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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426292 - 07/09/16 11:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
There is no outcry when people don't get killed enough.  The outcry is when people get killed too much.  That's why there is outcry over black shootings.



You mean like males and younger people?



What?!?  You previously said it's justified that blacks are being shot at 20 times the rate of whites, but now you're saying young white males are getting killed too much?  :wtf:

Quote:

qman said:
You're still dogging the truth, why are males getting killed at a much higher rate than females? 

Why are younger people getting killed at a much higher rate than older people?

It's hard to face the hypocrisy in your reasoning, throwing that race card is just such a addictive habit isn't it?



Can you be specific about what truth I'm dodging?

The debate seems to be about whether or not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops.  I'm arguing no one should be killed unless a cop's life is clearly in danger.




I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426319 - 07/09/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.



I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426351 - 07/09/16 11:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
I'm saying that we both know it's rational that males and younger people get killed at a higher rate than females and older people (because of the lack of outrage), I'm also saying that it's also rational that blacks are killed at a higher rate than white people.

"The debate seems to be about whether is not it's ok to kill blacks simply because their race poses a statistically higher threat to cops"

No, that's NOT the debate, the debate is whether those demographics behave statistically worst and that provides the disparity in the killings, not bigotry.

It's the same reason killings against males are at a higher rate, they are more violent than females. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not sex.

It's the same reason killings against younger people are kiled at a higher rate, they are more violent then older people. They get killed more because of their BEHAVIOR, not age.



I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.

Michael Brown got killed by a cop, but it was determined it was justifiable.  Many people falsely assumed he was "killed without probable cause", they were wrong.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426420 - 07/09/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.



But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426458 - 07/09/16 12:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've agreed with those things many, many posts ago.

And in that post I explained that the outrage is because blacks are being killed without probable cause.

You argued that it is justified because blacks are statistically more likely to be a threat.




If blacks are getting killed without probable cause the cop will be prosecuted for that crime.



But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:

"There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder"

Of course, because no system of justice is perfect and there will always be bad cops.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426523 - 07/09/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:



No, that's NOT what I said.  During the jury selection process, the defense gets to object to jurors they don't want.  Do you think they will try to get the fairest jurors, or the ones that are most likely to vote in a white cop's favor?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426542 - 07/09/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But that's the problem.  A jury of racists is selected who think the color of a person's skin gives a cop probable cause to kill.  There are plenty of examples of cops getting away with murder.




"A jury of racists"

Let me get this straight, cops, prosecutors, judges, and now jury members are ALL racist. :rolleyes:



No, that's NOT what I said.  During the jury selection process, the defense gets to object to jurors they don't want.  Do you think they will try to get the fairest jurors, or the ones that are most likely to vote in a white cop's favor?




So didn't the prosecutor take an oath to do his job to his fullest capability?   

The defense does everything it can to win, the prosecutor does everything he can to win.

Are you suggesting that the majority of prosecutors are deliberately sabotaging their own cases against guilty cops?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426631 - 07/09/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23426656 - 07/09/16 01:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23426722 - 07/09/16 01:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them.



Trump has made it very clear that the country is still extremely racist.

Quote:

qman said:
Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?



Not necessarily.  It's important that we don't send innocent people to jail, so the system gives the defense an advantage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman] * 2
    #23427694 - 07/09/16 08:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?







--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23428857 - 07/10/16 09:51 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's meaningless is your last post.  Maybe you can explain why you think it's meaningless that 20 times more black teens are killed by police even after adjusting for crime rates?




Because the corresponding stats, such as how many whites/blacks resist arrest, type of incident, or point weapons is missing.

There are too many possible variables to say.

It's like the tools that say more blacks are suspended from school while not telling us why the suspensions occur in the first place.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23428888 - 07/10/16 10:03 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: airclay]
    #23428890 - 07/10/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course I'm not suggesting that.  You seem to be filling in for our resident Straw Man King.

In order for a cop to be found guilty of murder, the jury has to unanimously agree.  Even if the jury is only half racist, the defense can win.




Dam, the US must be full of racists if it's so easy to get a jury half full of them. They're so racist that they won't even bring a cop killer to a trial, you really have no faith in your fellow American citizens.  I guess a black jury let OJ go free, so it's the American way!

Many people have issue with the grand jury process, do you want to see some sort of change to the existing policy?










Jane Elliott is a racist bully nut job.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23430861 - 07/10/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's meaningless is your last post.  Maybe you can explain why you think it's meaningless that 20 times more black teens are killed by police even after adjusting for crime rates?




Because the corresponding stats, such as how many whites/blacks resist arrest, type of incident, or point weapons is missing.



Please feel free to post those stats.  But black teens are killed by police at 20 times the rate of white teens, even after adjusting for crime rates.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23431633 - 07/11/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Not sure if this has been posted, but it's a relevant study out of Harvard. Haven't had time to do more than skim it, but results are interesting.

NYT article on the study, study itself. Note that it is only a working paper, which means it hasn't had rigorous peer-review yet.

In a nutshell, studying police departments in Texas, Florida, and California, the author finds that black and Hispanic individuals were more likely to encounter police force (such as handcuffs, use of hands, drawn weapon, etc.), but were equally likely to be shot, either fatally or non-fatally. I think the bias in use of force is not particularly surprising, but it's interesting to see that it doesn't carry over to lethal force. Like I said, I've not yet read it to see how convincing the data are, or what support they offer for explaining the discrepancy, but it definitely provides some context.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Edited by BoldAsLove (07/11/16 04:54 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #23431894 - 07/11/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

the environment here in dallas seems absolutely toxic. there's a lot of tension on the streets and social media is increasingly filled with fascism from all sides of the issue. for the first time ever in my life, i want to disengage from public discourse.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: millzy]
    #23431958 - 07/11/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlineqman
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432639 - 07/11/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Scum of Dallas celebrating the shooting of cops.



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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Dallas shootings [Re: qman]
    #23432706 - 07/11/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I don't have a lot of respect for black lives matter, but I do respect some of their issues. There are many times that I disapprove of their way of "resolving" those issues.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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