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DividedQuantum
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Random chance?
#23420939 - 07/07/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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"'Naught happens for nothing, but everything from a ground and of necessity' (Leucippus; see, e.g., Russell). This is the law of necessity. Some writers claim to be comfortable with the idea that there is in nature, at its most basic level, an irreducible element of chance. I, however, find unthinkable the idea that between two possibilities there can be a choice having no basis whatsoever. Chance is an idea useful for dealing with a world partly unknown to us. But it has no rational place among the ultimate constituents of nature." --Henry P. Stapp
Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance? Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along? Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos? Does God "play dice with the universe"?
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deff
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personally i lean towards the idea that everything is intentional, that there is no chance. that said, i don't subscribe to pre-determinism, i feel it is an on-going co-creative process, and that while God doesn't play dice, individual consciousnesses as offshoots of God make intentional choices moment by moment. 
Charles Eisenstein wrote something interesting about the apparently random movement of photons. He said that it may not be a case of either random chance or some pre-determinism we can't see, but rather that the photons themselves choose their own path out of the possibilities - that they have consciousness and free will it's a neat idea
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Random chance? [Re: deff] 1
#23421313 - 07/07/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like it. I think the following quotes by Professor Stapp are particularly apt:
Quote:
"Consciousness can play a nonredundant causal role in the determination of our actions: it can play the very role that we intuitively feel that it plays. Quantum theory allows your mind and your brain to co-author your physical actions."
"Mind is identified with the process of creation. Everything that exists is created by this process, which consists of a well-ordered sequence of creative acts called events. Any event is prior to all those that follow it in this sequence, and is subsequent to all those that come before it in this sequence. Each creative act is a grasping, or prehension, of all that has been created by prior acts in a novel but unified way."
--Dr. Henry P. Stapp
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deff
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laughingdog
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Do you feel ... events are ... pure chance? ...order or chaos? Does God "play dice with the universe"?
I wonder on what assumptions the question depends?
seems like, for starters:
1) that time ‘exists’
2) that time is one directional
3) that the present moment has duration (else how can anything have stable identity?)
4) that events/objects are somehow interdependent yet separate?
I think some of these have been questioned, in physics and some are perhaps not well defined
by contrast in a dream no event causes another they all have the same cause and are not really separate this may coorespond metaphoricaly to some Eastern metaphysical views
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DividedQuantum
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Good points, those are indeed all more or less unsolved mysteries, at least scientifically. I suppose the discussion so far has made the same assumptions about time that modern science has, which is not necessarily to say they are accurate or the last word. Your post is quite thought-provoking.
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laughingdog
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if we divide the question up into the everyday world, our psychological world, and the world of extreme physics we will also get different aspects.
Einstein who didn’t like randomness, himself said time slowed down the faster one goes, I think…and don’t they say time slows as something falls into a black hole? So I wonder do cause and effect slow down at very high speeds? And what causes time to slow down? I guess they talk of space/time as one field. I wonder do the electrons whirling in their clouds within atoms also slow down as a lump of matter is accelerated? Does acceleration therefore lower the temperature of matter?
It would seem that in the human world the two polarities are both necessary one of: predictability/order/control and on the other hand: spontainety/surprise/adventure are both necessary for our lives.
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DisoRDeR
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Quote:
Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance? Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along? Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos? Does God "play dice with the universe"?
The strength of forces seems a matter of scale, Of degree of difference and distance removed. I'm not sure I can speak to the bottom, Or how intent might warp the folds Of this multidimensional tapestry.
I intuit inquiring impulses though, A base curiosity for naught, Echoing back while Broaching the dark.
Perchance intricacy Emerges, Unstable, Teetering Over Its Home.
I see rotting vibrations and resonance On the long road back to Rome, Stubbing toes.

edit: poetry
Edited by DisoRDeR (07/19/16 03:04 PM)
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remake


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Re: Random chance? [Re: DisoRDeR]
#23421849 - 07/07/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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What if we "play dice" with ourselves. Every worry we are engulfed in is man made. What if we lived in a timeless universe? Isn't time itself just an idea? What's the only truth known? We exist.
Following the clock kills us faster. Following day and night makes us sleepier...following your moment. Stretches to eternity. Your moment. Our moment. The only moment. Is your place within existence. Which is where you are physically right now relative to everyone else. Nothing inside imagination is happening...yet
Basically. What if awareness of where you are is simple and - your - movements are determined by - you?
You can choose to say no. Not be offended. Not care. Walk outside of emotion and habit.
It still leaves something to reaction, only action seems to persist.
Observe yourself within your house. Not within time.
Edited by remake (07/08/16 12:01 AM)
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
It would seem that in the human world the two polarities are both necessary one of: predictability/order/control and on the other hand: spontainety/surprise/adventure are both necessary for our lives.
"Oh random chance!" just doesn't convey the gravity of getting good head.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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beforethedawn
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laughingdog
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Amazing stuff! Thank you!
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sudly
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance? Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along? Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos? Does God "play dice with the universe"?
I believe the laws of nature are deterministic in that physical tendencies can be accurately predicted but I also believe everything in nature not influenced by humans happens by chance.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
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isn’t the dichotomy illusory?
statistical laws rule probability,
hence profits at casinos.
likewise electrons though said to be evading predictability ( http://phys.org/news/2013-05-precision-quantum-trade-off.html ) do just fine creating stable atoms.
also the concept of randomness is relative. it depends on a limited field. If you take a photo of say a chaotic Jackson pollack painting, and then take multiple copies, and make a tiling, you now have order.
Or take a number that is infinite, like pi, for example, how do we know it is random?, at some point in the infinite eternal future it could begin to repeat. So whether it is actually random is unknown, and the universe is infinite.
The Mandelbrot Set is certainly both infinite and patterned, but can we predict ahead of time what we will find at a particular spot? — or even locate a position in something that is continually changing scale?
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DividedQuantum
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It is illusory; essentially we don't even really know what we're talking about at a fundamental level. I think the best we can do is to confine ourselves to the mathematical techniques, and treat aggregate ensembles statistically and (in principle) deterministic systems with continuous functions. Once one gets outside of these rule-of-thumb definitions it gets a bit foggy. Perhaps one day we will find a deeper level from which both chance and causality emerge in the special case.
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laughingdog
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the prime numbers are also somewhere in the middle ground
they occur in pairs frequently, and there is some patterning
but no total predictability
is a dude has some info
called drip divisors
interesting
think maybe on utube
& also website & book
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BrendanFlock
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Well the honest dichotomy is between 1 and zero..or off and on..
For example in a role of a dice..the combination of the different numbers all add up the the number shown necessarily..so that is the 1..and all other numbers are off..so to speak..
Thus you can say that the effect and cause of the dice roll is in probabalistic regards a quantum effect of uncertainty..but at the same time understanding the net effect of cause and effect...
so you can still relate the number shown as astrology/numerology..for example..
But in nature..the randomizer..is that things arent necessarily straight perfectly..though they apply on this basis..for example a branch of a tree...does curve and hex in a way that the buds come from certain protruding knots..but the idea of it actually being created..will not likely be perfectly accounted for..and therefore their is an element of chance.. in excellent regards is a usefull terminology for the chance of effects..and the guiding lines that are abstract..but still an honest determining force in the laws of cause and effect..or growth and growth rate naturally!
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laughingdog
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your posts seem the result of a random verbal generator gone rogue.
the next step might be to actually scramble the spelling of the words as well. That should inhibit some responders.
then you could go on to vary the spacing:
like this: wrhdv cheen msbnb sdec nd cicu mmmsz
then mix in a hint of meaning and some more vowels
worhdv choeken mosbanib sodixes nudice circujdic omommsiz
there are lots of possibilities
you have only just begun to explore
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BrendanFlock
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Really like a game of chance..inside and out is the continuum..recently actuated theories..like the excellent comedy that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an element in design, which is an idea about the landscape of time..which is only measurements of what(?) Growth and change..
reverting to old styles..in verdant green..and the blue algea..is in cultures..that are basically..roundish...but the precise measurements will be novel..and therefore kind of random?
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laughingdog
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Really like a game of chance..inside and out is the continuum..recently actuated theories..like the excellent comedy that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an element in design, which is an idea about the landscape of time..which is only measurements of what(?) Growth and change..
reverting to old styles..in verdant green..and the blue algea..is in cultures..that are basically..roundish...but the precise measurements will be novel..and therefore kind of random?
or it could be
Really like a game inside and out is the continuum.. of recently chance actuated theories..like the excellent design that is in the Gaian Hypothesis...and such...is an an idea about the landscape of time and mind..which is only increments of conceptual Growth and change..
reverting to old styles..in verdant algae..is moldy cultures..that are basically..cellular… but multiplying so precise measurements will be variable..and therefore kind of random? or randomly kind? Which is Really like a game. But why knot? Like a like a mind inside and out of time. Then when they words began to crumple two too too you you u senses mealy neurons short snort cirkuit cut not was ur I thought maybe soon won oh please
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BrendanFlock
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Levels of features..are facist regards..in and out of the common stream of thinking..which is the Zeitgeist...so to speak..even Nietzsche Could Philosophise about nothing!
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BrendanFlock
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Even though we are all made of bread..the quality of the Bread type..is indeed a good Surgeon generals fortune..for which we would all eat the same..or look the same..so our features are neat and Novel..so that we can show people who we are..the bread of life is like a river..and inside that river..is a box..and that is where Quantum mechanics exists..inside a time barrier..which is a Great Barrier reef..towards the comming leaves of time..in trimmy tender..and understanding banter..the Honest and including election takes telemetry..and security inside and out..which is what a knot is..so that we can take a thing to its logical conclusion..means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!
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redgreenvines
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the resolution of cause and effect ranges from sub-microscopic to distant macroscopic, all around and within us. the range includes the strange and "unpredictable" complex behavior of humans.
And since we are all limited in how much we can model in our minds of what is happening at all micro and macro-scopic perspectives in reality as well as the chaotic dance of human minds, there is a huge undecidable - unknowable - curtain of uncertainty that describes if not governs what happens.
what is not random chance is pure fate, but the curtain of uncertainty puts any support of the idea of fate into the category of faith.
But also if you have faith in fate, you ignore the principle of uncertainty where-in no-one could predict, the merest fart of a butterfly that could deflect the thought of a child and engage the action of a parent to distract the attention of a bus driver who could crash into a shopping center and run over the robot that carries c-4 to stop a sniper....
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laughingdog
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!
survive? who is surviving what and for how long? What a short sighted and introverted view.
reminds me of the joke about the aliens in the UFO who come and view earth and report back and say:
"The dominant life form is automobiles, and they have these funny squishy things with legs and arms to maintain, pamper, & exercise them"
Edited by laughingdog (07/10/16 03:06 PM)
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BrendanFlock
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rAQNQuote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
BrendanFlock said: means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!
survive? who is surviving what and for how long? What a short sighted and introverted view.
reminds me of the joke about the aliens in the UFO who come and view earth and report back and say:
"The dominant life form is automobiles, and they have these funny squishy things with legs and arms to maintain, pamper, & exercise them"
LoL!!!
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laughingdog
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yes
it's a funny switch
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: "'Naught happens for nothing, but everything from a ground and of necessity' (Leucippus; see, e.g., Russell). This is the law of necessity. Some writers claim to be comfortable with the idea that there is in nature, at its most basic level, an irreducible element of chance. I, however, find unthinkable the idea that between two possibilities there can be a choice having no basis whatsoever. Chance is an idea useful for dealing with a world partly unknown to us. But it has no rational place among the ultimate constituents of nature." --Henry P. Stapp
Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance? Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along? Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos? Does God "play dice with the universe"?
Two of my childhood friends (one who became a geophysicist and the other a genetic engineer) mocked me in high school during just such a conversation when I came out with "Maybe the randomness of the universe is an order unto (or "in," I don't remember) itself." My eventual physicist friend said that there would not come a time, no matter how lengthy that "Light bulbs would eat dog legs on a Thursday." Fair enough.
Jump 23 years to my 40th birthday where I am being treated to a birthday meal at an Indian restaurant in Concord, New Hampshire by my physicist friend. We are again having a discussion where he is heatedly arguing cosmology and I am arguing for mythology, but both are descriptions of the universe taken through the thinking function and the intuitive function, respectively. The owner comes over to check us out, and I ask him if he has any Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khan (pop music is playing on the speakers). He just gasps and runs off. My friend says "Now look what you've done - insulted the man." But I knew better. He returns after putting on some sitar music and thanking me, and saying that he was at Ravi Shankar's flat in London earlier in the year. Wow! ANYWAY...we finish, pay at the register, walk out the front door and parked head-on, right outside the door is a car which the license plate that reads "COSMOS." HFS! Synchronicity right?! We marvel at that while walking down the sidewalk several cars past and LO! Another car parked near my friend's car has a license plate that reads "MYTHOS." That is my story that I offer to you in response to your question.
Just as one can see life through the lens of cosmology or mythology, you can likewise see life through randomness or order. But the inconceivable complexity of a human being, not to mention the complexity of the biosphere from which we emerged, and planetary rotation, revolution, axis pitch, and distance from its sun (just to give the most empirical examples), tells me that randomness, chance, mathematical probability (which is rather improbable to me) all point to order, meaning, teleology, and thence to Providence, Platonic Forms, the Tao, Consciousness, or just good old-fashioned GOD, as the Ultimate Reality immanent in and transcendent beyond existence.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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BrendanFlock
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The Human Eclipse!
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Two of my childhood friends (one who became a geophysicist and the other a genetic engineer) mocked me in high school during just such a conversation when I came out with "Maybe the randomness of the universe is an order unto (or "in," I don't remember) itself." My eventual physicist friend said that there would not come a time, no matter how lengthy that "Light bulbs would eat dog legs on a Thursday." Fair enough.
Jump 23 years to my 40th birthday where I am being treated to a birthday meal at an Indian restaurant in Concord, New Hampshire by my physicist friend. We are again having a discussion where he is heatedly arguing cosmology and I am arguing for mythology, but both are descriptions of the universe taken through the thinking function and the intuitive function, respectively. The owner comes over to check us out, and I ask him if he has any Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khan (pop music is playing on the speakers). He just gasps and runs off. My friend says "Now look what you've done - insulted the man." But I knew better. He returns after putting on some sitar music and thanking me, and saying that he was at Ravi Shankar's flat in London earlier in the year. Wow! ANYWAY...we finish, pay at the register, walk out the front door and parked head-on, right outside the door is a car which the license plate that reads "COSMOS." HFS! Synchronicity right?! We marvel at that while walking down the sidewalk several cars past and LO! Another car parked near my friend's car has a license plate that reads "MYTHOS." That is my story that I offer to you in response to your question.
Just as one can see life through the lens of cosmology or mythology, you can likewise see life through randomness or order. But the inconceivable complexity of a human being, not to mention the complexity of the biosphere from which we emerged, and planetary rotation, revolution, axis pitch, and distance from its sun (just to give the most empirical examples), tells me that randomness, chance, mathematical probability (which is rather improbable to me) all point to order, meaning, teleology, and thence to Providence, Platonic Forms, the Tao, Consciousness, or just good old-fashioned GOD, as the Ultimate Reality immanent in and transcendent beyond existence.
I'm pretty much with you. To me, randomness is merely a low degree of order. I see a subtle intelligence in Nature that is not the result of chance.
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redgreenvines
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licenses for thought
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laughingdog
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I see a subtle intelligence in Nature that is not the result of chance.
To me, you seem, to be indulging in duality.
your sentence implies intelligence is separate from nature.
How can awareness have any properties, if it is not an object?
Anecdotes are lots of fun. We all love stories (ie. myths). But as you know they do not equate to a formal or accurate ...
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DividedQuantum
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Why do you say that?
I don't think nature and intelligence are separate at all, to the contrary. I feel nature is intelligence. I think a kind of suffusing consciousness constitutes nature -- that the very fabric of spacetime is entwined with it. I do not personally think in dualistic terms about this at all. I don't think intelligence is a property of nature, I think it is the nature of nature itself. It has taken a lot of introspection to come to these views. I don't think they're especially anecdotal at all.
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laughingdog
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can there be intelligence without purpose? I don't think so. purpose would seem to imply duality, or one 'organizing force', acting on something else, to achieve (a) goals(s)
if there is only unity at a fundamental level it has no properties as there is no differentiation, no distinctions
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DividedQuantum
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Maybe.
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laughingdog
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Maybe.
sounds like like you can't fault the logic but don't like the conclusion?
Anyway you might find this interesting, over my head I think.
'The Jazz of Physics: The Secret Link Between Music and the Structure of the Universe' Hardcover – April 26, 2016 by Stephon Alexander (Author)
according to Amazon:
More than fifty years ago, John Coltrane drew the twelve musical notes in a circle and connected them by straight lines, forming a five-pointed star. Inspired by Einstein, Coltrane had put physics and geometry at the core of his music. Physicist and jazz musician Stephon Alexander returns the favor, using jazz to answer physics’ most vexing questions about the past and future of the universe.
Following the great minds that first drew the links between music and physics—a list including Pythagoras, Kepler, Newton, Einstein, and Rakim—The Jazz of Physics revisits the ancient realm where music, physics, and the cosmos were one. This cosmological journey accompanies Alexander’s own tale of struggling to reconcile his passion for music and physics, from taking music lessons as a boy in the Bronx to studying theoretical physics at Imperial College, London’s inner sanctum of string theory. Playing the saxophone and improvising with equations, Alexander uncovered the connection between the fundamental waves that make up sound and the fundamental waves that make up everything else. As he reveals, the ancient poetic idea of the “music of the spheres,” taken seriously, clarifies confounding issues in physics.
Whether you are more familiar with Brian Greene or Brian Eno, John Coltrane or John Wheeler, the Five Percent Nation or why the universe is less than five percent visible, there is a new discovery on every page. Covering the entire history of the universe from its birth to its fate, its structure on the smallest and largest scales, The Jazz of Physics will fascinate and inspire anyone interested in the mysteries of our universe, music, and life itself.
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DividedQuantum
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I say maybe because you may be right, or alternatively there may be more going on than what we think. I don't know, nobody does.
That book looks fascinating, I may have to get it.
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RJ Tubs 202


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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
To me, randomness is merely a low degree of order.
Are the grains of sand on a beach random? This is the kind of question I ask myself late at night 
But seriously, some really interesting points in this thread. I'm a bit stumped, and that's good.
Parts of the discussion remind me of Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker"
The nature of what appears to be purpose in life forms
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