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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23428143 - 07/10/16 12:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Even though we are all made of bread..the quality of the Bread type..is indeed a good Surgeon generals fortune..for which we would all eat the same..or look the same..so our features are neat and Novel..so that we can show people who we are..the bread of life is like a river..and inside that river..is a box..and that is where Quantum mechanics exists..inside a time barrier..which is a Great Barrier reef..towards the comming leaves of time..in trimmy tender..and understanding banter..the Honest and including election takes telemetry..and security inside and out..which is what a knot is..so that we can take a thing to its logical conclusion..means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23428506 - 07/10/16 06:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

the resolution of cause and effect ranges from sub-microscopic to distant macroscopic, all around and within us.
the range includes the strange and "unpredictable" complex behavior of humans.

And since we are all limited in how much we can model in our minds of what is happening at all micro and macro-scopic perspectives in reality as well as the chaotic dance of human minds, there is a huge undecidable - unknowable - curtain of uncertainty that describes if not governs what happens.

what is not random chance is pure fate, but the curtain of uncertainty puts any support of the idea of fate into the category of faith.

But also if you have faith in fate, you ignore the principle of uncertainty where-in no-one could predict, the merest fart of a butterfly that could deflect the thought of a child and engage the action of a parent to distract the attention of a bus driver who could crash into a shopping center and run over the robot that carries c-4 to stop a sniper....


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23429589 - 07/10/16 03:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!




survive? who is surviving what and for how long? What a short sighted and introverted view.

reminds me of the joke about the aliens in the UFO who come and view earth and report back and say:

"The dominant life form is automobiles, and they have these funny squishy
things with legs and arms to maintain, pamper, & exercise them"


Edited by laughingdog (07/10/16 03:06 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23430219 - 07/10/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

rAQN
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
means you have to do allot of drugs to survive in this world..and that is what Brendan Flock means!




survive? who is surviving what and for how long? What a short sighted and introverted view.

reminds me of the joke about the aliens in the UFO who come and view earth and report back and say:

"The dominant life form is automobiles, and they have these funny squishy
things with legs and arms to maintain, pamper, & exercise them"




LoL!!!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Random chance? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23431781 - 07/11/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

yes

it's a funny switch


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23435008 - 07/12/16 01:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"'Naught happens for nothing, but everything from a ground and of necessity' (Leucippus; see, e.g., Russell).  This is the law of necessity.  Some writers claim to be comfortable with the idea that there is in nature, at its most basic level, an irreducible element of chance.  I, however, find unthinkable the idea that between two possibilities there can be a choice having no basis whatsoever.  Chance is an idea useful for dealing with a world partly unknown to us.  But it has no rational place among the ultimate constituents of nature."  --Henry P. Stapp


Do you feel natural events are a roll of the dice -- pure chance?  Or is there some orderly force at the bottom of things guiding us along?  Which force do you feel is stronger -- order or chaos?  Does God "play dice with the universe"?




Two of my childhood friends (one who became a geophysicist and the other a genetic engineer) mocked me in high school during just such a conversation when I came out with "Maybe the randomness of the universe is an order unto (or "in," I don't remember) itself." My eventual physicist friend said that there would not come a time, no matter how lengthy that "Light bulbs would eat dog legs on a Thursday." Fair enough.

Jump 23 years to my 40th birthday where I am being treated to a birthday meal at an Indian restaurant in Concord, New Hampshire by my physicist friend. We are again having a discussion where he is heatedly arguing cosmology and I am arguing for mythology, but both are descriptions of the universe taken through the thinking function and the intuitive function, respectively. The owner comes over to check us out, and I ask him if he has any Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khan (pop music is playing on the speakers). He just gasps and runs off. My friend says "Now look what you've done - insulted the man." But I knew better. He returns after putting on some sitar music and thanking me, and saying that he was at Ravi Shankar's flat in London earlier in the year. Wow! ANYWAY...we  finish, pay at the register, walk out the front door and parked head-on, right outside the door is a car which the license plate that reads "COSMOS." HFS! Synchronicity right?! We marvel at that while walking down the sidewalk several cars past and LO! Another car parked near my friend's car has a  license plate that reads "MYTHOS." :eek:  :whoah: That is my story that I offer to you in response to your question.

Just as one can see life through the lens of cosmology or mythology, you can likewise see life through randomness or order. But the inconceivable complexity of a human being, not to mention the complexity of the biosphere from which we emerged, and planetary rotation, revolution, axis pitch, and distance from its sun (just to give the most empirical examples), tells me that randomness, chance, mathematical probability (which is rather improbable to me) all point to order, meaning, teleology, and thence to Providence, Platonic Forms, the Tao, Consciousness, or just good old-fashioned GOD, as the Ultimate Reality immanent in and transcendent beyond existence.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Random chance? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23435114 - 07/12/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The Human Eclipse!


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Random chance? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23435388 - 07/12/16 04:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Two of my childhood friends (one who became a geophysicist and the other a genetic engineer) mocked me in high school during just such a conversation when I came out with "Maybe the randomness of the universe is an order unto (or "in," I don't remember) itself." My eventual physicist friend said that there would not come a time, no matter how lengthy that "Light bulbs would eat dog legs on a Thursday." Fair enough.

Jump 23 years to my 40th birthday where I am being treated to a birthday meal at an Indian restaurant in Concord, New Hampshire by my physicist friend. We are again having a discussion where he is heatedly arguing cosmology and I am arguing for mythology, but both are descriptions of the universe taken through the thinking function and the intuitive function, respectively. The owner comes over to check us out, and I ask him if he has any Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khan (pop music is playing on the speakers). He just gasps and runs off. My friend says "Now look what you've done - insulted the man." But I knew better. He returns after putting on some sitar music and thanking me, and saying that he was at Ravi Shankar's flat in London earlier in the year. Wow! ANYWAY...we  finish, pay at the register, walk out the front door and parked head-on, right outside the door is a car which the license plate that reads "COSMOS." HFS! Synchronicity right?! We marvel at that while walking down the sidewalk several cars past and LO! Another car parked near my friend's car has a  license plate that reads "MYTHOS." :eek:  :whoah: That is my story that I offer to you in response to your question.

Just as one can see life through the lens of cosmology or mythology, you can likewise see life through randomness or order. But the inconceivable complexity of a human being, not to mention the complexity of the biosphere from which we emerged, and planetary rotation, revolution, axis pitch, and distance from its sun (just to give the most empirical examples), tells me that randomness, chance, mathematical probability (which is rather improbable to me) all point to order, meaning, teleology, and thence to Providence, Platonic Forms, the Tao, Consciousness, or just good old-fashioned GOD, as the Ultimate Reality immanent in and transcendent beyond existence.




I'm pretty much with you.  To me, randomness is merely a low degree of order.  I see a subtle intelligence in Nature that is not the result of chance.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Random chance? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23435446 - 07/12/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

licenses for thought


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23438387 - 07/13/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I see a subtle intelligence in Nature that is not the result of chance.




To me, you seem, to be indulging in duality.

your sentence implies intelligence is separate from nature.

How can awareness have any properties, if it is not an object?

Anecdotes are lots of fun. We all love stories (ie. myths).
But as you know they do not equate to a formal or accurate ...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23438412 - 07/13/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Why do you say that?

I don't think nature and intelligence are separate at all, to the contrary.  I feel nature is intelligence.  I think a kind of suffusing consciousness constitutes nature -- that the very fabric of spacetime is entwined with it.  I do not personally think in dualistic terms about this at all.  I don't think intelligence is a property of nature, I think it is the nature of nature itself.  It has taken a lot of introspection to come to these views.  I don't think they're especially anecdotal at all.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23439620 - 07/14/16 12:02 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

can there be intelligence without purpose?
I don't think so.
purpose would seem to imply duality, or
one 'organizing force', acting on something else, to achieve (a) goals(s)

if there is only unity at a fundamental level
it has no properties
as there is no differentiation, no distinctions


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23440222 - 07/14/16 08:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23446928 - 07/16/16 02:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Maybe.




sounds like like you can't fault the logic but don't like the conclusion?

Anyway you might find this interesting, over my head I think.


'The Jazz of Physics: The Secret Link Between Music and the Structure of the Universe' Hardcover – April 26, 2016
by Stephon Alexander (Author)

according to Amazon:

More than fifty years ago, John Coltrane drew the twelve musical notes in a circle and connected them by straight lines, forming a five-pointed star. Inspired by Einstein, Coltrane had put physics and geometry at the core of his music. Physicist and jazz musician Stephon Alexander returns the favor, using jazz to answer physics’ most vexing questions about the past and future of the universe.

Following the great minds that first drew the links between music and physics—a list including Pythagoras, Kepler, Newton, Einstein, and Rakim—The Jazz of Physics revisits the ancient realm where music, physics, and the cosmos were one. This cosmological journey accompanies Alexander’s own tale of struggling to reconcile his passion for music and physics, from taking music lessons as a boy in the Bronx to studying theoretical physics at Imperial College, London’s inner sanctum of string theory. Playing the saxophone and improvising with equations, Alexander uncovered the connection between the fundamental waves that make up sound and the fundamental waves that make up everything else. As he reveals, the ancient poetic idea of the “music of the spheres,” taken seriously, clarifies confounding issues in physics.

Whether you are more familiar with Brian Greene or Brian Eno, John Coltrane or John Wheeler, the Five Percent Nation or why the universe is less than five percent visible, there is a new discovery on every page. Covering the entire history of the universe from its birth to its fate, its structure on the smallest and largest scales, The Jazz of Physics will fascinate and inspire anyone interested in the mysteries of our universe, music, and life itself.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Random chance? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23446965 - 07/16/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I say maybe because you may be right, or alternatively there may be more going on than what we think.  I don't know, nobody does.

That book looks fascinating, I may have to get it. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Random chance? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23454313 - 07/18/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

To me, randomness is merely a low degree of order. 





Are the grains of sand on a beach random? This is the kind of question I ask myself late at night  :smile:

But seriously, some really interesting points in this thread. I'm a bit stumped, and that's good.

Parts of the discussion remind me of Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker"

The nature of what appears to be purpose in life forms


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