but cops are many times forced into situations which require deadly force, that's part of the job.




Well, many times they are put into situations which do not require deadly force, and they just happen to kill unarmed black people, or people who have already been subdued (Be sure to watch this first one, now):






How about the woman who "committed suicide" while in police custody? How about the cops who charged a man for bleeding on their uniforms, after beating the shit out of him, because they didn't have anything else on him?

These are thugs. You should oppose thugs. You should oppose these men.




"it was started to target minority groups"

Proof?

Yes, cops who commit unjustified murder do get charged. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/11/former-north-charleston-officer-who-shot-walter-scott-indicted-on-federal-civil-rights-violation/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland ; Yeah, it was ruled a suicide. She acted like s stupid bitch the day she was pulled over, who's fault was that?


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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23434970 - 07/12/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)





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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23435217 - 07/12/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.





You are correct that the actual number is greater. However your narrative around it is incorrect and actually your approach completely incorrect. Here, washington post explains it simply.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.0e4fa8fd9ed8
Quote:

In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.








"unless you first adjust for population"

Which really makes little sense, because it's more important to adjust for interactions with law enforcement, when that's factored in there's NO racial bias against blacks, in fact whites get the shitty end of the stick.





please explain why that makes no sense? when looking at the rates things are happening to a ratio of a whole it makes no sense to put the rate of happenings against the size of the ratio?

it makes absolute sense. can we get a comment from someone who has taken a statistic course?

you try so hard to demean black folk for someone that's not a racist


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23435965 - 07/12/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

"it was started to target minority groups"

Proof?




I mean... two seconds of searching will prove that, but you are on a drug forum, so I would expect you to know these things.

Quote:

Yes, cops who commit unjustified murder do get charged. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/11/former-north-charleston-officer-who-shot-walter-scott-indicted-on-federal-civil-rights-violation/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland ; Yeah, it was ruled a suicide. She acted like s stupid bitch the day she was pulled over, who's fault was that?




I'm kindof surprised that this is all you have in response to that post of mine.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23437339 - 07/13/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:

"it was started to target minority groups"

Proof?




I mean... two seconds of searching will prove that, but you are on a drug forum, so I would expect you to know these things.

Quote:

Yes, cops who commit unjustified murder do get charged. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/05/11/former-north-charleston-officer-who-shot-walter-scott-indicted-on-federal-civil-rights-violation/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland ; Yeah, it was ruled a suicide. She acted like s stupid bitch the day she was pulled over, who's fault was that?




I'm kindof surprised that this is all you have in response to that post of mine.




The war of drugs has RESULTED in a disproportional amount of arrests, convictions, and incarceration rates for minorities, that does NOT mean the laws were intended to create that outcome.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23437370 - 07/13/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Doesn't that tell you something?  The statistics clearly show us whites are shot and killed by the police by almost double, why doesn't the media report on it?  Because it's boring news, the media wants to script a narrative that doesn't even exist, looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.





You are correct that the actual number is greater. However your narrative around it is incorrect and actually your approach completely incorrect. Here, washington post explains it simply.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.0e4fa8fd9ed8
Quote:

In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.








"unless you first adjust for population"

Which really makes little sense, because it's more important to adjust for interactions with law enforcement, when that's factored in there's NO racial bias against blacks, in fact whites get the shitty end of the stick.





please explain why that makes no sense? when looking at the rates things are happening to a ratio of a whole it makes no sense to put the rate of happenings against the size of the ratio?

it makes absolute sense. can we get a comment from someone who has taken a statistic course?

you try so hard to demean black folk for someone that's not a racist




This black Harvard Professor did his own study looking for the huge discrepancy that you believe in, what he found- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0

"officers in Houston were about 20 percent less likely to shoot if the suspects were black. This estimate was not precise, and firmer conclusions would require more data. But in various models controlling for different factors and using different definitions of tense situation, Mr.Fryer found that blacks were either less likely to be shot or there was no difference between blacks and whites."

This is how you see if there's a racial bias in police shootings, NOT based on the total populations of each race. :huxleyfacepalm:


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23437934 - 07/13/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

You can pick and choose to do it how ever you want qman, (I'm gonna just roll w this one because it shows the same end result) as long as you recognize what the data shows. which is systemic injustice for ppl of color in their interactions w police.

from your article:
Quote:

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.




Quote:

The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — those at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.

The counterintuitive results provoked debate after the study was posted on Monday, mostly about the volume of police encounters and the scope of the data. Mr. Fryer emphasizes that the work is not the definitive analysis of police shootings, and that more data would be needed to understand the country as a whole. This work focused only on what happens once the police have stopped civilians, not on the risk of being stopped at all. Other research has shown that blacks are more likely to be stopped by the police.




Quote:

The study, a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper, relied on reports filled out by police officers and on police departments willing to share those reports. Recent videos of police shootings have led to questions about the reliability of such accounts. But the results were largely the same whether or not Mr. Fryer used information from narratives by officers.

Such results may not be true in every city. The cities Mr. Fryer used to examine officer-involved shootings make up only about 4 percent of the nation’s population, and serve more black citizens than average.

Moreover, the results do not mean that the general public’s perception of racism in policing is misguided. Lethal uses of force are exceedingly rare. There were 1.6 million arrests in Houston in the years Mr. Fryer studied. Officers fired their weapons 507 times. What is far more common are nonlethal uses of force.

And in these uses of force, Mr. Fryer found racial differences, which is in accord with public perception and other studies.




so please double check your rhetoric because this article supports only your data claim (slightly) but not your narrative of ppl of non-white american cultures being less than.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23438048 - 07/13/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
You can pick and choose to do it how ever you want qman, (I'm gonna just roll w this one because it shows the same end result) as long as you recognize what the data shows. which is systemic injustice for ppl of color in their interactions w police.

from your article:
Quote:

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.




Quote:

The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — those at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.

The counterintuitive results provoked debate after the study was posted on Monday, mostly about the volume of police encounters and the scope of the data. Mr. Fryer emphasizes that the work is not the definitive analysis of police shootings, and that more data would be needed to understand the country as a whole. This work focused only on what happens once the police have stopped civilians, not on the risk of being stopped at all. Other research has shown that blacks are more likely to be stopped by the police.




Quote:

The study, a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper, relied on reports filled out by police officers and on police departments willing to share those reports. Recent videos of police shootings have led to questions about the reliability of such accounts. But the results were largely the same whether or not Mr. Fryer used information from narratives by officers.

Such results may not be true in every city. The cities Mr. Fryer used to examine officer-involved shootings make up only about 4 percent of the nation’s population, and serve more black citizens than average.

Moreover, the results do not mean that the general public’s perception of racism in policing is misguided. Lethal uses of force are exceedingly rare. There were 1.6 million arrests in Houston in the years Mr. Fryer studied. Officers fired their weapons 507 times. What is far more common are nonlethal uses of force.

And in these uses of force, Mr. Fryer found racial differences, which is in accord with public perception and other studies.




so please double check your rhetoric because this article supports only your data claim (slightly) but not your narrative of ppl of non-white american cultures being less than.




It was a small sample study so take it for what it is, a small sample. Either way, Mr.Fryer has enough integrity to post his results even if they were counter to his initial suspicions.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23438355 - 07/13/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

haha, now it is a small sample study that should be taken for face value and the guy conducting the survey is simply pedestaled for his honesty.

you're a laugh riot qman. picking and choosing what data represents for yourself.

here's the catch tho, if you want to use the data that Fryer found equalizing the instances of lethal force between races then you must also accept it when the same data finds that uses of non-lethal force did have racial disparities in accord to public perception and other studies.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23438496 - 07/13/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
haha, now it is a small sample study that should be taken for face value and the guy conducting the survey is simply pedestaled for his honesty.

you're a laugh riot qman. picking and choosing what data represents for yourself.

here's the catch tho, if you want to use the data that Fryer found equalizing the instances of lethal force between races then you must also accept it when the same data finds that uses of non-lethal force did have racial disparities in accord to public perception and other studies.




I never denied that racial disparities exist in the criminal justice system, the debate is why the disparities exist.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23438514 - 07/13/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

James T Harris



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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23439062 - 07/13/16 08:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I can't keep track of what exactly which way you're trying to defend yourself from thread to thread, my bad.

in this one it's just a defense of cops and say that the reactions of officers are generally justified if only people would follow orders.

nah, that's bootlicker talk, enjoy voting for trump :rolleyes:


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23439210 - 07/13/16 09:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Speaking of Trump, he's winning in 2 key swing states (Florida and Penn.) and tied in Ohio.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/swing-states-2016-election/2016/07/trump-has-edge-in-key-states-225442

Looks like Trump might take it.


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23439919 - 07/14/16 04:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Speaking of Trump, he's winning in 2 key swing states (Florida and Penn.) and tied in Ohio.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/swing-states-2016-election/2016/07/trump-has-edge-in-key-states-225442

Looks like Trump might take it.





It's early


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: sweeper54]
    #23454046 - 07/18/16 07:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Airclay, ask yourself this question: if we could somehow flip a magic switch that removes all racism, conscious or subconscious, from the minds of police officers, would the percentage of black people shot by police drop down overnight from 30 to 12 (their proportion of the population)?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #23454429 - 07/18/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

airclay believes the law should not be upheld when dealing with blacks because so many end up being jailed and some are shot. In the mind of the liberal they should just a get a free dindu-nuffin' pass so the statistics that damn them can be redacted.

Fact is blacks by their proportion do the most crime and certainly so against whites, which is why they run foul of law enforcement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males

The police know they're 18 and half times more likely to be shot by a black than a black by a police officer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

One side shows restraint and the other a total homicidal hatred. But you won't get Obama show support of the thin blue line when he sides the violent thug; e.g.he'd rather claim a gangbanga-purple-dank-doped-violent-thug like Trayvon as his son. Needless to say the support of criminal scum at the Presidential level and down started the BLM movement regardless of the fact Zimmerman was proven by peers to have acted in self-defence.

Similar happens in Australia as we've foolishly imported Sudanese and Somali pests who do the same. Of course, point this out and you're vilified as a racist. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/academic-stirs-fight-over-race/2005/07/15/1121429359329.html

Even the police won't admit to the problem and hide the facts. Gee, I thought Sub-Saharan African enrichment would be a good thing?!
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/measuring_the_rise_of_the_victorian_feral/asc/P40/

The Aborigines are similar and we now have what could be called tribal African v's Aboriginal warfare with one another. http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/perth-teenager-critical-after-wild-brawl-in-garrawheen/news-story/f2d22558f5952a859bd73d65c500f075

You'd think they'd get along, but like in the US, the greatest killer of blacks is other blacks. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/a-matter-of-black-lives/399386/

It's the way it is with blacks to get stabby, rape their children, welfare mooch and fail at school then whine ol'YT owes them for all their failings. They have a low sense of self-control and high compulsion. Probably fine to have if scratching a living as a nomadic hunter and gatherer with no written language, but not so useful in civilised society where planning and scope are critical requirements. http://www.ambrosekane.com/2015/05/03/is-black-dysfunction-genetic-a-reply-to-a-major-contradiction-in-hbd-theory-part-2/

http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/low-impulse-control-poor-future-time.html

Of course I expect the libbies to froth at the mouth on this as their world that all are equal crashes down around them. But there are ample news articles and statistics to verify what I have said. http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/

Of course the US liberal media stonewalls much of the black on white crime. Here's a good channel to fill in the dots. https://www.youtube.com/user/ColinFlaherty712

Worth watching:



--------------------
Convert Metric and Imperial.


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