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OfflineCrobih
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The new era of politics
    #2342138 - 02/16/04 04:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The time has come to remove that oligarchy and to place the democracy. Thanks to the internet and true democratical power, we can start the new sort of politics. Open politics. Now, I will copy paste the document that is about this idea. Wait a minute.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2342149 - 02/16/04 04:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OPEN SOURCE CONCEPT

The open source (open source code) concept is tightly related to the idea that the individual working for the common benefit, works for his or her own benefit at the same time. This principle is especially meaningful in the software domain, since the issue here is information that is immaterial. A programmer who accepts to publish the source code of his program loses nothing, except the possibility of selling his closed idea (program) and making profit. On the contrary, (s)he gains a lot from the whole open source community, in the form of consulting and assistance in his or her work. By all means the most famous example of open source software is the GNU/Linux OS, whose increasing quality in the last few years proves that the idea of open source is very feasible in practice.

The open source concept was not imaginable before the advent of the internet, because there used to be no medium suitable for the distribution of source code. Moreover, the advent of the internet has brought about the new possibility of implementing the open source idea in other domains.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2342156 - 02/16/04 04:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OPEN POLITICS

One of the domains where the open source concept can be applied is, logically, politics. The intuitive idea that politics should be dealt with for the sake of common benefit is easily related to the open source concept.

Political forces that really work for the benefit of the whole community consent, without hesitation, to complete public forthrightness. This forthrightness is of multiple use to open political forces: it grants them full people's legitimacy, which ensures them a significantly more powerful impact, and it gives them access to whole nation's consulting; since everybody can get information on all their activities, everybody can contribute to the realization of the project of social progress.

As the first interactive mass-medium, internet offers amazing possibilites for political engagement. Thanks to technology, it is possible to have access to great quantities of information, which makes practical dealing with open and transparent politics possible for the first time.
On the other hand, the internet can move the cross-organization of political subjects to a completely new level, where communication flows much faster and much more efficaciously.

To sum up, internet is the ideal medium for political dialogue, but there are not yet any specialized services adapted to political communication anywhere in the world. Likewise, political engagement on the level of the state requires a service with adequate possiblities on the level of the state.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2342199 - 02/16/04 04:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Crobih!
Out of nowhere!

The link in your signature is dead btw.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Anno]
    #2342228 - 02/16/04 04:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Anno! :smile: :smile: :smile:
I am in politics 0-24. We are starting Internet revolution :laugh:.
BTW, bastards. They killed the supplier discussion forum :argh:


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Offlined33p
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2345998 - 02/17/04 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Open source means death. Crackers can easily spot insecurities in the code and can write harmful programs to take advantage. If the win2k source was released a large portion of the business world would come to a hault overnight.

And as for open politics, the mass majority is entirely self involved and often dumb. I dont want these people having much power. Our forefathers recognized this and made the us a constitutional republic.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: d33p]
    #2348872 - 02/18/04 05:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Its quiet oposite. Linux have no problems with worms or viruses that massively invaded us windows users these days. Cause eversy single person makes pathces that update system all the time. In contrary, windows have no millions of people who upgrade system stability all the time.

PS. About dumb people. Do you consider you smart? Cause, I noticed that there is no dumb person, just the others. Its queit hyporcritcal attitude based on the mass media brain wash.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2348875 - 02/18/04 05:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ps. Do you find Bush junior be a smart guy? I do not.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: d33p]
    #2348987 - 02/18/04 06:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the mass majority is entirely self involved and often dumb.




I love the way this idea gets bandied about!Its a nice way to massage ones ego, as you are obviously excluding yourself from this supposedly homogenous mass majority.

Basically it is lazy thinking with no real basis in fact. Sure there are stupid people out there but are they really the majority?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2348991 - 02/18/04 06:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the reason Linux doesnt get attacked is because hackers dont really target it. If hackers put the same effort into attacking linux systems as they do into attacking windows then thr linux community might struggle to deal with the problem. A large portion of hackers probabaly use Linux as their favoured O/S so why would they attack it?!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2350811 - 02/18/04 02:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

the mass majority is entirely self involved and often dumb. 




I love the way this idea gets bandied about!Its a nice way to massage ones ego, as you are obviously excluding yourself from this supposedly homogenous mass majority.




Very, very cool observation. I really need it :smile:. Thank you!

Quote:

Basically it is lazy thinking with no real basis in fact. Sure there are stupid people out there but are they really the majority?




Even if "stupid" people are majority, these people are smart enough to choose better. That is all we need from them. And that special ability of "stupid" people is just a regular common sense we all witness every day.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2350827 - 02/18/04 02:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I think the reason Linux doesnt get attacked is because hackers dont really target it. If hackers put the same effort into attacking linux systems as they do into attacking windows then thr linux community might struggle to deal with the problem. A large portion of hackers probabaly use Linux as their favoured O/S so why would they attack it?!




It does not really matter. Though, knowing several Linux freaks, they spend all the time to find that stuff and fix it and show their community. I was quiet suprised when Ive heard what stuff they do. Because of doing.

It makes me believe that new political elite, new generation of politicians gonna follow simmilar principle. Though, reward we get through these guys is much much much bigger than one OS such as Linux.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2350986 - 02/18/04 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crobih said:
Ps. Do you find Bush junior be a smart guy? I do not.



And what do you think of people who call the younger Bush junior, when he is not?

There's a George H. W. Bush and a George W. Bush. No Sr., no Jr.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2351720 - 02/18/04 06:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"If hackers put the same effort into attacking linux systems as they do into attacking windows then thr linux community might struggle to deal with the problem."

Well on the other hand, like he said, there would be millions of people working on the positive side, so as soon as "bad people" did something bad to the system, there would be many times more "good people" countering that action.


--------------------
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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2351810 - 02/18/04 06:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

the mass majority is entirely self involved and often dumb.




I love the way this idea gets bandied about!Its a nice way to massage ones ego, as you are obviously excluding yourself from this supposedly homogenous mass majority.

Basically it is lazy thinking with no real basis in fact. Sure there are stupid people out there but are they really the majority?




Unfortunately, when you blast a public with movie drama, reality TV, consumerism, etc...people tend to develop the wrong ideas and skills for being an intellegent self aware being.
Such groups can be manipulated by 'what they think is best' by people in positions of power and influence or media organisations.
But is this dumbing down of society intentional?...i don't know...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlined33p
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2351940 - 02/18/04 07:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If Al Sharpton said he would offer reparations to all blacks, there would be many who would vote for him soley beacuse of this even though it would a joke.

Kerry's new plan for the economy is a joke and would never work in the real world but someone just hearing about it would not know that. They might vote him without knowing the truth showing they are ignorant on the subject.

By self-involved i meant most people vote for someone who offers them something. They do not look at the bigger picture. So not the best people to be voting.

By dumb i meant most people do not concern themselves with politics and are therefore ignorant. They vote again for the wrongs reasons.


--------------------
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Offlined33p
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2351957 - 02/18/04 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crobih said:
Even if "stupid" people are majority, these people are smart enough to choose better. That is all we need from them. And that special ability of "stupid" people is just a regular common sense we all witness every day.




Ok so you think that this ignorant majority is smart enough to choose better? explain these

Drug War
Slavery
Afirmative Action
Graduated Tax

And these are just a few supported or at least once supported by the relative majority.


--------------------
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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2352045 - 02/18/04 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"But is this dumbing down of society intentional?"

you don't know? of COURSE its intentional rofl - its proven that television and movies and stuff totally ZONE PEOPLE OUT.. If they didn't want this happening, they would have changed things long ago rofl

Its so much easier to tell us what to think when we're not thinking for ourselves, and what is modern government's job? To tell us what to think so we'll back them up on whatever fucking evil-ass bullshit business-plan they have put together


--------------------
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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: d33p]
    #2353754 - 02/19/04 06:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Drug War
Slavery
Afirmative Action
Graduated Tax

And these are just a few supported or at least once supported by the relative majority.




This is the whole point!!!! We do not know if the majority really do support these initiatives because these individual matters have never been put to the vote. If there was actually a nationwide debate on the drug war and those who opposed it were able to present their arguements to the people with the same amount of airtime and column inches, before the matter was put to the vote, Id say the outcome would by no means be a foregone conclusion in support of continuing the drug war.

And if you are citing the above (Drug war, graduated tax etc) as examples of the stupidity of the mass majority then obviously you are highlighting the stupidity of those who currently rule us..in which case what difference does it make if we try open democracy anyway?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2353761 - 02/19/04 06:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Im not certain that media manipulation is cooly calculated to keep people dumb and compliant but id say im 95% sure. Take a look at this Edward Bernays
Obvioulsy the techniques of manipulation used by Bernay's have been refined and improved over the years which is why im almost certain the manipulation via media which we see today is indeed planned.

This used to be one of the things that worried me about direct democracy, the fact that a powerful media could lead society around by the nose to vote for whatever the controlling powers want but as I thought about it I realised that anything that makes it harder for the controlling powers to wield their self serving interest has got to be a good thing. I definitely believe open democracy would do this.


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Edited by GazzBut (02/19/04 10:06 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: d33p]
    #2354209 - 02/19/04 09:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Drug War

Nah, 100 years ago you could buy heroin over the counter. No-one gave a fuck. A few politicians and a compliant media whipped up the scare campaign.

Slavery

Nah, most poor whites realised slavery drove down wages and destroyed jobs. The people pushing it were the tiny rich minority who could make an absolute fortune off it.

Afirmative Action

The majority of people are for this? How do you figure?

Graduated Tax

Rich people pay more tax than poor people? Sure that makes sense.

The majority are far sharper than the elite minority take them for.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2354280 - 02/19/04 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Old-school slavery has been replaced with new-age slavery where people don't even realize they're slaves


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: Strumpling]
    #2354286 - 02/19/04 10:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Old-school slavery has been replaced with new-age slavery where people don't even realize they're slaves

how is someone a slave without realizing it?


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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2354296 - 02/19/04 10:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nah, 100 years ago you could buy heroin over the counter. No-one gave a fuck. A few politicians and a compliant media whipped up the scare campaign.

and today, the majority supports the drug war. the fact that people are generally stupid, gullible, paranoid, and easily swayed by mass media is not a vindication of democracy, it's a shortcoming of it.

Nah, most poor whites realised slavery drove down wages and destroyed jobs. The people pushing it were the tiny rich minority who could make an absolute fortune off it.

where did you read that?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2354669 - 02/19/04 12:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and today, the majority supports the drug war.the fact that people are generally stupid, gullible, paranoid, and easily swayed by mass media is not a vindication of democracy, it's a shortcoming of it.

I don't think they are that easy to sway. When you think of the countless billions poured into getting across one point of view for the last 100 years and look at the countries in Europe rapidly adopting decriminalisation it's amazing how resilient people are to bullshit.

where did you read that?

Any history of slavery. Who'se jobs do you think the slaves took?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2354730 - 02/19/04 12:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Its like I said its a new type of slavery, not really in the conventional sense of the word.

I consider one a slave when they are working for a large machine that they don't know the goals and plans of.

I don't know why I'd answer you on this question because I already know we're not going to agree, Mush, but that's my view..

When the average cubicle-worker is sitting at his/her desk for their beer-money or whatever, there are guys making money off of them, guys USING THEM, guys who don't give a shit about them, guys willing to crack the whip if they were allowed to...

I just can't get over the fact that WE ARE BEING USED, and not for nice happy peaceful lovely reasons either. Chalk it up as paranoia or whatever, but that's how I feel.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: Strumpling]
    #2354982 - 02/19/04 01:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and you have a right to your opinion, but the fact is that voluntary labor is not slavery, no matter how small you may be respective to the organization you are working for. if you have the choice to reject the employment offer, you are certainly no slave.

of course you are being "used". they're not employing you because they're good people and they want to pay you and give you a nice desk to sit at. you're employed because you're useful to them.


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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2355011 - 02/19/04 02:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think they are that easy to sway. When you think of the countless billions poured into getting across one point of view for the last 100 years and look at the countries in Europe rapidly adopting decriminalisation it's amazing how resilient people are to bullshit.

the fact remains that the majority of americans support the drug war. the majority support violating the rights of a minority, and that is wrong. it's a clear example of the major shortcoming of democracy.

Any history of slavery.

are there a lot of these historical accounts that support that view? are any of them on the internet perhaps?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2355271 - 02/19/04 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the fact remains that the majority of americans support the drug war

At this point in time perhaps. 100 years ago the majority supported heroin being sold over the counter. What is your point?

it's a clear example of the major shortcoming of democracy.

No, it's a clear example of the dangers of a compliant media subservient to power. Read "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2355279 - 02/19/04 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the fact remains that the majority of americans support the drug war.




Source please?


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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2355466 - 02/19/04 03:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

At this point in time perhaps. 100 years ago the majority supported heroin being sold over the counter. What is your point?

that the majority sometimes supports policies which are wrong.

No, it's a clear example of the dangers of a compliant media subservient to power. Read "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky.

even without mass media, the threat is still there. oppressive religious fundamentalism for example has thrived in many places in the world, supported by a majority, long before mass media.


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Offlined33p
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2356826 - 02/19/04 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Nah, 100 years ago you could buy heroin over the counter. No-one gave a fuck. A few politicians and a compliant media whipped up the scare campaign.




Heroin was only first synthed 130 years ago with its first use starting only 100 years ago. When nobody really knows about something its kind of hard for them to have an opinion on it. If you walk up to the average person and mention a legal RC will they have an opinion on it? No.

Quote:


Nah, most poor whites realized slavery drove down wages and destroyed jobs. The people pushing it were the tiny rich minority who could make an absolute fortune off it.




So you are saying that at no point in America's history the majority of whites thought of blacks as sub human. The fact is Americans were taught to believe blacks were sub human and that slavery was the right thing to do and they did. If you dont recognize that you are ignorant.

Quote:


The majority of people are for this? How do you figure?




So your saying its the rich white minority who is pushing this?

Quote:


Rich people pay more tax than poor people? Sure that makes sense.




It makes sense that they would pay more, it doesnt make sense they are given higher rates. Its sad if you cant see that. If you were alive in america in the '30s would you have voted for Long and his "share the wealth" proposition.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2357931 - 02/20/04 02:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ahh the hallowed voluntary agreement. Because the employee can reject an offer of employment then there is no coercion involved and whatever the two parties agree upon is fair and there is therefore no need for government intervention in the form of minimum wage law or enforcing basic workers rights etc? Gimme a break.


--------------------
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Offlinezeronio
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #2357971 - 02/20/04 03:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The Open Source concept is really amazing and the software developed this way is outperforming commercial competition. I think that most of the software shroomery runs on is licensed under OpenSource or GNU.
I already thought of how that concept could be applied to other areas too, but I'm not sure what you mean with open politics.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: zeronio]
    #2358176 - 02/20/04 05:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think Crobih is referring to the idea that people should vote on issues instead of merely choosing a political party to make all the decisions for them. (My apologies if this is not what you are referring to Crobih!)

Many people seem to exhibit a knee jerk reaction of "couldnt/shouldnt happen" when confronted with this idea.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: d33p]
    #2358180 - 02/20/04 05:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What I dont understand is how you can use any of these issues as an arguement against open democracy when they all occured under pretty much the same system of democracy we have now.


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Anonymous

Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2358825 - 02/20/04 10:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

there are restraints set forth in the from of a constitution. perhaps these restraints aren't effective enough in some cases, but it's no argument against the restraints themselves.

what's wrong with having something like a bill of rights? there are certain things which shouldn't be violated, even with the consensus of a majority.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2370639 - 02/23/04 02:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

what's wrong with having something like a bill of rights? there are certain things which shouldn't be violated, even with the consensus of a majority.




I might not like some of the things the majority would choose to do. In fact im convinced of that. Im also convinced that the majority would not vote to reintroduce slavery or any racist policies etc. I just dont agree a minority should make all the decisions for the majority.


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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2371960 - 02/23/04 12:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I just dont agree a minority should make all the decisions for the majority.

of course it shouldn't. i don't think that either. no one should ever make decisions for anyone else (save perhaps their own children), majority support or not.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2372004 - 02/23/04 12:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How does this mesh with dictatorial corporate structure? Where one man makes decisions affecting everyone else in the company?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: ]
    #2372637 - 02/23/04 03:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In the complex world we live in decisions need to be made which will affect many. Are you suggesting every man becomes an island and we disintergrate society as we know it? Because thats the only way you will arrive at a situation where nobody makes decisions on the behalf of others.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: GazzBut]
    #2377135 - 02/25/04 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hello. There have been many questins asked and repliead in the mean time.
So, I gonna concern to several last ones.

d33p. People make picture of the world thanks to the particles they get from it. Considering political reallity, your perception is completely based on the mass media. Cause little number of people you really know are not reprensetative ones and you find them be not appropriate ones to be the base of your political entity. On the other hand, you see many people around who you really do not know. They are ignorant, stupid, narrow minded etc. As the mass media says. But, look to yourself. You show the same characteristics as those ones. You are also igorant, stupid and narrow minded. To those people, off course. You think you are really right about the issues, as those people think they are right. But  neither of you is right. Cause you have some major points that justify your points, but in the same time, those people have the other major points that justify their points. But mass media does not try to understand the problem, but they keep offering you an alternative. And you choose what you think its more right. Giving up from many important facts that collide with your misinterpreted parts. So, all in all, oligarchy keeps you againts the people who are actually just like you. Even they belong to the other "group", they share the same beliefs as you do. They do honor peace, love, unity, respect. They do respect dignity, honesty, bravery, unselfishness. They respect the same things you do. But you find them stupid, as they find you be an idiot. And you both are right. And wrong in the same way.
Because we all are the people. We all tend to the same things. Maximum freedom and social harmony.

GazzBut. You managed pretty good when I was not here. Even better than I would. Respect. I like your open democracy phrase. Though we call it Internet democracy. But the name does not matter, even I maybe even prefer yours. Because it explains a lot.

So, what is the major strenght of the open politics? In the fact that d33p and those on the other side can realize they are not enemies of each other, that they do have a common interests and inthe fact they finnaly can get along to realize their common interests. Making possible to get the most possible people to solve the social problems. Some people define politics as peacefull solution of the social problems. Though, there is no more oligarchy who stands for war (in that way they keep us in pen) or other social disturbance that keeps us way from the social progress.

Getting to the fundaments of this idea, you can notice that free flow of information on the political level disables any sort of manipualtion against the public interests. On the all level of society. From the Bushs war on Iraq, to the car shop who sells broken cars. This political concept tends towards the Utopia. It is really hard to understand it from out point of view, but I will try to explain it to you. How does it look like, living in the paradise.

Living in the society where we are not affraid of each others, we can open ourselves. We can love. We do not have to be closed, affraid of loosing existential basis. We do not have to look to potential enemies in every single person. Off course, need for the power will still exist. The need for doing something crazy. And so on. But. In this healthy society, growing up, getting to know our limits we find the place in the society that has the full legitimacy from the whole society. So, you do not have to be affraid cause you maybe took something it does not belong to you. Off course, the vain ones will have to meet their vanity. The fact they are not perfect. And they gonna need to start love themselves, those unperfect beings. The World we are going to is the World finnaly free of hypocricy. Free of lie.

I may sound crazy to you. But really. Think about it, what does the social harmony offers to us. And no. It is not a boring place, but quiet contrary. Cause people will be able to do whatever they wish to. And boredom is not the interest of anybody of us. And it is not possible, because, panta rei. Everything flows and we will have to flow with the stream of life. Being harmonical part with full responsibility for this World.

Does anybody remember Sox Sja? The place we are going to is pretty simmilar to the Sox Sja :smile:

Good night.


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OfflineMushy86
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Crobih]
    #17223399 - 11/15/12 09:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Am I the only one who thinks depopulation is a good idea?


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Mushy86] * 2
    #17223489 - 11/15/12 09:48 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You're definitely the only one who thinks bumping an 8 year old thread is a good idea.


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OfflineMind Transcribing
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Re: The new era of politics [Re: Enlil]
    #17223662 - 11/15/12 10:41 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're definitely the only one who thinks bumping an 8 year old thread is a good idea.



:laugh2:


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